hCG seems to be ineffective on EOD Protocol!

[bass]

guys, since i started doing eod test/hCG alternating days my boys haven't been themselves, to be blunt I've noticed a significant shrinkage, they seems to be hard but size wise they are getting smaller and smaller. when i switched to eod i was doing 250 IU, then 4 weeks ago i upped it to 300 iu eod but no improvement. i am thinking of going back to my previous protocol, i feel great with the exception of testicular shrinkage.

this is what i want to switch to,

500 iu hCG Saturday morning
50 mgs test Sunday morning
0.25 MG AI Monday
500 iu hCG Tuesday evening
50 mgs test Wednesday evening
0.25 mg AI Thursday

and idea as to why my boys aren't responding to the eod protocol? Thanks!

[SEOINAGE]

Good question, I am only doing 250x2 a week and seems to work fine, but i especially like a fresh batch of hcg. I did try slightly less on an eod, and it didn't work for me either, i don't know why, my total for the week was higher.

[bass]

thanks for the reply SEOINAGE, i was thinking my hCG was bad, but since you've experienced the same thing maybe eod is not a good protocol for hCG!

[SEOINAGE]

thanks for the reply SEOINAGE, i was thinking my hCG was bad, but since you've experienced the same thing maybe eod is not a good protocol for hCG!

Would be nice to see more evidence from studies.

[steroid.com 1]

Would be nice to see more evidence from studies.

It would be nice but the way we are using hCG off label so very little if anything from an empirical perspective.

I am sitting here trying to rationalize why 250iu EOD would have impact on Testicular health versus 500iu twice a week.

I get it on a once a week IM Testosterone protocol but still don't know why there would be any difference.

bass, where are you purchasing your hCG?

[keep fightin]

weird, as I've said before, Bass, thank you for being on the front lines! I have avoided some problems simply by watching how it went for you first and then seeing if GD or our other detectives has a theory! many will want to coax an answer out for this one..have you been getting the HCG from same source? Maybe the rest of you is just getting so big and buff that it only seems like the boys are lagging!

[steroid.com 1]

From my own experience I used to do 250iu EOD and reduced to 250iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday only my boys are plump, ripe and doing their thing; meaning natural production.

My hCG is compounded by a very reputable pharma.

[APIs]

From my own experience I used to do 250iu EOD and reduced to 250iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday only my boys are plump, ripe and doing their thing; meaning natural production.

My hCG is compounded by a very reputable pharma.

I switched to 250 iu M, W & F also and seem to be doing better in the nut-sack department. Think I actually feel better too for what it's worth...

[fit2bOld]

I'm on the 250 iu M,W,F with good results. I was at 500 iu but drove my free test a bit high. My Dr. likes me to take a week off every 3-4 month to give the receptors a rest.

Just my 2 cents.

[bass]

It would be nice but the way we are using hCG off label so very little if anything from an empirical perspective.

I am sitting here trying to rationalize why 250iu EOD would have impact on Testicular health versus 500iu twice a week.

I get it on a once a week IM Testosterone protocol but still don't know why there would be any difference.

bass, where are you purchasing your hCG?

GD, my hCG always came from the same clinic and from the same compounding pharmacy. the last three vials seem to do nothing in terms of keeping my boys feeling normal size. at one point i thought the boys were going to explode they were getting so hard and plumped, but when i switched to eod thats when it started to go downhill!

[EZ E]

250 IU on MWF here as well. 1.5 years and the boys are still doing fine.

[ecdysone]

I'm thinking is an issue of receptor desensitization where higher peak levels are required to elicit the HCG response.

I mentioned sometime back that permanent desensitization does not seem to occur with HCG, meaning if you stop for a bit and then resume everything reverts back. However, short term desensitization, especially since you take it regularly may be the problem.

Like fit2bOld mentioned that his Dr. likes him to take a break, that might not be such a bad idea for you. Maybe a week or two off and then start again.

[bass]

thanks ECD and the rest. i have a feeling this is whats going on. so how long should i stop, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, and should i increase my test dose while off hcg?

[ecdysone]

Good question. I would say the longer the better.

The only studies I remember (and it's been awhile so my brain is not so fresh), the study guys were off for several months.

I wouldn't do anything regarding your test dosage - worse case scenario, your test levels may drop a bit but probably nothing you will notice.

[Babyslim]

This is a great thread. Id be interested in seeing the current protocols of more members.

[bass]

damn i just mixed 500 ius few days ago, i guess I'll finish it then take off for a while.

[oscarjones]

Down-regulation of your luteinizing hormone receptor (LHR) seems to be your issue!

Read this study, please. It indicates that supplementing with Type-1 IGF may work at enhancing up-regulation of hCG induced by steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR) gene expression. I think this relates to your possible down-regulation issue, if I'm not mistaken. However, it is late so forgive me if this scientific jargon fails at providing correlation.


Upregulation of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin-induced Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein by Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1 in Rat Leydig Cells.

Tu Lin, Deli Wang, Jianxin Hu and Douglas M. Stocco

Abstract
Insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) plays an essential role in reproductive function. Leydig cells express specific IGF-I receptors, and IGF-I enhances human chorionic gonadorphin (hCG)-induced testosterone formation. In the present study, we evaluate the effect of IGF-I on the gene expression and protein levels of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR), the rate-limiting step in steroidogenesis. StAR mRNA is expressed in rat Leydig cells as two major transcripts of 3.8 and 1.7 kb. StAR mRNA levels (both 3.8 and 1.7 kb) were markedly induced about 20-fold by hCG (10 ng/mL). Concomitant addition of IGF-I (50 or 100 ng/mL) and hCG (10 ng/mL) resulted in significant increases in StAR and cytochrome P450 side-chain cleavage (P450scc) mRNA levels, whereas lower doses of IGF-I (1 or 10 ng/mL) had small effects. Synergistic effects of IGF-I and hCG on StAR mRNA levels were confirmed by ribonuclease protection assay (RPA). IGF-I (100 ng/mL) enhanced hCG- and 20 OH-cholesterol + hCG-induced testosterone formation, whereas the conversions of pregnenolone, 17-OH pregnenolone, dehydroepiandrosterone, and androstenedione to testosterone were not affected. This suggests that the major effect of IGF-I is at the steps of StAR and P450scc, whereas other steroidogenic enzymes are not affected. To evaluate whether increased StAR mRNA levels induced by IGF-I and hCG are associated with increased StAR protein levels, we carried out Western blot analyses. Basal StAR protein levels were low after 24 h in culture. hCG (10 ng/mL) increased StAR protein by 4.5-fold. In the presence of IGF-I (100 ng/mL), hCG-induced StAR protein levels were further increased. In conclusion, our present study demonstrated that IGF-I enhances Leydig cell steroidogenesis by upregulating hCG-induced StAR gene expression and protein production.

Cited by:
Gancarczyk, Monika (2006) Aromatization and antioxidant capacity in the testis of seasonally breeding bank voles: Effects of LH, PRL and IGF-I. Theriogenology 65(7)

Wuertz, S. (2007) Expression of IGF-I and IGF-I receptor in male and female sterlet, Acipenser ruthenus — Evidence for an important role in gonad maturation. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology - Part A Molecular & Integrative Physiology 147(1)

Ditchkoff, Stephen S (2001) Concentrations of insulin-like growth factor-I in adult male white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus): associations with serum testosterone, morphometrics and age during and after the breeding season. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology - Part A Molecular & Integrative Physiology 129(4)

Wang, Yubang (2006) Low concentrations mono-butyl phthalate stimulates steroidogenesis by facilitating steroidogenic acute regulatory protein expression in mouse Leydig tumor cells (MLTC-1). Chemico-Biological Interactions 164(1-2)

Kim, Jin Hyun (2003) Suppression by ethanol of male reproductive activity. Brain Research 989(1)

Ramdhan, Doni Hikmat (2009) Nanoparticle-rich diesel exhaust may disrupt testosterone biosynthesis and metabolism via growth hormone. Toxicology Letters 191(2-3)

Roy, Vikas Kumar (2010) Role of leptin in seasonal adiposity associated changes in testicular activity of vespertilionid bat, Scotophilus heathi. General and Comparative Endocrinology 168(1)

Reinhart, Adam J. (1999) Transcriptional regulation of the StAR gene. Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 151(1-2)

Wang, Yu-Bang (2007) Monobutyl Phthalate Inhibits Steroidogenesis by Downregulating Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein Expression in Mouse Leydig Tumor Cells (MLTC-1). Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health Part A 70(11)

Lackey, B (1999) The insulin-like growth factor (IGF) system and gonadotropin regulation: actions and interactions. Cytokine & Growth Factor Reviews 10(3-4)

Manna, Pulak R. (2004) Detection of hCG Responsive Expression of the Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein in Mouse Leydig Cells. Biological Procedures Online 6(1)

Stocco, Douglas M (2001) StAR PROTEIN AND THE REGULATION OF STEROID HORMONE BIOSYNTHESIS. Annual Review of Physiology 63(1)

Krug, A W (2007) Human adipocytes induce an ERK1/2 MAP kinases-mediated upregulation of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR) and an angiotensin II — sensitization in human adrenocortical cells. International Journal of Obesity 31(10)

Colón, Eugenia (2006) Anti-apoptotic factor humanin is expressed in the testis and prevents cell-death in leydig cells during the first wave of spermatogenesis. Journal of Cellular Physiology 208(2)

[steroid.com 1]

I'm thinking is an issue of receptor desensitization where higher peak levels are required to elicit the HCG response.

I mentioned sometime back that permanent desensitization does not seem to occur with HCG, meaning if you stop for a bit and then resume everything reverts back. However, short term desensitization, especially since you take it regularly may be the problem.

Like fit2bOld mentioned that his Dr. likes him to take a break, that might not be such a bad idea for you. Maybe a week or two off and then start again.

Desensitization has, historically, been associated with higher dosage amounts over time.

That being said, I think what you state in your second sentence ecd has some merit for some men...but not all.

bass was not been injecting high amounts of hCG even on a EOD basis.

In fact, it could be argued that the two shots of 500iu could bang the boys much harder than the 250iu EOD...that's the mystery here.

I suspect the quality of the hCG first to be honest...compounding pharmacies do make mistakes.

I may try a week off to see what happens...I find this concept of taking a short break of interest...so let's see how I feel.

Good thread...thanks B!

[Vettester]

Bass, on a side note, weren't you getting ready to run some labs again due to some high E2 increases? I'll have to go back and refresh the thread. I think I've got a prediction on where you were heading. It would be good to revisit that thread.

On the HCG vials ... Run it on some pregnancy test kits and see if it comes back +. You can always drop em by my place in CA and I'll let the nutomemeter tell the potency .... Staff special for my close friends I'm one that's not overly sold with HCG getting people desensitized, especially at low dosages. More in tune that maybe it was handled at room temperature too long, or the powder was bunk, or mishandled roughly during reconstitution.

[bass]

at first i thought it was bunk, i think ill order new hcg from india and see if that makes adifference, but ill take a break for at least two weeks until i get the new hcg. i have taken a break before due to traveling and it didnt change anything, my boys kept going strong, it just when i switched to eod protocol things changed!

thanks for the tip Vette ill get a preg test and report back.

[bass]

btw Vette, i will be doing blood work 4 weeks from now.

[Vettester]

^^ Noted, bass. Thanks!!

[oscarjones]

I'd love to see your prolactin and FSH levels if possible.

[bass]

why fsh? i been on TRT for over a year, my fsh is pretty much shutdown, it'll be a waist of money. i think Vette had a good idea testing my hCG with a pregnancy test kit to see if the hCG is good, if so then ECD's theory being desensitized maybe correct!

[Renholder]

Very interesting.

So, no other differences beyond testicular shrinkage?

I`m currently on 200 IU, MWF, but may be interested in trying your twice weekly protocol and see if it makes a difference. Probably not that high a dose though.

[oscarjones]

why fsh? i been on TRT for over a year, my fsh is pretty much shutdown, it'll be a waist of money. i think Vette had a good idea testing my hCG with a pregnancy test kit to see if the hCG is good, if so then ECD's theory being desensitized maybe correct!

That might be your issue bass. FSH and LH work in synergy to help with upregulation of LHR.

FSH enhances the production of androgen-binding protein by the Sertoli cells of the testes, and is critical for spermatogenesis.

[oscarjones]

That might be your issue bass. FSH and LH work in synergy to help with upregulation of LHR.

Another thing to look into is HMG, but that costs an arm and a leg, so I didn't want to recommend it. However, there have been positive reported results with the supplementation of HMG vs HCG for those suffering from your type of situation.

[ecdysone]

Another thing to look into is HMG, but that costs an arm and a leg, so I didn't want to recommend it. However, there have been positive reported results with the supplementation of HMG vs HCG for those suffering from your type of situation.

Not at all. As a matter of fact I just ordered some to try a 4 week experiment: HMG + low dose HCG (for the LH mimic).

Referring upthread, I believe you realize that Bass' FSH will be approx. zero, thereby indicating his endogenous production is the same.

[Vettester]

I'd love to see your prolactin and FSH levels if possible.

Agree with bass, that would just be a waste of time and $$.

Bass, do you want kids?? If not, then no need to mess with the HMG.

[ecdysone]

then no need to mess with the HMG.

...maybe, maybe not. I like the thought of restoring the "boys" to their God-intended potential! !

For that, you'll need both FSH/LH (e.g., HMG + HCG)

[oscarjones]

Agree with bass, that would just be a waste of time and $$.

Bass, do you want kids?? If not, then no need to mess with the HMG.

You missed the point. It was more dimensional. FSH isn't only necessary for reproduction, it's necessary for the healthy function of luteinizing hormone/choriogonadotropin receptor specifically those found within the testis.

[Vettester]

...maybe, maybe not. I like the thought of restoring the "boys" to their God-intended potential! !

For that, you'll need both FSH/LH (e.g., HMG + HCG)

Not true

[ecdysone]

You missed the point. It was more dimensional. FSH isn't only necessary for reproduction, it's necessary for the healthy function of luteinizing hormone/choriogonadotropin receptor specifically those found within the testis.

It's what I've been saying....

OTOH, I have to admit that a bunch of guys who inject women's piss extract [you recombinant LH guys excepted] into themselves with great regularity have less than perfect credibility.

[oscarjones]

It's what I've been saying....

OTOH, I have to admit that a bunch of guys who inject women's piss extract [you recombinant LH guys excepted] into themselves with great regularity have less than perfect credibility.

Hahaha, right! Can we just have our women pee on us?

[jamotech]

guys, since i started doing eod test/hCG alternating days my boys haven't been themselves, to be blunt I've noticed a significant shrinkage, they seems to be hard but size wise they are getting smaller and smaller. when i switched to eod i was doing 250 IU, then 4 weeks ago i upped it to 300 iu eod but no improvement. i am thinking of going back to my previous protocol, i feel great with the exception of testicular shrinkage.

this is what i want to switch to,

500 iu hCG Saturday morning
50 mgs test Sunday morning
0.25 MG AI Monday
500 iu hCG Tuesday evening
50 mgs test Wednesday evening
0.25 mg AI Thursday

and idea as to why my boys aren't responding to the eod protocol? Thanks!

If after 300 iu eod you dont see improvement id think your hcg may be bad, when did you last reconstitute your vial?

[bass]

If after 300 iu eod you dont see improvement id think your hcg may be bad, when did you last reconstitute your vial?

im on my third vial and no change!

[keep fightin]

always trust the nutometer!

[Vettester]

You missed the point. It was more dimensional. FSH isn't only necessary for reproduction, it's necessary for the healthy function of luteinizing hormone/choriogonadotropin receptor specifically those found within the testis.

I hear what you're saying. However, instead of dimensional, I'll try to put it in perspective ... I've been taking HCG for several years now. When I take it steadily (3x per week), my testes go from Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll. My doctor states that I have the nads of a 20 yo when my regiment is consistent; minus the sperm production, which actually BTW life did find a way, as I had motile sperm in lab taken 1-1/2 ago. Not much mind you, but there were some live ones.

Anyways, my testicles experience hypertrophy, my climaxes are off the scale, a la Peter North, and the pain in my left testicle evaporates. And again, MY DOCTOR says I have the nads of a 20 year old minus the sperm. So tell me where I'm missing out by not incorporating the FSH analogue into my program. Will it stimulate the leydigs beyond what they are getting alone from just the LH analogue?

HMG is a GREAT product from what I have read, no doubt about it. However, I don't want sperm! I would venture to say that 70% of the guys on our HRT forum don't want spermatogenesis either. Take out the sperm factor, what benefits will I see that I don't already get? My testicles are not going to grow anymore, nor would I want them to.

From your medical expertise, what am I missing out on by not having FSH, besides the obvious? What neglect is happening to my choriogonadotropin receptors that's keeping me from achieving optimal testicular health (that I am told by a doctor that I have)? Again, no kids needed. 45 yo and we like our lifestyle just the way it is.

[oscarjones]

I hear what you're saying. However, instead of dimensional, I'll try to put it in perspective ... I've been taking HCG for several years now. When I take it steadily (3x per week), my testes go from Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll. My doctor states that I have the nads of a 20 yo when my regiment is consistent; minus the sperm production, which actually BTW life did find a way, as I had motile sperm in lab taken 1-1/2 ago. Not much mind you, but there were some live ones.

Anyways, my testicles experience hypertrophy, my climaxes are off the scale, a la Peter North, and the pain in my left testicle evaporates. And again, MY DOCTOR says I have the nads of a 20 year old minus the sperm. So tell me where I'm missing out by not incorporating the FSH analogue into my program. Will it stimulate the leydigs beyond what they are getting alone from just the LH analogue?

HMG is a GREAT product from what I have read, no doubt about it. However, I don't want sperm! I would venture to say that 70% of the guys on our HRT forum don't want spermatogenesis either. Take out the sperm factor, what benefits will I see that I don't already get? My testicles are not going to grow anymore, nor would I want them to.

From your medical expertise, what am I missing out on by not having FSH, besides the obvious? What neglect is happening to my choriogonadotropin receptors that's keeping me from achieving optimal testicular health (that I am told by a doctor that I have)? Again, no kids needed. 45 yo and we like our lifestyle just the way it is.

I understand. It's not so much what you are missing, as to what bass is needing. I agree with you on the "don't fix what isn't broken" mentality, and I only suggested the possibility to bass about FSH and HMG based on medical journals, and because he's having (what we all seem to agree appear to be downregulation) problems. So, my efforts are only to assist him in his efforts to, obviously, attain what you and your doctor have deemed to be "20 year old nads". Any further research into this subject would be intriguing if a scenario of unequivocal proof can be affirmed, such as bass' his hCG being bunk.

[bass]

[QUOTE=vetteman08;6039293]my testes go from Mr. Hyde to Dr. JekyllQUOTE]

thats fvcking hilarious!!!