***Grilla BW on TRT***

[grilla]

I am 41yo, ~6ft, 230lb, ~13%bf...started TRT five weeks ago. 100mg test cyp once a
week (single pin). History of AAS use 20 years ago with no PCT.

Test wasn't super low (446 on a 249.0-836.0 scale, free t was 10 on a 7.2-23 scale),
libido very good but I was having trouble leaning up, lifts in a slow but steady decline,
generally feeling like I was getting old, etc.

The BW below was taken on a Friday morning, five days after my fourth injection ( I pin
on Sunday mornings).

I have felt incredible since starting TRT...ridiculously good, really.

I did start HCG (250iu 2x/wk) last Friday before my fifth pin but after the BW was taken.
I felt great but based on gdevine's excellent post and research supporting the same, I
thought it best to put my balls back to work.

I plan to update this thread with BW and general observations. Thank you for any and all
comments.

grilla

June 22, 2012 BW

TSH 1.110 0.450-4.500
Thyroxine (T4) 8.6 4.5-12.0
T3 Uptake 34 24-39
Free Thyroxine Index 2.9 1.2-4.9

Testosterone, serum 1004 348-1197
Free Test (Direct) 31.2 high 6.8-21.5
IGF-1 299 high 101-267
Estradiol, sensitive 26 3-70

PSA, serum 0.8 0.0-4.0

WBC 6.2 4.0-10.5
RBC 4.95 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 14.4 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 3.2 37.5-51.0
MCV 87 79-97
MCH 29.1 26.6-33.0
MCHC 33.3 31.5-35.7
RDW 14.3 12.3-15.4
Platelets 236 140-415
Neutrophils 62 40-74
Lymphs 30 14-46
Monocytes 7 4-13
Eos 1 0-7
Basos 0 0-3
Neutrophils(abs) 3.8 1.7-7.8
Lymphs(abs) 1.9 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(abs) 0.4 0.1-1.0
Eos(abs) 0.1 0.0-0.4
Baso(abs) 0.0 0.0-0.2

Glucose, Serum 90 65-99
BUN 27 high 6-24
Creatinine,serum 1.16 0.76-1.27
eGFR 78 >59
BUN/creatinine ratio 23 high 9-20
Sodium, serum 140 134-144
Potassium, serum 4.5 3.5-5.2
Chloride, serum 101 97-108
Carbon Dioxide,total 23 20-32
Calcium, serum 9.6 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, serum 7.3 6.0-8.5
Albumin, serum 4.4 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.9 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.5 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.7 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase 59 25-150
ALT (SGOT) 25 0-40
ALT(SGPT) 27 0-55

Cholesterol, total 215 high 100-199
Triglycerides 85 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 42 >39
VLDL Cholesterol 17 5-40
LDL Cholesterol 156 high 0-99 *an earlier test showed my LDL to be the large
fluffy type based on size

[bass]

looks great! what is your current protocol? if i were you I'd bring down free T within range, its okay for a short time but not long term. your HDL needs some improving, get omega 3 and maybe integrate oats into your diet. your PSA although in range is a tad high for your age, so keep an eye on it. your RBC and Hemo are still in very healthy range, but they may start to go up as you continue TRT, so donating is a must when the time comes. glad you're feeling good, thats the idea.

[vinceproduction]

Bass, what would free being high do long term?

[bass]

Bass, what would free being high do long term?

too much of anything for too long could cause a chain reaction to other hormones, for example RBC, Hemoglobin, Hematocrit, E2, Liver and Kidney function, DHT, Prostate (PSA), and the list goes on. keep in mind TRT is meant for optimal health, so keeping levels within range is the key to a healthy you.

[vinceproduction]

too much of anything for too long could cause a chain reaction to other hormones, for example RBC, Hemoglobin, Hematocrit, E2, Liver and Kidney function, DHT, Prostate (PSA), and the list goes on. keep in mind TRT is meant for optimal health, so keeping levels within range is the key to a healthy you.

Makes a lot of sense. I was just curious. Good info!

[APIs]

Officially, there's no data to state that it would do anything.

[kelkel]

Glad for you Grilla. Keep an eye on your E2 so it doesn't continually rise. Perfect right now.

[grilla]

Bass: Protocol is 100mg test cyp once a week (single pin), and 250iu hcg twice a week.
I started the hcg last week AFTER blood was drawn for the BW above.

Kel: I suspect that E2 is rising. I added hcg to the mix last week after the blood draw
and feel like I'm holding water. BP starting to creep.

I've ordered arimidex. How long should I run the hcg before checking E2 again
and adding the arimidex if necessary?

grilla

[600@50]

Looks good Grilla. I agree with Kel about watching the E2. As the HGC starts to work your test levels will rise more along with the E2. Maybe take some saw palmetto for the PSA. What is your weekly TRT dosage?

[grilla]

600: 100mg test cyp once a week (single pin).

[steroid.com 1]

What bass said; but you look great to tell you the truth.

PSA is a bit high but that's because you just started TRT...in time it will come back to base line...it's normal.

There's new thought on HDL these days...like it's not as bad as every one once thought...so don't worry too much about it; but bass is totally correct on the fish oils. Here quality is worth every penny so check out www.lef.org and get their best.

Now that you started hCG get BW again in about 4 to 6 weeks and see where you stand.

I'd wait for BW before starting and AI but if you do see more neg sides of higher E2 consider starting with .25mg twice a week 24 hours after each test injection...if your injecting twice a week. If not then .50mg once a week.

[Bigfoot66]

When I went for my annual PSA appt. this year, my PSA went from 1.5 to 1.0 (I'm 46), and he told me that I was spot on for my age. I didn't know it, but the annual "exam" is no longer recommended by the AMA. Supposedly if your PSA is within range of X and X he can forego the other part. Wants to see me again in 6 months. I can't tell you how fast I bulleted out of that office...

[bullshark99]

^^^^^^ I have researched that as well and have come up empty. I do disagree (respectfully) with a few above, nothing wrong with a PSA @ .8 Hell thats below ONE! What gd said however, I noticed myself, when first went on TRT my PSA did rise then later returned to baseline.

[APIs]

^^^^^^ I have researched that as well and have come up empty. I do disagree (respectfully) with a few above, nothing wrong with a PSA @ .8 Hell thats below ONE! What gd said however, I noticed myself, when first went on TRT my PSA did rise then later returned to baseline.

Exactly. We need to be careful about preaching what "we" consider to be true when in fact there's no data out there supporting said statement(s).

[600@50]

^^^^^^ I have researched that as well and have come up empty. I do disagree (respectfully) with a few above, nothing wrong with a PSA @ .8 Hell thats below ONE! What gd said however, I noticed myself, when first went on TRT my PSA did rise then later returned to baseline.

I agree .8 PSA isn't bad but I'm 51, been on TRT since 1994 and my PSA is .4 so in all seriousness take a look at the saw palmetto for the prostate. It's preventative but it's worked well for me.

[kelkel]

Since 94! Damn. That's one of the longest I've seen. How has your protocol evolved over time? Very interesting to me!

[ecdysone]

With regard to PSA it is also quite likely it is suppressed by a hypogonadal state and would be expected to significantly increase after TRT. It could easily double and may/may not drop back to basline with continued TRT.

Mostly it is the annual increase that is the better diagnostic of PSA health.

grilla: what was your hematocrit value?

[grilla]

ecd: hematocrit 43.2 on a 37.5-51.0 range.

grilla

[bass]

guys you don't have to have evidence to have commonsense! having said that we do have hard evidence that high test levels can do harm to the body, as i have mentioned above, RBC, Hemoglobin, Hematocrit are a fact that they go up in levels while injecting testosterone, thank God we have a remedy to take care of that, donating blood! also a known fact that e2 goes way up if not treated, gyno, prostate cancer and so on. just because we can donate blood, take AI and hCG to keep things in check it doesn't mean it has no sides. we all know TRT can have some negative sides, thats why we take other meds to balance things out. here is a question, is it safe to have 2500 on scale 350-1200 test levels all the time? balance is the key!

[zaggahamma]

like those numbers

even the igf

btw, i wanna change my screen name to grilla

[bass]

its taken, so use grillb, and i'll use grillc!

[ecdysone]

We've talked about this before, but he's an interesting article saying there is no correlation between test levels and prostate cancer:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/...-Cancer_01.htm

Funny thing, though: there's not complete agreement on what "low" test is, level-wise, and probably even much less what constitutes "high" test!

We know >1000 is above the "normal" levels, but is 1500-2000 OK?

And should we be more concerned about high total or free?

[bass]

good questions! prostate cancer was linked more to high e2, and because TRT raises your e2 therefore it could be a concern if not treated. taking too much of anything is no good anyway, so why risk it. how many of us here were prescribed high end TRT dose but they only do half?! many of us, and why did we reduce the dose, because we didn't like the sides.

[600@50]

Actually Kel it has evolved very little. I was diagnosed with low T at age 33. I don't recall the original numbers but they were in range just on the low side. My endo understood that I was powerlifting and was cool with giving me 200 mg of TE every 2 weeks. This progressed to every 10 days and then to every week over several years. I was giving my self the injections and would "save up" and run sort of run mini cycles of 300-400mg a week for a couple of months and then go back to 100-150 a week to let the blood levels settle out before my yearly check up. I have never used an AI until recently when doing full blast and cruise cycles of 750 mg TE and returning to the cruise of 200 a week. I have no gyno, no high bp, no prostate issues, really in great shape for 51. The only issues are high RBC, hemocrit and high LDL when on the blast. E2 was kept normal right in the middle of Labcorps range with adex. I don't sleep real well but still do ok. Overall TRT has not been a problem at all. The boys are shrunk but I still have sex a couple times a week with no problems. I hear all the problems that some guys are having on TRT and to be honest I have had none of them. I wish more guys could experience to good effects of TRT.

[grilla]

Wow. I appreciate all the great responses and dialogue here! Had there been forums like this when I was 15, I probably wouldn't have made a lot of the mistakes with AAS that I did (in reality, I probably would have...man, I was hard-headed.)

I definitely feel awesome at these numbers. I know some are a bit high. And possibly higher now with the addition of HCG. I'm going to check BW again three weeks from now and see what things look like. I am anticipating
dropping my weekly test cyp a bit to keep the numbers close to where they are...it's only been a month, but it sure feels like the sweet spot.

Strength is way up, sleeping like a baby, f'ing like an animal, eating heartily, dropping bodyfat, and energy to burn. The question is: Can it stay this good indefinitely? When we find a "sweet spot", can we manipulate our levels
consistently to stay in that zone? Will the numbers above always "feel" like they do now? Or will they have to go progressively higher to keep the same feeling?

grilla

[kelkel]

grilla (original grilla not those two copy-cats) take a look at GD's thread on what to expect with TRT. It really explains a lot of what you just asked.

600: Thanks for that response. Glad to know it went well. I'm a few years older than you and I went through 2 crap docs but now have a great one so I'm very happy with my protocol and all he allows me to do.

[grilla]

In the interest of documenting my TRT journey, I note that I found myself in an argument with my Dr yesterday on a critical point.

I started HCG last week obtained online but wanted to have a legitimate script and felt certain he would rx the same.

After discussing how well I am doing on the 100mg/wk test cyp protocol, I transitioned into the benefits of HCG. He agreed that
there could be benefits (I brought Crisler's paper on the topic)...IF my system shutdown, which he argued would never happen
so long as my levels didn't go supraphysiologic. I thought I might have misunderstood but discovered that he did, in fact, believe
that so long as my test level was within the range given on the lab, there was no possibility that my own testes would cease
production. I argued the point further and realized he had little if any idea what he was talking about. In the interest of not
losing my legitimate avenue for test cyp, I let the matter drop.

Obviously, I have no intention of continuing with him long-term. Unfortunately, he was one of only three Drs in Arkansas that I spoke with who was
willing to rx testosterone if labs showed initial test levels in range. (Of the two others, one has a $3k initial consult fee and charges $400/mth
thereafter...the other is a woman...her protocol is also high dollar and pellet based, and I have no interest in having a lady steering the TRT ship.)

It looks like I'll be going out of state...either Crisler or Gaines. Crisler seems to be the more reasonably priced of the two so as of now my plan is to fly
to Michigan in August and start there.

As a side note, I still feel f'ing awesome!

grilla

[steroid.com 1]

In the interest of documenting my TRT journey, I note that I found myself in an argument with my Dr yesterday on a critical point.

I started HCG last week obtained online but wanted to have a legitimate script and felt certain he would rx the same.

After discussing how well I am doing on the 100mg/wk test cyp protocol, I transitioned into the benefits of HCG. He agreed that
there could be benefits (I brought Crisler's paper on the topic)...IF my system shutdown, which he argued would never happen
so long as my levels didn't go supraphysiologic. I thought I might have misunderstood but discovered that he did, in fact, believe
that so long as my test level was within the range given on the lab, there was no possibility that my own testes would cease
production. I argued the point further and realized he had little if any idea what he was talking about. In the interest of not
losing my legitimate avenue for test cyp, I let the matter drop.

Obviously, I have no intention of continuing with him long-term. Unfortunately, he was one of only three Drs in Arkansas that I spoke with who was
willing to rx testosterone if labs showed initial test levels in range. (Of the two others, one has a $3k initial consult fee and charges $400/mth
thereafter...the other is a woman...her protocol is also high dollar and pellet based, and I have no interest in having a lady steering the TRT ship.)

It looks like I'll be going out of state...either Crisler or Gaines. Crisler seems to be the more reasonably priced of the two so as of now my plan is to fly
to Michigan in August and start there.

As a side note, I still feel f'ing awesome!

grilla

There is some logic to your Doc's thought process here.

We use terms like "shutdown" to easily here I think as it relates to TRT.

Without question, exogenous Testosterone will impact HPTA...but to what extent?

Here where we use TRT in the physiological levels it can be argued that HPTA is not impacted...we know that's not correct.

However, if we think more along the lines of "suppression" I think we are probably more accurate then thinking "shut down" along the line of AAS use.

So, while I believe that HPTA may still function to some extent the use of TRT in the physiological levels men who use Testosterone will at some point need to use hCG to keep HPTA functioing at the optimal levels...along with all the other great benefits of its use.

[grilla]

Newest BW

Protocol: 50mg test cyp subq 2x/wk, 250iu HCG 2x/wk.

Concerns: Estrogen is still well in hand...26 on first test, 21 on this test on a 3-70 scale...no AI...
but gyno DEFINITELY coming on. I will get prolactin run tomorrow as I don't know what else could
cause the gyno in the low E2 environ.

July 18, 2012 BW

TSH 1.010 0.450-4.500
Thyroxine (T4) 9.1 4.5-12.0
T3 Uptake 34 24-39
Free Thyroxine Index 3.1 1.2-4.9

Testosterone , serum 808 348-1197
Free Test (Direct) 37.81 high 5.0-21.0
IGF -1 348 high 101-267
Estradiol, sensitive 21 3-70

PSA, serum 0.9 0.0-4.0

WBC 7.0 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.46 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 15.7 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 48.4 37.5-51.0
MCV 89 79-97
MCH 28.8 26.6-33.0
MCHC 32.4 31.5-35.7
RDW 14.2 12.3-15.4
Platelets 242 140-415
Neutrophils 65 40-74
Lymphs 29 14-46
Monocytes 5 4-13
Eos 1 0-7
Basos 0 0-3
Neutrophils(abs) 4.5 1.7-7.8
Lymphs(abs) 2.0 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(abs) 0.4 0.1-1.0
Eos(abs) 0.1 0.0-0.4
Baso(abs) 0.0 0.0-0.2

Glucose, Serum 92 65-99
BUN 23 6-24
Creatinine,serum 1.03 0.76-1.27
eGFR 90 >59
BUN/creatinine ratio 22 high 9-20
Sodium, serum 141 134-144
Potassium, serum 4.2 3.5-5.2
Chloride, serum 102 97-108
Carbon Dioxide,total 24 20-32
Calcium, serum 9.2 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, serum 7.5 6.0-8.5
Albumin, serum 4.7 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.8 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.7 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 1.0 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase 66 25-150
ALT (SGOT) 24 0-40
ALT(SGPT) 34 0-55

grilla

[zaggahamma]

i was wondering the same as kel

[kelkel]

Grilla, define what you feel as gyno. Is there a lump or just sensitivity in the nips?

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/96/1/15.full

[zaggahamma]

sorry to hear

how long did u suspect gyno

and was prolactin forgotten ..the other labs seem so extensive...

agree with your assessment/theory of the cause though

[grilla]

kel: Lumps under both nipples...both lumps tender to touch...and the area around the lump feels like it's holding more fluid than the surrounding pec area (this is really subjective and may be the lumps rather than any actual fluid).

I had planned to start liquidex or possibly nolva when bw came back because I felt certain E would be high...but with E at 21, I can't imagine that either would assist.

For what it's worth, I still feel great...libido is high...strength is high...muscle piling on...all of which makes me question high prolactin...just got in before close and had blood drawn, though, so I should know by the end of the week.

grilla

[grilla]

jpk: I have suspected for almost a month...since about a week after I added HCG to my protocol. I waited a month for bw to alliow levels to settle.

I skipped prolactin because it wasn't included in the labcorp panel I use and because I didn't realize that gyno could be a problem as long as E was in check.

Pin and learn.

grilla

[zaggahamma]

yes pin and learn is one way i guess this way u get the point

[grilla]

Prolactin is back. 11 on a 4-15 range.
Estrogen is 21 on a 3-70 range.
Bodyfat is sub 15%.

What would the best approach to quashing my oncoming gyno be? I suspect any AI would crash E.

grilla

[zaggahamma]

bump

[Vettester]

The only thing that will probably knock it is (IMO) running a Letrozole protocol. YES, it's going to crash your E2, and it will crash it hard, but that's inevitable if you're inhibiting estrogen with a compound as potent as Letrozole. Your body will naturally try to restore its estrogen levels thereafter, which you will also need to keep some Nolvadex on hand to mitigate the sides commonly attributed from what is known as estrogen rebound. IMO, it beats having to go get surgery, but I would suggest consulting a doctor with whatever route you go.

[kelkel]

At least jump on Nolva until you figure out exactly what course of action you're going to take. Nolva will help. Re-read post 30 link.

[grilla]

I started 3mg/day of aromasin (liquid stane) today. I am also going to reduce HCG to 200iu 2x/week. I will continue with 50mg test cyp 2x/week injected subq.

Research and a post from Dr Crisler suggest to me that low to mid 20s may be slightly too high for me.

I am going to attempt to stabilize in the mid teens and determine whether there is a gyno difference.

Concerns: I feel GREAT! I have since starting TRT. I am concerned that lowering E may intrude on how good I feel. Ideally, I will find a happy medium where mood/affect/etc. may not be AS good as they are now but the lumps under my nips will stop growing/itching/etc.