Banned
Couple things, being on HRT you body is not producing enough testosterone. Does that mean you have to stay on it for the rest of your life?
If you do, how do you avoid permeant shutdown, or are you already permanently shut down? Also do you still run HCG, whats the dose and for how long?
Knowledgeable Member
yes hrt is permanent. you cant avoid permanent shutdown on hrt. tech you already are shutdown or decreasing as you age. also yes hcg to keep testes functioning. the common hcg dose with hrt is 250ius eod.
Welcome to the Good Life
In most cases HRT is forever. I've read a few cases of dr's trying to jumpstart the hpta in to production again using hcg and/or clomid, but quite often dr. prescribed hrt is for good.Originally Posted by Razor
HRT is in response to shutdown/bad supression.
Hcg is often used while on TRT, or should be, to keep the boys functioning. Especially if you want children down the road.
*Not on HRT myself but have done a lot of research for future treatment.
HRT
Are you referring to HPTA suppression do to exogenous Testosterone?
If so, one needs to add in hCG to their protocol to keep HPTA in tact and keep the testes functioning if the man is Secondary Hypogonadal.
Read the sticky on hCG.
Banned
So if your shutdown do to natural causes do you have testicular shrinkage?
Last edited by Razor; 08-23-2012 at 01:08 PM.
HRT
A man's testes needs Luteinizing Hormone (LH) to function properly.
In presence of suppressed or zero serum levels of LH will cause testicular shutdown...atrophy will follow along with lower levels of sex hormones and other things...
I am curios as to what "natural" means.
If a man is shut down due to physiological causes it will usually point to something pathological unless it's just age related of course.
Banned
Natural shutdown meaning andropause
So a man will have shrinkage do to andropause?
Banned
Razor, I'm on the phone so I can't C&P, but take a look at the thread in this forum, titled something like, "Low T 115 serum levels". It's a recent thread. On that thread there's some specific discussion on the HPTA, LH, and how it all works.
I'll post more later ...
HRT
Ok, andropause = age related.
It's unlikely Testicular Atrophy will occur based on age related decline as HPTA is till functioning albeit not optimal by any means but there will still be enough LH production to keep the testes functioning but not optimally.
Even with Exogenous Testosterone the Pituitary still produces some LH but very tiny small amounts.
Banned
Ok awesome thank you for answering that for me
I'm learning a lot in here. Thank you guys
Banned
GD pretty much summed it up. My test serum was in the low 200's, but my testicles didn't really have any problems, which confirms that the little amount of LH (I think it was a 1.9 LH Score) was suffice. However, shortly after getting on HRT, my HPTA went into a deeper suppression, which is when I was first introduced to my nutometer. The nutometer doesn't lie to me ... No LH means pain and no fun
Thank you HCG!!
Banned
How do you run HCG infinitely and avoid overstimulation of the LH which will result in desensitization of the LH and testies?GD pretty much summed it up. My test serum was in the low 200's, but my testicles didn't really have any problems, which confirms that the little amount of LH (I think it was a 1.9 LH Score) was suffice. However, shortly after getting on HRT, my HPTA went into a deeper suppression, which is when I was first introduced to my nutometer. The nutometer doesn't lie to me ... No LH means pain and no fun
Thank you HCG!!
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
By only running small doses. It won't cause problems at lower doses at all as your not "slamming" your testies with it. Like the guys above said, check out the sticky on HCG and also go to www.allthingsmale.com and read Crislers paper on HCG. Good stuff to read.
Welcome to our side Razor! You can learn alot here too!
kel
Banned
The whole desensitization thing is another debate in itself. Anyways, no worries, I've been on it for almost 3 years straight, still going strong! I worked with a very reputable HRT doctor in the past that had patients on HCG monotherapy since the 90's, and they're still going strong. If you think about it, all HCG does is mimic LH, the same LH that would instead be generated by the HPTA. Have you ever heard of any teenagers or young adults getting desensitized when their testosterone levels are through the ceiling?
Banned
No I have not
Is there any difference btw a andropause shutdown of the HTPA and a drug induced shutdown from steroids (cycles)? Also if a person can run a successful cycle and a agressive PCT after using gear and get his body working again producing natural test, how come a HRT patient cannot undergo the same agressive treatment style (PCT) as a cycling person and restore there own HTPA to proper function so they dont have to stay on HRT forever.
Banned
Dude Im so glad Vett told me about this place and gave me the invite. Im here to learn from the masters.
Banned
Well, essentially a shutdown is a shutdown, whether induced by AAS usage or just andropause, which is the equivalent to females and menopause.No I have not
Is there any difference btw a andropause shutdown of the HTPA and a drug induced shutdown from steroids (cycles)? Also if a person can run a successful cycle and a agressive PCT after using gear and get his body working again producing natural test, how come a HRT patient cannot undergo the same agressive treatment style (PCT) as a cycling person and restore there own HTPA to proper function so they dont have to stay on HRT forever.
Here's the deal, when you're younger with a healthy HPTA, you can go for "x" period of time with suppressing the HPTA, and usually have a fairly high percentile with restarting it backup by running a PCT. As you know, the longer you wait, the greater chance your HPTA will stay in the shutdown mode.
It's a little different though with aging. Axis suppression is just nature's way of preparing the body for older age. The body is genetically coded to go through various stages in life. For thousands of years, we have been structured to procreate when we are at a younger; possibly more healthier stage of our life. This is true in both males and females. Unfortunately, when the biological clock tells the HPTA that it's time to wind it down, it's probably going to be ineffective to try and run any PCT.
However, we are living in the greatest time of mankind as we know, as science has found a way to manipulate this process by utilization of exogenous compounds and bio identical hormones. So, we're kind of the guinea pigs in this generation to see just how far (or not so far) this will take us. Death is inevitable, but, theoretically we should be able to add some substantial years to the average lifespan, and we should be able to also enhance the quality of life we experience in the later years.
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Maybe if we can keep you out of the lounge there might be hope ... Just keep your head low and dedicate yourself to learning. Knowledge takes time, but it doesn't take forever ...
Banned
Awesome post, thank you.
Take a person like me, my HTPA is running great minus a major setback from a E2 crash. As you said as your get older it is harder for your body to to restart and the longer the cycle the greater shutdown of the HTPA. Would you recommend I stay away from any further gear usage and just stick to growth for the rest of my life to avoid possibly permanently messing myself up. I know we say the best time to cycle is in your late 20's early 30's even in your 40's is fine. But if its not broken dont try to fix it right?
Roger that, and will comply
Banned
Razor, as mentioned by Kelkel and others, we have some amazing stickies here. I would like you to take a few hours to review them thoroughly for us. Like any training, it all starts somewhere. Top to bottom, are you up for it?
Banned
Yes I will start right now. Sorry for all the questions..could you just answer that one last question in my last post..thank you so much
Banned
What I would suggest is taking at least the rest of the year off from all it, except some of the Nolva and a few things that are needed to get you stabilized. I would run labs at least every 6 weeks as well til the end of the year, and consult a knowledgeable physician on a regular basis. Relieve yourself of counterproductive situations that do not benefit you or anyone else.
Banned
And yes, agreed, if it's not broken then don't fix it!
Study like you're trying to get into Harvard, man!
Banned
Ok will do!! Thank you for always steering me in the right direction. Those situations benefit no one and nothing.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Welcome to our world Razor! Vette gave some great replies and we've all learned alot from him here! Regarding cycles and aging, IMHO you just have to tone it down and be a bit more prudent if you continue. Less compounds, simpler, safer, more frequent BW to monitor yourself, etc. If you hang here, we'll have you interpreting BW in no time!
Banned
Thx man, well since I'll be doing this the rest of my in some fashion with growth or test, so I'm glad I found a place to call home and you guys welcomed me in with great fashion! I already started reading and like what I am reading and learning. This place is much more refined than the q&a.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
It's definitely more refined. No arguing, flaming, etc. Really good guys here. You'll see. Some of us cross over but the majority stay put.
Banned
Vett answered this earlier, but I would like your take on it as well so here it is
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
I kinda did reference it a couple posts up: "IMHO you just have to tone it down and be a bit more prudent if you continue. Less compounds, simpler, safer, more frequent BW to monitor yourself, etc." As we age you definitly have to re-examine your goals, train less but smarter. By now you know your bodies needs and what works for it. Both with diet and training. Advantageous, absolutely. With age comes wisdom right. I only train three times per week anymore. Rest is everything.
It's always safer to just stay away but that's a personal decision. Will there be detrimental effects if you continue? It's a crap shoot. I know what it's like to steer clear of AAS. Personally I stopped competing in 89 and all aas usage at that time as I could have lost my career. But another reason was the amounts I was doing back then were pretty much high end TRT dosages now and the guys who I was competing against literally were doing in one week what I did in an entire cycle. I was not willing to go that route. It scared the crap out of me. I never touched it again until being diagnosed with a pituitary tumor a couple years ago which shut me down to a 59 T level and dropping. Hence, my adventures in TRT.
Now, on occasion I will bump up my T but it's still within the bounds of high end TRT and maybe add a low dose Deca. Difference is they are all prescribed and monitored with a great doc!
Last edited by kelkel; 08-24-2012 at 05:34 PM.
Banned
Awesome, thank you for that insight.
New Member
Great posts. I am noob learning a lot here. So much to read. I hope to find a good doctor soon to help manage all this. I will however be well informed when I do find a doctor. Thanks to all
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