Believe it or not I want small gains first

[Dick Grayson]

This is a probably a weird question, but how would i go about getting small gains so it don't look so obvious that i'm on aas. I wanna bulk up very gradually and then shred myself.

I was thinking about doing a decca only cylce from the novice cycle list, but there are two, one that pyramids from 200 mg to 300 then to 200. And the other to 400 then back to 200. I was thinking the first (300) would be a good small start and see how that works out and then move up to the "400" pyramind on my second, then see where I go from there. I wanna gain about 8-12 lbs first and get my body fat under 10%, eventually.

I'm 5'9", 190 pounds, with I would say about 18-20 % body (I know).

I once did part of a cycle, if you could call it that, my junior year in high school for football. I asked a friend for some and and he hooked me up, but the fucked up thing is that I didn't know what I was taking or how often. I just injected in my leg and ass about 2 cc once a week and lifted and ate like mofo. I gained alot of strength and major muscle in my chest and everyone knew what I was on because I was always very skinny so after about a month I got off it because I was embarressed.

So now I gonna do it right and actually do some research, this place has a ton of info, but all I come up with so far is how to get big fast, I want to do it slowly and gradually, so it's not so obvious. Any suggestions would be of help, Thanks.

[ripped4fsu]

IMO I'd go with Winny 50mg ED for 4 wks instead of deca if I were only doing one AAS.
Winny gives quality gains in strength and hardness, and no deca dick...

[chinups]

I would go with 50 mg of winny for 6 wks. at least 5 though

[motoxxxguy]

Lift and eat. That's a really good newbie cycle, especially if you don't want serious gains. When I first started to get my diet in line with my training, people accused me of juicing regularly, as I was always skinny as a kid. You can bulk up alot with just a change in your diet, then when,if you do juice, people will be used to seeing you grow and you can handle the "guilt" of being bigger than them!

-moto

[JohnnyB]

Where did the winny come from, did I miss something?

Bro how old are you?

JohnnyB

[Warrior]

Believe it or not - don't use anabolic steroids. You can get good permanent gains with your stats by first mastering your diet and training game plan.

Why mess with your endocrine system by hardly replacing what you would produce naturally anyway? 200mg of Deca per week would shut you down and probably just replace what your natural androgen levels would be anyway.

Options 4 U:

Minimal:
Weeks 1-6: Winstrol 50mg/day

Moderate:
Weeks 1-10: Deca 400mg/wk

Max Results:
Weeks 1-10: Deca 300mg/wk
Weeks 1-5: Winstrol 50mg/day

Clomid to come off... how to use the Clomid would depend on what gear or stack you choose.

If you're just getting back into the swing of things there are a lot of people on this forum to help you with more than how to use anabolic-androgenic steroids [in other forum topics]. Sounds to me like you don't need the juice... or don't want the attention from being "on"...

[Warrior]

Originally posted by JohnnyB
Bro how old are you?

JohnnyB

His profile says he is 24.

[Dick Grayson]

Thanks for the responses, yeah I'm 24. The thing with me is that when I lift hard core, I only get stronger, not bigger getting stronger is definitely good but wanna eventually look the part as well. Using legal supplements, I would use a very simple stack of what I call the "tines", which consisted of <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=CREATINE" target="_blank">creatine</a> , <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=GLUTAMINE" target="_blank">glutamine</a> and <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank">protein</a>, and like I said all I got was stronger, that's it. I've tried IMO everything, including all that you can buy at the local GNC, but I guess it not in my genes, but I'm gonna change that. I had thought about the winny, but just wasn't sure, i was reading other strings some people were saying that if you're gonna go that small with the winny, then why even bother? And I do want the attention and the looks I'll get...but

The main reason for wanting to go slow is because I now can handle what other people will tell me, I just don't want my wife and daughter to have to answer for my choices and always either make an excuse or act like they don't know anything, ya know?


Once again thanks for the help.

[Warrior]

If your sure your diets on - what about your training? Are you sure you are training correctly for your goals?

As far as diet - are you trying little amounts of everything here and there? Be sure to stick to the basics and never come off them as long as you are active. The basics being: Multi Vitamin, Vitamin C, proper protein requirements... these are the foundation for growth.

I made a supplement pyramid awhile back, check it out too.

[Billy_Bathgate]

Dont do any of those cycles. Do a simple 400mg of test for 10wks. Cheap, easy, and the most effective. Deca will just shut you down hard and you will have no sex drive for a long time. Screw that...

[freakmaster]

Whats your diet like. You say you get stronger but not bigger? That says to me your diet is off. Either you are not getting enough protein(you should consume about 1.0-2.0 grams per pound of body weight) or not enough carbs (2.5 to 3.5 of complex carbs per day) and try to curb fat intake to under 40 gms per day. Your calories should be between 3020 to 4540 cal. a day, preferably somewhere in the middle of those figures. To figure out how many calories, protein to eat, or carbs to eat, and fat to eat. First starting at the beginning of the week, from day 1 document everything you eat, protein, carbs, fat and add the calories at the end of the day. To figure that out is simple, protein is 4 calories per gram, carbs 4 calories per gram, and fat 9 calories per gram. To get your daily average of the above, just divide each of the totals by seven and that will give you your average of carbs, protein, fat, and calories consumed per day, and adjust accordingly to fit your needs. If you diet is not your main problem, than you need to find out what body type you are, either ectomorph, endomorph, or mesomorph. Usually most people are not just one body type, but a mixture of two of them. Ectomorphs are usually on the skinny side, and it takes alot of work to build alot of mass, Mesomorphs are the ideal bodybuilding body type, in that they gain very easily, and endomorphs are usually on the heavy side, and gain mass fairly easily. You need to do some research and try to figure what body type you actually are. Ectomorphs have alot of slow twitch muscle fibers, mesomorphs have a mixture of slow twitch and fast twitch,and tend to have more fast twitch than slow and more 2b fast twitch muscle fibers, and endomorphs have alot of fast twitch muscle fibers. Slow twitch muscle fibers are the endurance part of the muscle, and fast twitch are the power fibers of the muscle. Slow twitch muscle fibers are slow to fatigue, hence the term slow twitch, and fast twitch tend to fatigue at a fast rate but they are more powerful, and they grow faster than slow twitch. There are two different types of fast twitch muscle fibers, the two types are called 2a and 2b. The 2a fibers can grow by 25%. This means if you started training with a 10 inch arm, you can expect to increase the circumference by 25% or 2 inches. 2b fibers can grow by 100% in size. Therefore, a 10 inch arm has the potential to grow to 20inches, but remember, most people for the most part have just one type of muscle fiber in their bodies. 2b fibers are stubborn and are worked best in the 6 to 12 rep range. Furthermore, they are very resistant to participation until you are at your 'breaking point' and can barely complete the final rep of a set. When you do lots and lots of sets, you are unable to handle the heavy poundages required for muscle growth, so you rarely work the 2b fibers. Another problem with doing mega set workouts is you over train without working the 2b fibers. In effect, you exhaust yourself but fail to stimulate growth.
If mega volume was the basis for muscle growth then weight training and muscle growth would be simple(ie)'just do 40 sets for each body part and you'll look awesome. To train the 2b fibers, first understand that the 2b fibers always come into play when you lift weights. However, the characteristic of 2b fibers is this; there stubborn! They only come into play at the very end of a set, at the last possible moment when the set is heaviest and most difficult to accomplish. Getting at them takes a tremendous effort and maximum exertion, in good form. In addition of heavy weights, the speed at which you move those heavy weights influences 2b recruitment-whether you will work them properly. Faster reps, or trying to move a weight quickly with explosive power is a factor in causing the 2b to come into play.
You may be asking yourself 'how about the huge discrepancy in training. Some professional bodybuilders do 1 to 2 sets while others do 20 to 30 sets per bodypart. What gives?
The huge discrepancy is due to genetics. Your muscles and most everyone else's on this planet are comprised of a blend of slow twitch fibers and fast twitch fibers, both 2a and 2b. This explains why 'Joe Average' could run a marathon if he wanted to put in the time required to accomplish such a task. It also explains why he can weigh a lean 215lbs. He can build muscle with the right training and diet. However, since he has a mixture of muscle fibers, it would be almost impossible for him to win a marathon( notice I said almost, for it has been done before) race or win a bodybuilding championship.
Take marathon runners for example, the US olympic team has the best coaches and best running shoes and the best of everything, compared to the Ethiopian team, the Moroccan team, the Sudanese team, but they lose every time. Why? Because those teams have genetics on their side. Their muscles are comprised of far greater slow twitch fibers than fast twitch fibers and slow twitch are made for cardio excercise and endurance.
Now to the Bodybuilders. If one's genetic make-up dictates he has far greater fast twitch fibers than slow twitch fibers and far greater 2b fibers than 2a fibers, then anything will work! Any type of resistance training will promote spectacular results. Since you muscles are probably a mix of slow twitch and 2a and 2b fibers, your goal should be to train as intelligently as possible and work the 2b's. Too many sets will crush your ability to recover- to bounce back from each workout- and you'll fail to make big gains.

[Kurt]

Does everyone get Deca Dick on Deca ?
[Just using a Deca only cycle]
And when would you start to see Deca Dick setting in?

Does Deca shut you down automatically or is it dependant on dosage?
Based on the general feedback on deca dick it appears that many AS users have given the DECA only cycle a go.
Otherwise if you are stacking how is it determined that Deca is causing the side effect and not the other AS in the stack?

Is there something else[other than testerone or androgenic based AS] that you can take as a supplement with the Deca cycle to prevent DECA DICK?

I understand that the deca dick is caused by a drop in natural test.
Is a forerunner to deca dick shrunken nuts?



Kurt39

[Dick Grayson]

I will admit my diet is not what it should be, I never really paid attention all that much to it. I was always told that if you wanna grow, just eat. I even tried a diet where you drink a gallon of milk a day (some football coach referred that to me) , and I read in the magazines that ectomorphs, which is what I am freakmaster, must consume 40% carb and 50% protein diet, with only about 10% of good fat. I tried that for about 8 months and I saw very little gains, I think I gained about 2 lbs, so then I got discouraged and then just ate whatever. I also read that carbs are the enemy, but that I need them to give me energy, because I'm was skinny. Plus being 19 yrs old (at the time) and just out of high school and living with my folks AND with minimum wage part-time job the food alone was getting expensive. I will also admit I am a little impatient at times, so maybe those 8 months wasn't enough time on the diet? Anyways thanks for the advice bros. I think I'll go with the winny 50 mgs ED for 8 weeks and see what I can get from that.

P.S. I think I am prone to gyno, I get jokes from my cousin about my "boobies", would it be wise to take Nolvadex with my Winny cycle or wait till afterwords? And is it gyno or fat, there are no hard deposits under or around my nipples, like I've read that other people experience. Is there like levels of gyno that people get? I think it might be hereditary cause my dad never juiced and he kind of has the same thing although not as severe, I think mine are like that because of my first cycle. I didn't use any anti-e's (I know, very stupid of me).Thanks again for the help.

[HazyA]

Originally posted by Kurt
Does everyone get Deca Dick on Deca ?
[Just using a Deca only cycle]
And when would you start to see Deca Dick setting in?

Does Deca shut you down automatically or is it dependant on dosage?
Based on the general feedback on deca dick it appears that many AS users have given the DECA only cycle a go.
Otherwise if you are stacking how is it determined that Deca is causing the side effect and not the other AS in the stack?

Is there something else[other than testerone or androgenic based AS] that you can take as a supplement with the Deca cycle to prevent DECA DICK?

I understand that the deca dick is caused by a drop in natural test.
Is a forerunner to deca dick shrunken nuts?



Kurt39

I have also been wondering if anything can be added to a fina/deca cycle to do without deca dick, how about proviron, or clomid throughout your cycel?

[CutUp]

Dick Grayson,
Moto, Warrior, and Freakmaster said it already...but it can't be stressed enough. Your diet is KEY.
I'm 6ft 3in and have always been skinny, like 165 pounds! When I first started lifting seriously I ate chicken and tuna until I couldn't stand it anymore. I got up to 175 naturally before I even considered any juice.

I know 175 is still small, but that was a big gain for my body type. If you REALLY eat right, eat to gain mass, everyday, and workout hard, you will grow and grow.

As far as slow steady gains from juice, I've heard good things about EQ, never tried it, but many like it. Low water retention, quality muscle gains. Many bros believe EQ and winny together are a good begginer cycle, hit the search button, its been talked about a lot
later

[Billy_Bathgate]

Yes do test. There is no reason not to.

[freakmaster]

You need carbs to give you energy and to assimilate the protein that you take in. Without enough carbs, you would burn the protein for energy. So for example if you take in 4000 calories, with 50%protein, 40%carbs, and 10%fat, that would equate to 500grams of protein, 400grams of carbs and about 40 grams of protein, which is the number of fat grams in which i specified in my original post. You need more carbs than protein so you can use enough for protein synthesis, and for energy. Carbs are used not only for energy, but for protein synthesis also, not enough carbs, a percentage of protein that you take in is used for energy, so that the 500 grams of protein that you injest, say 300 will be used for muscle protein synthesis, and the rest for energy. Your body uses the food that you take in for energy, wether it is protein, or carbs, or fat, and with 10%fat, that is not enough fat to be used for energy. With your diet, the protein that you take in, a large part of the protein is being used for energy, and not for protein synthesis, and defeats the purpose of taking 50% protein. So as you can see, the diet you have just outlined is similar to the one in my original post, but with the carb ratio to protien ratio are reversed. In my original post my protein was 40%, carbs 50%, and fat was 10%. Same figures as yours but reversed. Now as far as training goes, you have to train to your particular bodytype, you claim you are a ectomorph, so you have to train your bodytype accordingly. Diet and training go hand in hand. If you have the right diet, with the right training, you will grow like a weed. I went from 148lbs to 232 naturally in 4years naturally, with no AS. I am a classic mesomorph, even that is not enough to classify my gains to being one bodytype, I ate and trained according to my bodytype. I am now 275 after two cycles with my body fat around 15%. I am a big mofo, due to training and dieting properly. Remember knowledge is power, the more knowledge you have, the better bodybuilder you will be, or lifter or whatever it is you are trying to achieve with your body.
A good book that might help you is Championship Bodybuilding by Chris Aceto for your diet, Encyclopidia of Bodybuilding by Arnold Schwarzenegger, Blood and guts by Dorian Yates, just to name a few.
I hope this helps you, and Good Luck.

[Dick Grayson]

It does help and thanks to everyone for the good info and quick replies.

PEACE!!!!!!!!

[Dick Grayson]

Oh almost forgot, any advice about my gyno?

[Dick Grayson]

ANYONE?????

[Billy_Bathgate]

IF you already got it...get it cut out or ignore it.

To preven use anti-estrogens.

[DeepZenPill]

I would recommend EQ at 400mg/week plus 50mg winny ED. You'll make very nice lean gains, and it really won't be too obvious. Winny does not aromatize, and EQ aromatizes minimally, but DEFINITELY have nolva on hand. Having "boobies" like you said while still being pretty skinny is a sign of high aromatase activity, so you might have a predisposition for gyno. If you didn't care about the cash, you would be able to take liquidex at .5mg EOD which would probably be plenty to suppress aromatization of EQ. But all in all it's really not necessary. Just have nolva in case you see gyno forming.

[Dick Grayson]

Excellent! Thanks for the info DeepZ!!