6 cycles under my belt, out for a year, need advice on BF%/AAS

[Neevor]

First thing’s first, here’s the stat’s dudes:

31 yo, 6’3”, 290lbs 25% bodyfat, 6 cycles under my belt w Enth, Sust, Prop, Dbol, Win, Deca, Tren, Masterone as well as other ancillaries including but not limited to T3, Clen, Insulin, Arimidex, HCG, Nolva and Clomid. Been lifting since highschool.

The question, upfront:

At what bodyfat can/should I start a cutting cycle? (Please take a minute to read the below circumstances)

A little history:

My last cycle was two years ago 50mgED Prop, 50mgED TrenA, 50mgED Mast w clen & T3. I went from 14%bf at 237lbs to 7% at 225lbs (see my Avatar) in 7 weeks adding 5lbs of muscle and dropping 17lbs of fat. I am familiar with both cycling my caloric intake daily to drop fat while maintaining muscle as well as a rotating twice a day variable training schedule. A couple months after this cycle I used insulin for the first time and was able to add some more muscle mass. I was on my way to really feeling ready for a competition in the summer of 2011.

Fast forward to summer of 2011. I lost my job (for the second time in two years), my gf turned into a psychopath, I became incredibly depressed and started eating whatever made me happy (fatty salty food) and drinking a lot. I did continue to go to the gym but only like twice a week at best. In May of this year I finally dumped my ex, stopped drinking, got on some anti depressants (only needed them for two months), got some therapy, changed careers and basically got my life right again. Unfortunately in 8 months I went from 255 and 14%bf to 315lbs and 31%bf. I started slowly going back to the gym in June and have worked my way back to my old gym regimen and clean diet and have lost 25lbs in the last 75 days.

My conundrum:

I’ve scoured the website at this point for information on my strange situation but the best I could come up with so far is jimmyinkedups posting “High bf and cycling” and he basically cautions against cycling over 11% which, in my experience is pretty extreme (no offence inked, I really appreciated the article).

I think my situation is pretty rare. I wasn’t injured physically so nothing stopped me from going to the gym, I just was insanely depressed and while I got super fat, I didn’t drop muscle mass or lose much ground in the cardio area. My blood pressure was a little high back in May but is great now (I don’t remember the exact stats but they are right around 120/75) and I have a resting heart rate of 59. My lifts are only 20% off of what they were a year ago and I attribute that mainly to the fact that I’m averaging 1800 cals a day right now.

I have plenty of prop/tren/mast and all the other goodies required to basically run the exact same cycle I ran two years ago and the vials call to me from my stash daily at this point. Tren is the bomb and I can tolerate the insomnia. The prop is mainly so my junk works and I throw masterone in cause I find it really combats estrogenic/progesteronic sides. I am also a strong believer in running the trifecta of test/19nor/DHT. Right now I also find myself rationalizing things like “even if being fat causes some estrogen problems (which I’ve managed before w Deca but never with this prop/tren/mast stack) I have plenty of Nolva and Arimadex.”

SO! Back to the question.. At what body fat % (given that I am not your average out of shape noob fat guy, but am more along the lines of an NFL lineman, and assuming my blood panel comes back in good shape) would you think I can start this cycle and get my freakin body back? Obviously I am not going to start this tomorrow so don't feel the need to talk me out of anything, I'm well aware that 25%bf is too high. But where does the line start to blur?

[austinite]

Hey Neevor,

First of all, congrats on quitting drinking, the new career and not getting addicted to anti-depressants. Good work.

There isn't really a magic number for BF%. However, 15% is where you can see decent results. Higher BF and you would be quite disappointed with your mirror. 11% is pretty damn lean. It's just not easy for alot of people to get there naturally.

So, my number for you is 15.

Best of luck to you. With your history, I think you'll get there in no time.

[Neevor]

Austinite,

Thanks for the props. I feel very proud of myself to be where I am given where I was half a year ago.

I feel I should clarify a little now. I am not as concerned with things like "being able to see my abs" as I am with getting this bf% down asap. I figure I dropped 7% the first time on this cycle and Ive got about 15 more lbs of muscle than where I was when I started last time.. I should be able to drop 10% in 8 weeks this time around. It's very tempting to start at 23% knowing I'll be down to 13% in 8 weeks. My body seems to add muscle most effectively between 12% and 17% so this would put me in good shape for bulking up over the winter/ early spring. What I am most concerned about is not where I will need to start to get down to 7% again but at what BF% do the estrogenic sides become less risky than the benefits of dropping fat and adding muscle at light speed the way only AAS can do?

I know my first bulk cycle with Deca finished w me at 17 or 18% and I did have a little of the beginnings of gyno but I wasnt nearly as diet concious or knowledgable then, nor did I have magical masterone in the stack to mitigate the estrogen issue. This bit of rationalizing leads me to believe that I would probably be safe estrogen sideswise starting at 18%bf and probably higher but "how much higher?" is the question.

[Neevor]

I suppose it can only be motivational for me to make my fatness a matter of public record and should also make for a good comparison when i post after pics in a few months.

[songdog]

I agree with the 15% thats wat we use here.Good luck!

[stpete]

Yeah, 15% is fine.

[austinite]

Austinite,

Thanks for the props. I feel very proud of myself to be where I am given where I was half a year ago.

I feel I should clarify a little now. I am not as concerned with things like "being able to see my abs" as I am with getting this bf% down asap. I figure I dropped 7% the first time on this cycle and Ive got about 15 more lbs of muscle than where I was when I started last time.. I should be able to drop 10% in 8 weeks this time around. It's very tempting to start at 23% knowing I'll be down to 13% in 8 weeks. My body seems to add muscle most effectively between 12% and 17% so this would put me in good shape for bulking up over the winter/ early spring. What I am most concerned about is not where I will need to start to get down to 7% again but at what BF% do the estrogenic sides become less risky than the benefits of dropping fat and adding muscle at light speed the way only AAS can do?

I know my first bulk cycle with Deca finished w me at 17 or 18% and I did have a little of the beginnings of gyno but I wasnt nearly as diet concious or knowledgable then, nor did I have magical masterone in the stack to mitigate the estrogen issue. This bit of rationalizing leads me to believe that I would probably be safe estrogen sideswise starting at 18%bf and probably higher but "how much higher?" is the question.

I understand that you want to hear something specific. But let's look at another option that for a minute....

I wasn't referring to seeing abs I honestly don't think that you will see much if anything when you're close to 20%.

Let's go back to your stats for a minute. You currently carry 73 lbs of fat with 218 lean lbs.(that's a good amount of lean mass) Ideally, we want to get that fat down to 38 lbs total. that's a difference of 35 lbs, the amount of fat you want to lose.

How long is an average cycle? 8 to 10 weeks? Right? That's a little over 2 months. Well, I've got great news for you. You can lose that 35 lbs in less than 2 months, naturally. I've done it myself. It's going to be a rough ride for a couple months, but its just a couple of months! Simply going into ketosis mode will yield about 15 lbs, and that doesn't even take a month!

If we're being realistic, you'll lose some muscle, too. But again you have good amount already. So your goal should be 250-255 lbs. Lean lbs will drop a bit but that should put you at the 15% BF.

Imagine if you had 100 lbs to lose. Things could be worse.

[Rwy]

I suppose it can only be motivational for me to make my fatness a matter of public record and should also make for a good comparison when i post after pics in a few months.

You look like a guy who used to lift but went on an eating tear. I bet 6 months of training, diet and cardio and you would be ready for aas

[< <Samson> >]

You look like a guy who used to lift but went on an eating tear. I bet 6 months of training, diet and cardio and you would be ready for aas

For sure, still looks like you have some serious mass under the fatness.

[fit2bOld]

There is a really fit buff dude in there, let him out!!!

[Neevor]

Well, I've got great news for you. You can lose that 35 lbs in less than 2 months, naturally. I've done it myself. It's going to be a rough ride for a couple months, but its just a couple of months! Simply going into ketosis mode will yield about 15 lbs, and that doesn't even take a month!

If we're being realistic, you'll lose some muscle, too. But again you have good amount already. So your goal should be 250-255 lbs. Lean lbs will drop a bit but that should put you at the 15% BF.

Yes, I know I could do it in a couple months without gear. I have done ketosis before. But I am VERY averse to dropping muscle weight. It takes so much effort to put it on. Every lb I lose is an lb I have to work my A$$ off to get back. Right now I have been dropping fat while still adding the smallest amount of muscle weight. And at my current speed I'll be to 15% at the beginning of Feb and will probably have an lb or two more of muscle. If I go the hard diet rout I'll drop to 15% by December but I'll lose 4 or 5lbs of muscle. I mean basically the difference is getting to the same BF% but w 5 to 7lbs more muscle if I can just wait more months. I'd rather take my time given those two options.

The third option I am wondering about, and the option that my post is driving at is, what if I continue losing at the rate I have been going without dropping muscle, then when I get to 20% and 275lbs around the first of December I do a lean bulk, add 10lbs of muscle and drop 15lbs of fat in 7-8 weeks (the last cycle I dropped 18lbs of fat and added 5lbs of muscle, so this would not be too far off with a good diet that cycles daily). This puts me at 15%BF but plus 10lbs of muscle around the 15th of January. I spend the next 12-14 weeks on PCT and off-cycle and this leaves me at the beginning of May at around 16 or 17%bf (I'll gain some fat trying to keep my gains, I always do but I keep 80% of them) and ready to cut for the summer. This wouldn't be my first rodeo.

The thing I don't really know about is the sides from a heavier stack (basically 1000mg+ a week running 3 compounds at 50mgED) at that 20%bf..

I used to do financial analysis so I'm pretty good at calculating things out in excel, its one of the main reasons I have done so well w bodybuilding in the past (I track my diet, workouts, bf/weight, and cycles all in a spreadsheet daily). I figure that if I wait till I get to 15% bodyfat around February to run a lean bulk I'll end up at 280lbs 16%bf and ready for a cutter in June. I wait till I hit 20% at the beginning of December and I can run two lean bulks, one this winter and again in April, leaving me around 270lbs and 12%bf in june. The latter rout gets me more muscle and less fat in the next 4 months AND I'll end up at 12% by summer which is as low as I really care to ever go again unless I compete.

Anyway, that's my thinking. Either way, going the ketosis rout is out for me. I just cant sacrifice muscle like that.

[austinite]

Well, a gram + of test and stacked at 20%? Whatever sides you will normally get would become amplified. I would skip that option.

Go with your 1st option and cut like there is no tomorrow. You need to weigh the good and the bad. The good being muscle, and the bad being fat. Well, your fat loss would FAR outweigh your muscle loss. So the fat loss wins here, making it priority over losing less muscle. MUCH MUCH less.

Who cares if you lose 5lbs of muscle? At least you will be ready to cycle again and you can hit it hard. Lean bulking takes a lot longer than most people think. It's what I'm starting Oct. 1st, but im running through a 6 month cycle to achieve reasonable goals.

In closing, I say lose the body fat, then cycle. Every one of my previous cycles that SUCKED was a result of attempting to rush my results.

Maybe others can chime in with more opinions/options Either way, I think you have incredible potential and wish you the best of luck.

[Neevor]

I bet 6 months of training, diet and cardio and you would be ready for aas

Nah, 4 months tops and that's w no muscle loss. 2 months if I did keto like Austinian is recommending. I always tell people when talking about weight loss that the more muscle you have, the easier it is to lose fat. When I started bodybuilding in 2004 I was 180lbs and 12%bf. by 2010 I had packed on 50lbs of mass and the difference between fat loss then and fat loss now is ridiculous.

BTW, checked out your progress pics. Nice work!

[Neevor]

Who cares if you lose 5lbs of muscle?

The more muscle I have added the less I can successfully add a year. My first year I added 20+ lbs of muscle and kept it. These days 5lbs of muscle gained and kept (and "kept" is the key word here) takes 4 to 5 months. Plus, a lot of research shows that when you diet hard like the keto you are suggesting, it takes a couple months afterward for your body to normalize to that weight and I have found that to be true. If you go straight from diet to gain your body adds the fat back fast so I'm thinking that even tho I would be 15% by december I would still have to wait a month or so for my body to normalize before I started a cycle and the first third or half of the cycle would be committed to regaining the muscle I lost during the diet. Also, keto jacks the kidneys.. so I eff up my kidneys and then throw two months of roids at em? Nah, I'd rather wait two months longer and keep the muscle if those are my only two choices.

Maybe others can chime in with more opinions/options Either way, I think you have incredible potential and wish you the best of luck.

I hope so! I'll wait a bit and then pester a couple of the vets to weigh in if nothing happens. Thanks for taking the time to jot down your input Austin!

[growpgrow]

are you on test replacement therapy?

[Neevor]

are you on test replacement therapy?

God no. And hopefully not for years.