When to get bloodwork, and expectations by dose before starting my cycle

[dhriscerr]

There are a lot of post on bloodwork, however 90% of them are TRT related. I have not done AAS for over 2 years and am getting ready to run a pretty standard 10 week 500mg Test E with 4 week 525mg Prop Front Load and Dbol at 40mgs ed for 4 weeks. This is a new source and for the first time in my life I got blood work done wednesday (Trying to be a lot more responsible with it as I age and have the money to ensure its done properly). My main questions are....

#1. How long should it take to see my Test levels Elevated....i.e. when should I get my second set of bloodwork done to ensure the gear is good and compare my E2 to adjust AI dose?

#2. I plan on E at .75mg eod and P at 1.25mg eod (Test E is dosed 200mg/ml, and P at 100mg/ml) for the first 4 weeks so when is the best time to get the bloodwork done? After 4 weeks will run 1.25mg of test E every 3.5 days.

#3. How much should your Free T or Serum move at 500mgs a week? I can't find anyones post with pre and during bloodwork to see how much it should elevate, I ask because its a new source and even if it is legit, there is a possibility it could be under dosed.

#4. How long after PCT should I wait to check it again, I have read 5-8 weeks in many posts, is that a pretty good consensus?

[gixxerboy1]

Where i get my bloods the just use >1500. So i couldn't get an exact test level range. You should be well over that 3 weeks in. Unless you have previous on cycle blood work you really wont know if its dosed accurately. You cant gauge off of someone else's numbers on the same cycle. Just look in the trt section. All guys get different blood levels from the same dose.
And yes i agree with the 5-8 weeks after pct

[dhriscerr]

So I should definitely be over 1500? Even if I had previous cycle blood work it wouldnt guarantee that gear was dosed right either though? I read a lot of the guys between 800-1000 on a 100-150mg cruise and normally be around 200-350 when they started TRT. Obviously every one handles it a little different just kind of wondering about where it should be average...I don't even know my baseline still "patiently " waiting for my results.

Maybe a better question is how do you know when to bump up the dosage if it is under dosed?

[gixxerboy1]

as for your trt part. Doesnt matter what their levels are at when they start because your body shuts down. On 100mg every 5 days im at close to 1100. I know guys on 200mg a week at 900-1000. So yes it can vary alot person to person

If its slightly under dosed you will never know unless you get the vial itself tested. If your test is only 150mg instead of 200mg your not going to tell by your bloodwork

[austinite]

as for your trt part. Doesnt matter what their levels are at when they start because your body shuts down. On 100mg every 5 days im at close to 1100. I know guys on 200mg a week at 900-1000. So yes it can vary alot person to person

If its slightly under dosed you will never know unless you get the vial itself tested. If your test is only 150mg instead of 200mg your not going to tell by your bloodwork

Yeah see I cant get to those numbers with that dose. Which goes to show everyone is different as mentioned above.

[dhriscerr]

Thanks guys....I'll post my pre cycle bloodwork when I get it, then I'll get tested week 3 again and see where I'm at.

[gixxerboy1]

Yeah see I cant get to those numbers with that dose. Which goes to show everyone is different as mentioned above.

its because steroids like me better then you

[austinite]

i hate my life.

[dhriscerr]

I got my results back...post full panel later when im not on my phone.

Testosterone Serum: 438 range: 384-1197
Test Free: 13.67ng dl range: 5-21.00
% Free: 3.12% range: 1.5-4.0
PSA: .4 range: 0-4.0

Estradoil: 14 range: 3-70
IGF-1 273 range: 75-275

Flaged on!:
HDL 39 range: >39
AST (SGOT) 60 range 0-44
ALT (SGIT) 95 range 0-55
Bun/creatine forgot to write it on my notes......it was high but im in microionized creatine supplement.


#1 my Serum testosterone seems low to me? Im atleast on the low end of the scale.....28yo going to be 29 in Dec.

#2 Whats is AST and ALT?

#3 should I start my cycle or try to boost natural testosterone up first????

Thanks guys!!

[gixxerboy1]

ast/alt is your liver. If they are your values normally i wouldnt be running d-bol
and no sense running a test booster. Your going to shut down your test levels on cycle anyway.

[dhriscerr]

Ok. Ill skip the dbol, wonder why my liver values are so high???? I very rarely drink. I bought UCDA off ar-r to run with dbol....should i take it anyway see if i can get those numbers down?

[gixxerboy1]

i would use it if you have it.

[dhriscerr]

Keep going through it in my head the only thing i can think of is rotating (Tylenol and ibuprofen every 3 hours for a week when my back and shoulder were killing me 2 weeks ago?

I have 60 tabs 250mgs should i run it 500mg ed for 30days or 1000mg ed for 15 days? Plan on getting blood work again after 2.5 weeks on cycle, should see an elevation by then if im running prop and enethate.

[gixxerboy1]

read atomino;s thread about the liver. I personally never used udca. So i would have to refer to that thread also for proper dosage

[dhriscerr]

Thanks, ya i was reading it and private messaged him about it to have him check it out. From what I gathered he recommends 1000mgs on cycle with orals but since i wont actually be on an oral I wondered if a smaller dose would be better.

[dhriscerr]

Http://www.webmd.com/news/20060705/s...fects-stronger

"in the study, healthy volunteers who took the maximum recommended dosage of acetaminophen, best knownvby the brand name tylenol, for two weeks showed dramatic elevations in the liver enzyme alanine aminotransferase (ALT). In a 1/4 of patients alt levels tested at more than 5 times the upper limit."

[gixxerboy1]

acetaminophen is tough on your liver i would bet that is what it is

[Atomini]

Thanks, ya i was reading it and private messaged him about it to have him check it out. From what I gathered he recommends 1000mgs on cycle with orals but since i wont actually be on an oral I wondered if a smaller dose would be better.

My dosing protocols for UDCA / TUDCA are as follows:

500-1,000mg daily for simple maintenance of liver function.

1,000mg or more daily for liver repair if there has been significant toxicity and damage currently or in the past.

If you're not running any orals right now, 500mg daily should be good to get your liver enzymes back down to normal in due time. Here's the liver thread if you need it: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-ORAL-TOXICITY!!

[t-dogg]

Which is better tudca or udca? I just started reading on this for liver more.

[dhriscerr]

Which is better tudca or udca? I just started reading on this for liver more.

I believe the T is just Taurine, please correct me if im wrong

[dhriscerr]

On a side note the local hospital will test ATL and ASL for $10 each in a wellness test that doesnt show up on medical records. Which beats taking a half day off work and driving 2hrs to get my full hormone panel . I will probably get my #'s checked again tomorrow since I havent taken Tylenol for almost a week now. That will determine if I run dbol or not. thanks guys!

[Atomini]

Which is better tudca or udca? I just started reading on this for liver more.

This is answered in the thread.

Copypasted from one of my posts there answering the exact same question:

There really is no difference. I have done some of the research myself and found that the jury is still out on which one is 'better'.

TUDCA is UDCA with a taurine amino acid chemically bound to the UDCA molecule. Hence the name Tauroursodeoxycholic acid. TUDCA is the taurine conjugate of ursodeoxycholic acid. It simply converts to UDCA when in your body.

There have been claims made that TUDCA is 'superior' to UDCA in bioavailability to the body, but ultimately this has never been proven. In the end, they're the same damn thing.

Someone in another thread asked if supplementing taurine with UDCA would be the same thing as taking TUDCA. Supplementing taurine with it is NOT the same as it being tauroursodeoxycholic acid, where the taurine amino acid is actually chemically bonded to the ursodeoxycholic acid structure. That's like saying throwing wheels in the back of the trunk of your car is the same thing as driving with the wheels ON the car. As I mentioned prior, TUDCA is touted to provide superior bioavailability over straight UDCA. But it hasn't been proven.

TUDCA is just a conjugate of UDCA. They are the exact same thing, they do the same job, they are reduced to the same stuff when processed in the GI tract.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...030.x/abstract

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article...*45-3/abstract

From the first link:

Conclusions  
After oral administration of TUDCA and UDCA, no significant differences in their absorption and in biliary bile acid secretion exist. Whether biliary enrichment with taurine conjugates of UDCA instead of glycine conjugates offers advantages in the treatment of cholestatic liver disease is unclear at present.

From the second link:

COnclusions: Low doses of TUDCA and UDCA protect Hep G2 cells from EtOH-induced cytotoxicity. However, TUDCA seems to be more effective than UDCA in reversing the damage.

[dhriscerr]

^^^^^^^^ and this is why I love this forum!

[t-dogg]

Thank you. I read elsewhere that tudca was better. Its good to double here.

[Atomini]

Even if the taurine conjugate was better, its likely a marginal difference.

[dhriscerr]

Alright So I started Monday night, 150mg Test P, 150Mg Test E EOD for the first 4 weeks then 250mg Test E only every 3.5 days for the remaining 6-8 weeks depending on 10 or 12 week cycle. Aromasin 10mg EOD as well the same night as pin. I am going to get blood work done next week during week 2 or the following week during week 3 to #1. Test Validity of Gear and #2. Check estrogen to adjust AI if needed. When is the optimum time to get tested? My WEEKDAY Pins for week 2 will be 10/2, 10/4 week 3 will be 10/8, 10/10, 10/12. I pin at 9pm at night, and I have to take time off work during the week to get to the lab (2 hours away) so I have to go first thing in the morning since I have to fast 12 hours. Would it be best to go week 2, or week 3? ( I want to go week 2 because if it isnt good gear I dont waste another week injecting, but wonder if thats too soon for estrogen fluctuations?) And I think my best time is the morning of a day that I will pin, so its atleast 36hrs from my last pin instead of the morning after a pin? Thoughts????.......and thanks in advance.

[dhriscerr]

Bump, I'm not trying to be impatient I just have to ask for time off work to get the lab done so they will want a little notice. Thanks

[dhriscerr]

Full Blood panel from 9/19/12

WBC 4.5 Range 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.38 Range 4.14-5.80
Hemoglobin 15.9 Range 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 48.1 Range 37.5-51.0
MCV 89 Range 79-97
MCH 29.6 Range 26.6-33.0
MCHC 33.1 Range 31.5-51.0
RDW 13.5 Range 12.3-15.4
Platelets 214 Range 140-415
Neutrophils 57 range 40-74
Lymphs 28 Range 14-46
Monocytes 10 Range 4-13
Eos 4 Range 0-7
Basos 1 Range 0-3
Neutrophils (Absolute) 2.6 Range 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.3 Range 0.7-4.5
Monocytes (Absolute) .5 Range 0.1-1.0
Eos (Absolute) .2 Range 0-.4
Baso (Absolute) .1 Range .0-.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 Range 0-2
Immature Grans (Abs) 0 Range 0-.1

Comp Metabolic Panel
Glucose, Serum 89 Range 65-99
BUN 20 Range 6-20
Creatinine, Serum .84 Range .76-1.27
eGFR If NonAfrican Am 119 Range >59
eGFR If Africn AM 138 Range >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 24 High Range 8-19
Sodium, Serum 137 Range 134-144
Potassium, Serum 4.2 Range 3.5-5.2
Chloride, Serum 100 Range 97-108
Carbon Dioxide, Total 23 Range 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.0 Range 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, Serum 6.4 Range 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.4 Range 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.0 Range 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 2.2 Range 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total .6 Range .0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 62 Range 25-150
AST (SGOT) 60 High Range 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 95 High Range 0-55

Lipid Panel
Cholesterol, Total 137 Range 100-199
Triglycerides 69 Range 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 39 Low >39

VLDL Cholesterol Cal 14 Range 5-40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 84 Range 0-99

Thyroid Panel With TSH
TSH 1.120 Range .450-4.500
Thyroxine (T4) 7.6 Range 4.5-12
T3 Uptake 30 Range 24-39
Free Thyroxine Index 2.3 Range 1.2-4.9

Testosterone, Free/Tot Equilib
Testosterone, Serum 438 Range 348-1197
Testosterone, Free 13.67 Range 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 3.12 Range 1.5-4.2

Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum .4 Range 0.0-4.0

Insulin-Like Growth Factor 1 273 Range 75-275

Estradoil, Sensitive 14 Range >15 Male 3-70

[dhriscerr]

Stopped taking Tylenol and Ibuprofene for 2 weeks before testing again

9/26/12

****Chemistry Wellness Testing*****
ALTI 62 Range 12-78
*As of July 9, 2012, Our Siemens 200 EXL Chemistry analyzer updated the ALT test to an improved, internationally
calibrated method. A comparison/correlation review showed the new method reported an average DECREASE of 10 U/L
below teh previous ALT method. *

AST (SGOT) 37 Range 15-37


First test were preformed by LabCorp
Second wellness testing was done by local clinic.

[dhriscerr]

I will be going to get a full male hormone panel test again at 8 am tomorrow. Will update when I get my results.

I think with the new results and the conclusion that Tylenol was more than likely the contributing factor to my elevated Liver levels I will start 40mg of Dbol split in 20mg/2ed upon waking 6am and before I lift at 5pm. I will run it for approximately 3 weeks starting after my blood draw in the morning with a local wellness check after 1 week.

[dhriscerr]

Got my results and gear is good.
>1500 Test Serum
>73.38 Test Free
4.89 %Free


My estrogen is at 42 though on scale of 3-70 pre cycle it was 14.

I am at 10mg eod aromasin (Ar-r) should I bump it to 10mg ed?

The other thing is I am front loading prop with my enethate so essentially the first 4 weeks im on over a gram a week. 150mg prop eod and 250mg enathate 2 times a week. Estrogen should drop some when I level off at 500mg enathate a week?