Week 2 Update

[MyteeJ]

Hey Everyone -

I thought I would post some week 2 updates for anyone interested. 39 year old male, 6'3, 185, initial trt level 366. Protocol:

Testosterone Cypionate – 300 mg Weekly
Anastrozole - .05 mg Twice Weekly
B-12 – 1000 mcg Injection Weekly
HCG – 50 mcg Twice Weekly

TevTropin – 1.5 IU 5 on 2 off
Sermorelin – 20 mcg every night before sleep
Daily Vitamins - Fish Oil, D, Glucosimine, B12, Calcium Magnesium

First 12 days were awful for sleep and started melatonin this week. Sleep is "normal" now.
Tendinitis in elbows feels better but not good enough to go full on with lifting in gym. Arthritis not a bother at all at the moment. Was hoping to improve nerve damage in leg that leaves foot tingly and sometimes painful but it has become worse (usually does with cold).
Running (3 mi) is great at the moment. Specifically notice greater muscle strength/endurance at end of run.
Simple exercises (push ups / sit ups) seem to be getting easier and taking longer to fatigue.
Focus, energy, libido, and general overall "feeling" better since start.
I stopped drinking alcohol when I started this and an already clean diet was pushed farther with no "cheat" meals. I also increased daily caloric intake with more carbs and protein since I was below what I should have had.

Been reading lots of posts and I appreciate everyone sharing experience, knowledge, and advice.

[pugster]

is this self medicated? 300mg w/k is not a TRT dose.....

[MyteeJ]

is this self medicated? 300mg w/k is not a TRT dose.....

Doc supervised and not for mass gains just elevated test levels.

[MyteeJ]

is this self medicated? 300mg w/k is not a TRT dose.....

So just reread reply and may have taken this out of context - are you saying this isn't a good protocol for trt?

[kelkel]

He means it's an exceptionally high dosage. Normal TRT starting dosage is around 100mg per week and then titrate after BW as needed. Some members here run around 200mg per week and that really is the high end. It doesn't mean that their T level is higher on that amount as we all metabolize these substances differently.

At 300mg weekly you probably will end up with a supraphysiologic T level. It may also result in a nasty spike in your E level but at least you're on adex at a decent dosage. Most docs in the know will start patients with the injectable and wait for BW after 4 weeks or so to add the next substance. It's their way of seeing exactly what results are achieved from that particular substance.

Your HCG dosage seems particularly low. Norm is around 250IU twice or three times per week. I'm curious his logic here? Also curious about the TevTropin and how he wrote you this as you normally have to fit into specific catagories for this to be written, eg: stunted growth, etc. This is why Sermorelin is popular and easily written by docs as they don't have specific criteria to meet to do so. Also, do you know what your IGF1 level was pre-TRT?

When is your next BW planned for? Very interested in how things come back and would love to have you post your results here for analysis ahead of your doc appt. That way your going in prepared for your appt instead of blind sided. So, get copies ahead of time. Speaking of BW in the Finding a Physician sticky there are examples if you need them.

Welcome Mytee.

kel

[pugster]

kelkel pretty much said it all , most docs start off slow /low and build up as needed , i.e you might feel fine at 100mg a week and need no A.I , what the doc has started you on is abit like using an AK47 to shoot a squirrel , higher dosage = more chance of sides ,more sides = more compounds added to control the sides from the original drug= needing to lookout for sides from the second drug used to control the sides from the first........ you get the idea

[kelkel]

^^^Yep. Like domino's

[TheSpoonyBard]

Wow. Can I get your docs phone number. I'm curious to see what he'd prescribe for me with my total T level at 187 vs your 366! 600mg Test cyp weekly? Yes please! Sounds like you got a keeper there bud.

[Vettester]

Wow. Can I get your docs phone number. I'm curious to see what he'd prescribe for me with my total T level at 187 vs your 366! 600mg Test cyp weekly? Yes please! Sounds like you got a keeper there bud.

Spoon, this isn't like a gas tank comparison, where his tank is at 3/8 full, and yours is 1/4 tank full, so let's just give you more gas to get the tank to full. Depending on the diagnosis, let's presume you and the OP are both secondary (?), the serum results would just mean that level of LH suppression is probably more significant in your situation than with the OP's situation.

Once exogenous test and HCG are introduced, the natural production of LH will then be a non-factor, and the serum levels will be exclusively dependent on the medications being taken by the patients. So, even though his baseline serum levels were higher than yours, once both of you are on TRT, your serum levels might be higher than his when on the exact same protocol. It's simply based on how your body will metabolize and process the exogenous therapy, which is different for all of us.

[steroid.com 1]

To put initial starting Testosterone dosages into perspective here; Drs. John Crisler and Mark Gordon are now starting men out at 60mg to 80mg and getting great results.

I agree with kel, 300mg is an anabolic dosage and way to much for TRT; depending upon what your next BW tells you I doubt highly that you can sustain this for any extended period of time.

Keep in mind, dosages at this level will put serum levels well beyond normal physiological levels and when this happens it disrupts homeostasis and down stream conversion to other hormones will be effected in a negative way.

[MyteeJ]

Kel, Pug, Vette, & gdevine - Thanks a TON for all of your replies.

I need to add some points of clarification. "Doc Supervised" - very loose term here and would rather not elaborate. I suspected I was low on T, got BW, and started the protocol I listed above with guidance. It's on me to get BW and make adjustments so that's a big part of why I am on here.

My IGF level was at 223 so it was good to begin with. I went with gh to help with healing the numerous injuries (or aches from them) that are really giving me grief.

I was gong to go for BW in 6 weeks but after reading posts, I think it should be sooner based on advice. Thanks again everyone.

[MyteeJ]

He means it's an exceptionally high dosage. Normal TRT starting dosage is around 100mg per week and then titrate after BW as needed. Some members here run around 200mg per week and that really is the high end. It doesn't mean that their T level is higher on that amount as we all metabolize these substances differently.

At 300mg weekly you probably will end up with a supraphysiologic T level. It may also result in a nasty spike in your E level but at least you're on adex at a decent dosage. Most docs in the know will start patients with the injectable and wait for BW after 4 weeks or so to add the next substance. It's their way of seeing exactly what results are achieved from that particular substance.

Your HCG dosage seems particularly low. Norm is around 250IU twice or three times per week. I'm curious his logic here? Also curious about the TevTropin and how he wrote you this as you normally have to fit into specific catagories for this to be written, eg: stunted growth, etc. This is why Sermorelin is popular and easily written by docs as they don't have specific criteria to meet to do so. Also, do you know what your IGF1 level was pre-TRT?

When is your next BW planned for? Very interested in how things come back and would love to have you post your results here for analysis ahead of your doc appt. That way your going in prepared for your appt instead of blind sided. So, get copies ahead of time. Speaking of BW in the Finding a Physician sticky there are examples if you need them.

Welcome Mytee.

kel

Hey Kel,

I may go for BW even before the 4 week mark now that I have some opinions that I respect and have taken them into account for what I am doing. I hear about "stickies" etc on help with BW but don't seem to find them. If I am going for BW on my own, what's your advice here? Hopefully the fact that I am going about this differently won't cast a negative light on my participation here. Thanks.

[steroid.com 1]

^^^^Stickies are the IMPORTANT threads that are permanently at the top of the forum.

[MyteeJ]

^^^^Stickies are the IMPORTANT threads that are permanently at the top of the forum.

Was looking in the incorrect place - found em thanks!

[kelkel]

No, it will not cast a negative light whatsoever. At least the items you have are prescription and we (this forum) can help guide you the rest of the way. Put that together with the way your educating yourself and you will do fine!

I would wait until 4 weeks for your blood work. Give your body a chance to settle in to this protocol. You're already on an AI so your E should not be out of control. Other than coming in with a high T level you should be ok. I'd suggest since BW is so close to stick it out, test at the 4 week mark and then titrate down. It may give you a better idea of how much you have to adjust your protocol at this point.

Stickies are the educational threads at the top of this forum that don't move like the others do. BW is in the "Finding a Physician" sticky. All the others are right there as well. Get reading and post your results with ranges when you get them. The guys here will chime in to help you!

Glad to have you here!

kel

[LevMyshkin]

To put initial starting Testosterone dosages into perspective here; Drs. John Crisler and Mark Gordon are now starting men out at 60mg to 80mg and getting great results.

I agree with kel, 300mg is an anabolic dosage and way to much for TRT; depending upon what your next BW tells you I doubt highly that you can sustain this for any extended period of time.

Keep in mind, dosages at this level will put serum levels well beyond normal physiological levels and when this happens it disrupts homeostasis and down stream conversion to other hormones will be effected in a negative way.

Exactly. My TRT clinician and I are buds and one of their other offices are starting guys out at 200mg/week. They're averaging guys around 250mg/week and they have several people as high as 300mg/week. This is insane, IMHO, and that particular clinic is cruising for a law suit as soon as someone has a life threatening medical situation arise.

300mg/week is, just as Gdevine and Kel said, an anabolic dose. It's not a therapeutic one. The risk of throwing a blood clot and stroking out is a real danger when you start looking at exogenous administration of test in those high of doses for what is supposed to be a medical therapy for the rest of one's life.

There's a reason why the recreational use of AAS is referred to as "cycling" - because one doesn't stay on those high of doses continually. I do know people who are on 200mg/week, but these tend to be the outliers in the TRT data and (again just my opinion) are the exceptions rather than the rule.

[MyteeJ]

Exactly. My TRT clinician and I are buds and one of their other offices are starting guys out at 200mg/week. They're averaging guys around 250mg/week and they have several people as high as 300mg/week. This is insane, IMHO, and that particular clinic is cruising for a law suit as soon as someone has a life threatening medical situation arise.

300mg/week is, just as Gdevine and Kel said, an anabolic dose. It's not a therapeutic one. The risk of throwing a blood clot and stroking out is a real danger when you start looking at exogenous administration of test in those high of doses for what is supposed to be a medical therapy for the rest of one's life.

There's a reason why the recreational use of AAS is referred to as "cycling" - because one doesn't stay on those high of doses continually. I do know people who are on 200mg/week, but these tend to be the outliers in the TRT data and (again just my opinion) are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Hey Lev -

I appreciate the feedback. I apologize for not putting ALL of this in the right context and for sharing everything more fully. This phase of TRT - if it can be called that in my case - is something that I am running for 10 weeks and will be followed with HCG 10 days after my last T injection. The guidance I was provided was this would elevate my T level (from mid 300's) initially then ongoing dosage would be TBD.

[LevMyshkin]

Hey Lev -

I appreciate the feedback. I apologize for not putting ALL of this in the right context and for sharing everything more fully. This phase of TRT - if it can be called that in my case - is something that I am running for 10 weeks and will be followed with HCG 10 days after my last T injection. The guidance I was provided was this would elevate my T level (from mid 300's) initially then ongoing dosage would be TBD.

So, the initial 10 weeks will be t 300mg/week and then a lower dose? My clinician did something similar for me. My test was sitting at 190ng/dl so they front loaded my first two weeks at 200mg/week then dropped me back to 100mg/week. Once I leveled out at that, they did more BW, re-evaluated, etc. At any rate, I'm at 140mg/week and .5mg adex.

What's the current maintenance dose they're looking at for you? I get why they would front load a higher dose for several reasons, but to do it that high for 2.5 months sounds a bit long.

[MyteeJ]

No, it will not cast a negative light whatsoever. At least the items you have are prescription and we (this forum) can help guide you the rest of the way. Put that together with the way your educating yourself and you will do fine!

I would wait until 4 weeks for your blood work. Give your body a chance to settle in to this protocol. You're already on an AI so your E should not be out of control. Other than coming in with a high T level you should be ok. I'd suggest since BW is so close to stick it out, test at the 4 week mark and then titrate down. It may give you a better idea of how much you have to adjust your protocol at this point.

Stickies are the educational threads at the top of this forum that don't move like the others do. BW is in the "Finding a Physician" sticky. All the others are right there as well. Get reading and post your results with ranges when you get them. The guys here will chime in to help you!

Glad to have you here!

kel

Hey Kel -

I totally appreciate your help and feedback. I realized that I didn't put all of my situation out there so you can see more of my situation via reply to Lev.

I am hoping that I can find the proper maintenance/ongoing protocol out at the 4, 6, or 20 week mark because there is no way I could continue with the current program. I have all of the other health variables in place (diet, exercise, etc) so I am hoping I can get the T level up and maintain some of it "naturally". i realize that all of us need extra help sooner or later so hence the quotes.

I have a local doc that comes highly recommended who I will visit shortly. I chose my current route b/c:
1 - it would have taken me a month to just get in that doc's office and
2 - after 2 years of knowing I was low I wanted to get started ASAP b/c the low T was impacting every aspect of my life.

Always appreciate the help and guidance. Enjoy the weekend!

[MyteeJ]

For sure lower dose and in this phase it's my call on maint until I see another doc.

I am getting BW in 2 weeks so that's when maint protocol will be adjusted.

140 mg a week sounds hefty but I understand we are all different. I hope that's not my case but we shall see.

[kelkel]

Understood. Less is more in the TRT world. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Agree with lev that the front-load is way to long and probably not necessary.

[MyteeJ]

Hey Guys -

I am preparing for my week 4 bloodwork and want to run this by the group. I have a dr that will order the tests for me but I want to make sure I ask for the right measurements. Based on what I have seen/suggested I was going to request the following:

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA “Free and Loosely Bound”)
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• SHBG
• DHT
• Estradiol
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA
• IGF -1, IGFBP
Vitamin D

I know some of us were discussing Thyroid on another thread and I was able to get a copy of my baseline BW. My thyroid measurements were:

TSH - 2.240 uIU/mL .450 - 4.500
T4Free (Direct) - 1.59 ng/dL 0.82 - 1.77

I don't think I have an issue there but I'll defer to those in the know. Thanks as always for your help!