Urgent help please

[slinkyfox]

I had my bloods done on the 29/11/2012 i started my cycle on 30/11/2012 its a test enanthate and tren enanthate cycle.
I got my bloods back yesterday and my total testosterone was 13 nmol/L (10.0-33.0) or 374 ng/dL
I pinned again this morning.

Should i stop my cycle and do proper pct then see the Dr about HRT (should i cancel next weeks appointment or maybe try tell him im self medicating trt)? or finish it and then let my natural testosterone return to normal then get bloods done and see the Dr about HRT?

If i were top stop today, 2nd pin (day 4) how long will i have to wait for my natural test to return to my "normal" levels?

If i wait till i have finished my cycle and out of pct how long will i have to wait before i can get an accurate blood reading of total/free testosterone? will i lose much muscle mass in this time?

I have a Drs appointment sometime next week im booked in to ask him if we can look into HRT should i cancel this appointment?? what should i dooo help please

[slinkyfox]

sort of thinking i should cancel the appointment next week, finish my cycle then climb back to the top with nolva 40/40/20/20/20/20 Clomid 100/100/50/50/25/25 wait 2 weeks then get bloods done again

fuarrk this is doing my head in!!!!!!!!!!!

[AD]

Hi fox. How old are you? How were you feeling in general when you had that blood test done?

[marcus300]

What are your stats?
previous cycle history and everything you have took?
previous dosages

[ScotchGuard02]

It takes a couple of weeks for the accumulated levels of Test E to really build in your body and about a month before you really feel it. Give it some time. Steroids aren't magic, you're not gonna feel like superman after a couple of shots. You do sound like you're new to the game. If this is the case, you should drop the Tren. That Tren can mess you up.

[slinkyfox]

Hi fox. How old are you? How were you feeling in general when you had that blood test done?

i was feeling fine, in good spirits i personally thought i had good testosterone levels but now that i think ive ate at a perfect diet for 1-2 years and i was at a decent size
Im 24 i did my 1st cycle at 23 wich was dbol and test e for 8 weeks was 450mg test-e a week and 30-40mg dbol ED for 4 weeks

here is my frame

ps. i had just finished a 7 month cut. was on DNP for a majority of that time my last week i was dosing between 600-1000mg a day i stopped because i got paranoid of burning muscle

[AD]

i personally feel that when it comes to low test and trt, the most important criteria is actually your subjective feelings. there are people with low total test and feel pretty good with it. they obviously dont need any treatment. there are people with seemingly normal test but feel lousy and lethargic all the time. these people will need further evaluation.

so for your case, you total test is borderline low. and you felt great at that point when the blood was taken. it may have been artificially lowered by your previous cycle, or from the dnp. but if you felt good, my guess is that you dont need trt.

[slinkyfox]

i personally feel that when it comes to low test and trt, the most important criteria is actually your subjective feelings. there are people with low total test and feel pretty good with it. they obviously dont need any treatment. there are people with seemingly normal test but feel lousy and lethargic all the time. these people will need further evaluation.

so for your case, you total test is borderline low. and you felt great at that point when the blood was taken. it may have been artificially lowered by your previous cycle, or from the dnp. but if you felt good, my guess is that you dont need trt.

thanks for the response im wondering if it was the dnp and running my calories really low. anyways i read somewhere to try 100mg clomid for 30 days during pct apparently its meant to kick start ya nuts so going to do that, run my pct for 6 weeks have 2 weeks off clomid then get bloods done. im hoping it will fix it if it doesnt then i can tell my dr i have tried the clomid test.
as for feelings before i cycled there were days where im just not in the mood for the gym but somehow i push through this. i was never been able to break past 80-85kg barrier on the bench press so im think its cos of low testosterone. low testosterone = low androgens = less strength?

[AD]

could just be the low calories that caused the decreased strength. if you're on a cut, you wouldn't be setting any personal best

are you're going to stop your cycle, and do pct?

[slinkyfox]

Ah ok yeah your right with the strength decrease cos of low cal I lost abit of strength. I put 10kg to my atg in the 1st 4 days only at day 5 now
I'm gunna complete my cycle no way in hell am I gunna do pct twice lol besides I'm probly already going to be supressed by a fair bit.

[AD]

sort of thinking i should cancel the appointment next week, finish my cycle then climb back to the top with nolva 40/40/20/20/20/20 Clomid 100/100/50/50/25/25 wait 2 weeks then get bloods done again

fuarrk this is doing my head in!!!!!!!!!!!

after you're done with your current cycle, i suggest you do the standard nolva/clomid pct like you stated above, instead of just clomid like you stated below. nolva and clomid compliment each other and do a better job combined than either one alone.

thanks for the response im wondering if it was the dnp and running my calories really low. anyways i read somewhere to try 100mg clomid for 30 days during pct apparently its meant to kick start ya nuts so going to do that, run my pct for 6 weeks have 2 weeks off clomid then get bloods done. im hoping it will fix it if it doesnt then i can tell my dr i have tried the clomid test.
as for feelings before i cycled there were days where im just not in the mood for the gym but somehow i push through this. i was never been able to break past 80-85kg barrier on the bench press so im think its cos of low testosterone. low testosterone = low androgens = less strength?

if you check your bloodworks too soon after pct, your total test may still be high due the effects of the pct. if you want to have a good gauge of your new baseline after the cycle, wait about 6-8wks after completing pct.

good luck!

[slinkyfox]

after you're done with your current cycle, i suggest you do the standard nolva/clomid pct like you stated above, instead of just clomid like you stated below. nolva and clomid compliment each other and do a better job combined than either one alone.



if you check your bloodworks too soon after pct, your total test may still be high due the effects of the pct. if you want to have a good gauge of your new baseline after the cycle, wait about 6-8wks after completing pct.

good luck!

ahh ok thanks yeah i was going to run nolva and clomid together just with a high dose of clomid for the same time maybe ill just stick to the 100/100/50/50/25/25.
fark 6-8 weeks! my gains will be gone by that time!!!!!
praying my test returns to normal

[iSwanson]

Did you run a pct after your first cycle. If you didn't then you may have ****ed yourself. Not trying to be harsh just truthful.
Please update us on your progress

[fit2bOld]

Gains will only be gone if you get lazy during pct. gotta keep hitting the gym and eating properly. You don't just do this while on gear. This is where guys lose it because they just don't tough it out and work to keep it!!!

[oldnsedentary]

Gains will only be gone if you get lazy during pct. gotta keep hitting the gym and eating properly. You don't just do this while on gear. This is where guys lose it because they just don't tough it out and work to keep it!!!

No, way. A person who uses gear to push past his normal limits will regress over time back to those normal limits. A great deal is lost around PCT time because testosterone levels drop to almost nothing. I had my test checked one time during PCT, and it was barely 100.

It is very difficult to keep any level of muscle with a test level of 100.

People who cycle once they have maxed out naturally are constantly playing a game of ballooning up 20 pounds past their natural limit and then losing it, maybe hopping on the next cycle when they have lost 15 pounds or so, and blowing up by another 20, and losing as they come off. They keep cycling, hoping to keep it, and maybe they go back "on" in time to keep 5 pounds or so of the unnatural gains, but if you stay off the gear, you are going back to your natural limits, no matter how proper your diet and workout.

With all of that having been said, there is no way a 23 or 24 year old has hit his natural limits yet. I am guessing somebody who does not have the patience to max himself out naturally might keep a lot more of his gains, but only because those are gains that he could have made naturally. It would have just taken more time.

[swm1972]

No, way. A person who uses gear to push past his normal limits will regress over time back to those normal limits. A great deal is lost around PCT time because testosterone levels drop to almost nothing. I had my test checked one time during PCT, and it was barely 100.

It is very difficult to keep any level of muscle with a test level of 100.

People who cycle once they have maxed out naturally are constantly playing a game of ballooning up 20 pounds past their natural limit and then losing it, maybe hopping on the next cycle when they have lost 15 pounds or so, and blowing up by another 20, and losing as they come off. They keep cycling, hoping to keep it, and maybe they go back "on" in time to keep 5 pounds or so of the unnatural gains, but if you stay off the gear, you are going back to your natural limits, no matter how proper your diet and workout.

With all of that having been said, there is no way a 23 or 24 year old has hit his natural limits yet. I am guessing somebody who does not have the patience to max himself out naturally might keep a lot more of his gains, but only because those are gains that he could have made naturally. It would have just taken more time.

This is my experience as well. I drop back to my doctor prescribed testosterone HRT dose and slowly start losing size despite maintaining dietary intake and training. I lose more in size then strength. But both slowly take a toll. Maybe an age thing? Maybe a 20 or 30 something wouldn't see this as much as my 40 year old arse.

[MickeyKnox]

Gains will only be gone if you get lazy during pct. gotta keep hitting the gym and eating properly. You don't just do this while on gear. This is where guys lose it because they just don't tough it out and work to keep it!!!

This is my experience as well. I drop back to my doctor prescribed testosterone HRT dose and slowly start losing size despite maintaining dietary intake and training. I lose more in size then strength. But both slowly take a toll. Maybe an age thing? Maybe a 20 or 30 something wouldn't see this as much as my 40 year old arse.

I totally agree with Fit2bOld. Although you will lose a small percentage of weight, mostly water..you will hold onto most of your weight gain (LBM) IF you increase your cals to reflect your newly acquired LBM.

If you maintain increased caloric intake and steady exercise, you will NOT RETURN to your pre cycle body weight. That's a physiological and biological fact.

[swm1972]

I totally agree with Fit2bOld. Although you will lose a small percentage of weight, mostly water..you will hold onto most of your weight gain (LBM) IF you increase your cals to reflect your newly acquired LBM.

If you maintain increased caloric intake and steady exercise, you will NOT RETURN to your pre cycle body weight. That's a physiological and biological fact.

So you are saying hormonal levels don't reflect ability to maintain gains? I believe food to be the ultimate anabolic. But when I go above maintenance on cycle I gain fat so its a balancing act. I can't see going above maintenance off cycle being anymore forgiving. Not being a smart ass here. Don't want our pissing match in the other tread spilling over here. If you can explain how HRT dose over maintenance calories doesn't equal fat gain I'm interested. Because maintaining weight isn't the answer to me bits maintaining lean body mass. If I get soft looking and gain fat but maintain overall weight, for me that's a loss. I have an active job. Compete/train with men half my age that are elite military. I'd rather lose some mass then get soft gains. If it doesn't react when I flex its a liability.

Where does the balance come in? Do you gain any additional fat? I lean bulk for this reason. I can't let it all go post cycle to make myself feel better when stepping on the scale. I'd rather say lean.

[MickeyKnox]

So you are saying hormonal levels don't reflect ability to maintain gains? I believe food to be the ultimate anabolic. But when I go above maintenance on cycle I gain fat so its a balancing act. If youre gaining too much fat, adjust your macros and maybe add some cardio..hello?? Mcfly?? I can't see going above maintenance off cycle being anymore forgiving. Not being a smart ass here. Don't want our pissing match in the other tread spilling over here. If you can explain how HRT dose over maintenance calories doesn't equal fat gain I'm interested. Because maintaining weight isn't the answer to me bits maintaining lean body mass. If I get soft looking and gain fat but maintain overall weight, for me that's a loss. I have an active job. Compete/train with men half my age that are elite military. I'd rather lose some mass then get soft gains. If it doesn't react when I flex its a liability. <--- I have no clue what you just wrote in bold. If you could re write that i would be more than happy to respond. And that other thread you're referring too, im done there.

Where does the balance come in? Do you gain any additional fat? I lean bulk for this reason. I can't let it all go post cycle to make myself feel better when stepping on the scale. I'd rather say lean. Youre rambling now. My comment and opinion is crystal clear. If you gain LBM, you need to FEED that NEWLY ACQUIRED LBM. Do you understand what im saying?

Swm1972, this is basic dieting information that can be found anywhere, but particularly in one of my favorite buildings..you know, the one usually made with red bricks and contains these interesting things called books?

Do you even read what i write? Or do you simply skip to the parts that suit you and ignore the facts? I seriously question your ability to comprehend basic English.

I realize you enjoy arguing, but are you now going to argue with science and basic physiology? Are you kidding me? If you continue down this road i'll have no choice but to completely ignore you because you dont make any sense. And for a guy who loves the sound of his own voice, that's gotta hurt..

[swm1972]

Do you even read what i write? Or do you simply skip to the parts that suit you and ignore the facts? I seriously question your ability to comprehend basic English.

I realize you enjoy arguing, but are you now going to argue with science and basic physiology? Are you kidding me? If you continue down this road i'll have no choice but to completely ignore you because you dont make any sense. And for a guy who loves the sound of his own voice, that's gotta hurt..

Ignore me please. You are an insufferable douche bag. You can't even respond without coming across as a condescending prick. Anyone with the simplest command of English would know what I was meant. You got your ass handed to you in the other thread so you are done there and carry over in another thread starting the same shit on a different subject matter. You have a role. Leave me out of it. I'm tired of being dragged into your childish pissing matches based upon your vast knowledge of all the threads you've read.

Feed your mass huh? Just because you maintain the same weight doesn't mean you maintain the same lean mass. Go above maintenance on cycle and you can gain fat. Go above maintenance off cycle and I guarantee you will gain fat. But if you feel better stepping in the scale seeing the same number and can convince yourself you lean mass numbers are the same. Go ahead and live in denial.

[MickeyKnox]

How many times are you going to edit your posts? Until they sound right? Jesus Christ..get a life..

[panntastic]

Ignore me please. You are an insufferable douche bag. You can't even respond without coming across as a condescending prick. Anyone with the simplest command of English would know what I was meant. You got your ass handed to you in the other thread so you are done there and carry over in another thread starting the same shit on a different subject matter. You have a role. Leave me out of it. I'm tired of being dragged into your childish pissing matches based upon your vast knowledge of all the threads you've read.

Feed your mass huh? Just because you maintain the same weight doesn't mean you maintain the same lean mass. Go above maintenance on cycle and you can gain fat. Go above maintenance off cycle and I guarantee you will gain fat. But if you feel better stepping in the scale seeing the same number and can convince yourself you lean mass numbers are the same. Go ahead and live in denial.

Not one to be drawn into this but if diet is correct and macros are spot on surely you will gain lean body mass not fat?
Even at 500cals above maintenance you won't gain fat.
Whether on cycle or off
If cals are clean macro split is spot on no bf% should be made.

[swm1972]

How many times are you going to edit your posts? Until they sound right? Jesus Christ..get a life..

I post with a phone app and get auto corrects that require attention and editing on occasion. My bad that something I do once again puts sand into you vagina. Way to stick to the important issues. Run an AI. And ignore me like you promised a few posts back.

[swm1972]

Not one to be drawn into this but if diet is correct and macros are spot on surely you will gain lean body mass not fat?
Even at 500cals above maintenance you won't gain fat.
Whether on cycle or off
If cals are clean macro split is spot on no bf% should be made.

Panntasic. As you age you might find those calorie intake calculations don't work so well for you. There are variables that affect BMR or REE that go beyond lean mass/calorie intake. I've not seen age adjusted calorie intake info and this isn't an one size fits all equation.

This is what I am talking about:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16151460/

CONCLUSION: Aging is accompanied by a decrease in REE that is significantly greater than what is predicted by variations in body composition. This decrease may reach a mean level of about 500-800 kj/day.

At 500 calories over maintenance (on calculations meant for you younger guys) based on factoring in age as the study mentions above you could easily find yourself 1000-1300 calories above baseline. Development is a much more difficult balancing act when you get older. Fat seems to comes so much easier then it once did.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15817855/

CONCLUSION: The present approach establishes an REE-body composition link with the use of a model at the cellular level. The combination of 2 aging-related factors (ie, decline in both the mass and the cellular fraction of organs and tissues) may account for the lower REE observed in elderly adults.

And as you age it becomes more and more of an issue.

[MickeyKnox]

Not one to be drawn into this but if diet is correct and macros are spot on surely you will gain lean body mass not fat?
Even at 500cals above maintenance you won't gain fat.
Whether on cycle or off
If cals are clean macro split is spot on no bf% should be made.

Pan, dont bother..you're wasting your time here. Just leave him be..

[swm1972]

Pan, dont bother..you're wasting your time here. Just leave him be..

Yep. I post medical studies and its a waste of time to respond. You cut and paste Wikipedia links and its gospel. Ignore me please. Let the grown ups talk.

The links I posted are relevant current medical studies that shoot your one size fits all over maintenance theories down fairly quickly. Once again you are commenting on something's you have zero experience concerning because you haven't lived it. I am 40 and live it everyday. Unfortunately we didn't even get the benefit of Wikipedias opinion on age and metabolism effects upon each other. You are letting us down.

[mikey hulk]

I don't come on this site to read about how much you two like each other
Nobody cares take it to the lounge