No HCG or estrogen blocker

[jamull2852]

I am currently on my 3rd doctor that told me I dont need HCG or an estrogen blocker. I was put on 200mg a week by doc #1 which was high and causing me to have back acne and be bloated all the time. Estrogen level were at 50. Went to 2nd doc. and he just wanted blood work after blood work with out making any changes and told me the high estrogen levels are normal. So I visited doc #3 yesterday and he told me to cut down to 100mg a week. By this point I had already dropped to 160mg a week on my own split up on 2 shots. He said no HCG was needed and also no estrogen blocker. He told me he would check the estrogen and my test again in a month and go from their. At what levels should I need a estrogen blocker and do I really need HCG. I read everyone on here take all 3 and just cant seem to find a doctor to help. What will HCG help?

[bullshark99]

Yep, you need to find a new Doc, 200 per week will most definetly increase E2 to an undesireable level in MOST individuals. HcG, read the stickies on that and make a decision, not everyone uses it, I didnt at first, but I would quit my protocol all together if I could no longer use it

[Wes201]

Yep, you need to find a new Doc, 200 per week will most definetly increase E2 to an undesireable level in MOST individuals. HcG, read the stickies on that and make a decision, not everyone uses it, I didnt at first, but I would quit my protocol all together if I could no longer use it

Bro, get rid of that doctor, hes a moron, and just get your ancillaries on your own. They are very easy to find on the net. Ar-r has all your estrogen blockers and hcg is easy to get at online pharmacies

[kelkel]

Level out on your 100mg per week protocol, get your bloods and make sure your E2 is a sensitive assay. If you use Labcorp I can give you the proper codes so they don't screw it up. Then make a decision on changes. If you splitting your shots you may find you need zero or minimal AI which should be your goal.

And yes, while all this is going on start looking for a better doc. Read the sticky on Finding a Doc.

kel

[steroid.com 1]

Copy the Stickies above on HCG and Estradiol and email to your Doctor...this will help.

If not, time for a new Doctor that is trained correctly.

[unscarred]

It takes a while and is frustrating but I have to echo what these knowledgeable bunch of guys above me are saying. FWIW I started out on 200mg cyp per week and my E2 was competely fine for five weeks, by eight weeks it was way above normal. It snuck up on me unexpected. I used the sticky about how to find a good doc and worked it for a couple months going through multiple docs but eventually accomplished it.

[SD3000]

It's a shame it's so hard to find a good Doc, especially considering these are life-long treatments where a bad Doc can do some real damage or leave you lacking the care you need.

[steroid.com 1]

It's a shame it's so hard to find a good Doc, especially considering these are life-long treatments where a bad Doc can do some real damage or leave you lacking the care you need.

You got that right; I see it here day in and day out.

Physicians prescribing therapies who don't know what they are doing and hurting men even more.

It one reason why I and guys like Kel, vet, bass, HRT and others are here so we can help.

[jamull2852]

Thanks everyone....this is my first visit with this doctor (3rd doc.) and he suggested the 100mg which sound more like TRT dosage. He said the high estrogen level were from high dosage but after my next blood test he will check again and he seemed pretty cool about prescribing it if I needed it. Now the HCG is something I need to educate my self about more, pros vs cons. So as of now I am just going to stick with 100mg a week, 1 shot a week. Hopefully this will bring down my estrogen and help with bloat and acne. If my estrogen doesnt come into range do you think injected 2x weekly will help estrogen levels? And of coarse when I get my results back I will post them here, but I think hes just doing the testosterone and estrogen. Now say I want to have kids again is it poss.? Ive been on TRT for 5 months and heard yes and heard no. Is this something HCG helps? Well I will read more and more.. but your comments are still welcome guys. Thanks in advance.

[steroid.com 1]

Did you read the HCG sticky?

[jamull2852]

Yes at first I just glanced over it but I just read it again and will try to print and bring to my doc. Now when I was at the doctor he compared my balls to some fake ones on a string and I was compared to the biggest one and I honestly haven't noticed any shrinkage in the area or pain. Does this mean I don't need HCG yet? From what I've read it helps reduce pain and you get your size back but also need to be on it if I plan on having more children or try to come trt correct?

Unscarred- I was the same way, my estrogen felt fine the first few weeks and then around weeks 4-6 my libido spiked like crazy my wife was like man is this going to be like this all the time lol well around weeks 7-8 I felt it slowly coming down and I noticed acne on my back and felt bloated so I knew my e2 had spike and cause me to lose my libido which still to this day hasn't come back like week 4-6.... Those were some good times. Well after I level out at 100mg I will check e2 again and then talk to him about hcg and benefits of it and ask to try it amd hope all works out.

[jamull2852]

Ok I've got my results back for being on 100mg once a week.
The test was done hours before my next shot so it's exactly 7 days from last shot to test.

Test- 533
Free Test- 12.9
Estrogen- 29

Is my estrogen ok at this level? I feel like I still don't have a libido.
I'm going talk to my doctor about HCG this week scared of being completely shut down. What kind of dosage should I be taking? 250iu's x2 a week? And I'm guessing my estrogen will jump after HCG?

[lacey23]

Personally (and this is probably contrary to a lot of people here), I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to try TRT with no HCG first. Some guys feel fine on a simple straight test, no hcg, no ai, protocol. Then you can always try adding in HCG later (and probably an AI) later, and see if you like it. I think a layered approach to TRT where you add in 1 thing at a time is probably best so you can properly evaluate each individual drug.

How are you feeling on that dose other than libido? Everything else good?

[jamull2852]

Yes energy is great as well as mood. Had slight back acne from the 200mg a week. And also hair growth on my back which sucks lol. No nipples or ball problems. I just don't want to get completely shut down or am I worring for nothing. My LH/FSH numbers are negative !!

[jamull2852]

And when I said no libido I still can get it up with no problems I just don't think about it much and aren't horney all the time. I still get the urge time to time.

[lovbyts]

Ok I've got my results back for being on 100mg once a week.
The test was done hours before my next shot so it's exactly 7 days from last shot to test.

Test- 533
Free Test- 12.9
Estrogen- 29

Is my estrogen ok at this level? I feel like I still don't have a libido.
I'm going talk to my doctor about HCG this week scared of being completely shut down. What kind of dosage should I be taking? 250iu's x2 a week? And I'm guessing my estrogen will jump after HCG?

That looks much better and as we keep preaching, more is not better. I'm still learning this myself...
It also helps if you post up your reference ranges such as fre test 7.2 - 24, Estrogen or Estradiol sensitive 3-70?

It may take a few weeks for your libido to pick back up to where it should be but give it a little time. If it doesn't you may still need to use a little AI.

[lacey23]

Yes energy is great as well as mood. Had slight back acne from the 200mg a week. And also hair growth on my back which sucks lol. No nipples or ball problems. I just don't want to get completely shut down or am I worring for nothing. My LH/FSH numbers are negative !!

LH/FSH is always going to be 0-ish on TRT.

Personally, I think it's a great thing you tried with no HCG/AI first, and were able to be in a good mood/great enegy/ etc... Judging by where your E2 is at, you will probably need an AI if you put HCG into the mix. A lot of guys feel better with HCG+AI combo's. And, I've seen other guys have an impossible time trying to manage HCG+AI. In the latter case just taking 1 drug seems to be better for those individuals than trying to take 3.

I'de try and add HCG, and see how you feel, and where numbers end up. Then probably adding an AI. See how you do on that protocol, and if you feel even better then great. If you don't feel better on it, atleast you always know that 200mg a week will give you great energy, mood, and wood.

[jamull2852]

That looks much better and as we keep preaching, more is not better. I'm still learning this myself...
It also helps if you post up your reference ranges such as fre test 7.2 - 24, Estrogen or Estradiol sensitive 3-70?

It may take a few weeks for your libido to pick back up to where it should be but give it a little time. If it doesn't you may still need to use a little AI.

The nurse told me it was estrogen I forgot what she said the range is but I think 10-40. She mailed me the results so I can post up the ranges in a few days.

[jamull2852]

LH/FSH is always going to be 0-ish on TRT.

Personally, I think it's a great thing you tried with no HCG/AI first, and were able to be in a good mood/great enegy/ etc... Judging by where your E2 is at, you will probably need an AI if you put HCG into the mix. A lot of guys feel better with HCG+AI combo's. And, I've seen other guys have an impossible time trying to manage HCG+AI. In the latter case just taking 1 drug seems to be better for those individuals than trying to take 3.

I'de try and add HCG, and see how you feel, and where numbers end up. Then probably adding an AI. See how you do on that protocol, and if you feel even better then great. If you don't feel better on it, atleast you always know that 200mg a week will give you great energy, mood, and wood.

Doesnt the LH/FSH levels mean your starting to shut down or already shut down? How would you cycle in the HCG into my TRT, 2 times a week at 250iu?

[lacey23]

Doesnt the LH/FSH levels mean your starting to shut down or already shut down? How would you cycle in the HCG into my TRT, 2 times a week at 250iu?

Yeah, you're shut down.

The standard is 250iu's each of the 2 days leading up to your test cyp shot.

[jamull2852]

Yeah, you're shut down.

The standard is 250iu's each of the 2 days leading up to your test cyp shot.

Ok thanks, waiting on my dr. To call back to setup an appointment and discuss it.

[steroid.com 1]

Yeah, you're shut down.

The standard is 250iu's each of the 2 days leading up to your test cyp shot.

There is no standard for an HCG injection protocol only consensus among a few noted TRT Physicians as noted above. The theory here is on once a week IM injections days 6 and 7 are when serum levels are at their lowest and the HCG helps bridge the gap till the next injection and peak serum levels 72 hours after that...common sense sees this as reasonable.

But many of us are now injecting twice weekly or even every 3.5 days so it throws this protocol up in the air if you will.

Crisler likes his guys using a transdermal to inject 100 iu once daily.

My Doc like his guys on Test IM twice weekly to inject 250 iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

The point to remember: HCG is best administered in lower doses more frequently.

For years I used 250 iu EOD with no problems and now on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday protocol just because it's easy to remember

[jamull2852]

There is no standard for an HCG injection protocol only consensus among a few noted TRT Physicians as noted above. The theory here is on once a week IM injections days 6 and 7 are when serum levels are at their lowest and the HCG helps bridge the gap till the next injection and peak serum levels 72 hours after that...common sense sees this as reasonable.

But many of us are now injecting twice weekly or even every 3.5 days so it throws this protocol up in the air if you will.

Crisler likes his guys using a transdermal to inject 100 iu once daily.

My Doc like his guys on Test IM twice weekly to inject 250 iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

The point to remember: HCG is best administered in lower doses more frequently.

For years I used 250 iu EOD with no problems and now on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday protocol just because it's easy to remember

So you do Monday,Wednesday, Friday, how many IU's

[fireeater49]

Dude you have the same story that I am going through. My results are not quite like yours (394 test 10.2 % e2 12) but it is encouraging that someone else is finding the right DR. Going to try new one in week. Good luck!

[steroid.com 1]

So you do Monday,Wednesday, Friday, how many IU's

250 iu's per injection.

Kel and I have been following this protocol for some time with good success and no elevated E2 levels as both of us are not on an AI...but everyone is different.

Again, lower doses more frequently seems to the the ticket for HCG.

[lacey23]

There is no standard for an HCG injection protocol only consensus among a few noted TRT Physicians as noted above. The theory here is on once a week IM injections days 6 and 7 are when serum levels are at their lowest and the HCG helps bridge the gap till the next injection and peak serum levels 72 hours after that...common sense sees this as reasonable.

But many of us are now injecting twice weekly or even every 3.5 days so it throws this protocol up in the air if you will.

Crisler likes his guys using a transdermal to inject 100 iu once daily.

My Doc like his guys on Test IM twice weekly to inject 250 iu Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

The point to remember: HCG is best administered in lower doses more frequently.

For years I used 250 iu EOD with no problems and now on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday protocol just because it's easy to remember

Yeah, you are right. But, since the OP is already injecting e7d, and feeling good, that would probably be the place to start, and standard for an E7d injection protocol.

And, yes I agree that a lot of people shift their protocol's. When I went to Crisler I didn't like his protocol personally. Changed it quite a bit since with better results. It's an individual thing.

I'm suprised you get away with that much HCG though w/ no AI. Personally I'm not a huge fan of HCG.

[steroid.com 1]

Yeah, you are right. But, since the OP is already injecting e7d, and feeling good, that would probably be the place to start, and standard for an E7d injection protocol.

And, yes I agree that a lot of people shift their protocol's. When I went to Crisler I didn't like his protocol personally. Changed it quite a bit since with better results. It's an individual thing.

I'm suprised you get away with that much HCG though w/ no AI. Personally I'm not a huge fan of HCG.

For many men low dosages (<350 iu daily) HCG rarely increases E2...but note I did not say all.

Explain why you are not a fan of HCG?

Did you read the sticky on why men need to have their testicles functioning besides atrophy?

[jamull2852]

Dude you have the same story that I am going through. My results are not quite like yours (394 test 10.2 % e2 12) but it is encouraging that someone else is finding the right DR. Going to try new one in week. Good luck!

Yah it seems like my first doctor is down with everything he just wanted an endo to check me out first. He just gave me a weird impression the first day almost like I just wanted the steroids to bodybuild and that's not the case.

[jamull2852]

So I'm leaning towards getting HCG 2x before my test shot and maybe run that for 4 weeks and get another blood test done. Check my estrogen with the HCG and see what to do from their. Does that sound like a good plan vets?

[lacey23]

For many men low dosages (<350 iu daily) HCG rarely increases E2...but note I did not say all.

Explain why you are not a fan of HCG?

Did you read the sticky on why men need to have their testicles functioning besides atrophy?

I understand the rational behind it, but I've experienced no difference in DHEA, Prog, or Cortisol levels on it vs. off of it. I Can't think of seeing anyone else that noticed an improvement there either, but i suppose it's possible. I still use a very small amount of it to preserve some LH stimulation.

I guess there's a couple reasons I don't like it (and this is personally, I'm not saying it's the case across the board). It can be a messy drug if you are taking a AI. All of a sudden you are dealing with 3 different drugs all with 3 different half lives

Also, I don't really seem to benefit from it. If I take a shot of test cyp or test prop I can 'feel' it. I've never really felt anything off a shot of HCG (unless it drove up E2). It's like injecting water, which seems to result in improved #'s on a page. Maybe this is the reason HCG mono doesn't seem to work even when #'s look good? I don't know.

I don't doubt that it can be beneficial in some guys. But, I think you have to weigh benifits to hassle, and if that ratio isn't good then it may not be worth it in some guys.

I would for sure recommend that everybody atleast try HCG to see if there is an improvement though.

[Rusty11]

Personally (and this is probably contrary to a lot of people here), I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to try TRT with no HCG first. Some guys feel fine on a simple straight test, no hcg, no ai, protocol. Then you can always try adding in HCG later (and probably an AI) later, and see if you like it. I think a layered approach to TRT where you add in 1 thing at a time is probably best so you can properly evaluate each individual drug.

How are you feeling on that dose other than libido? Everything else good?

Good advice. One thing at a time. For me on a gel, I waited nine months before starting hCG. Sure enough, my slight ache went away and I didn't look like a twelve year old...if you know what I mean.

[jamull2852]

That looks much better and as we keep preaching, more is not better. I'm still learning this myself...
It also helps if you post up your reference ranges such as fre test 7.2 - 24, Estrogen or Estradiol sensitive 3-70?

It may take a few weeks for your libido to pick back up to where it should be but give it a little time. If it doesn't you may still need to use a little AI.

Estradiol-29, range is 10-50
Free test-12.8, range is 9.3-26.5
Testosterone-533, range is 195-1138ng/dl

[steroid.com 1]

I understand the rational behind it, but I've experienced no difference in DHEA, Prog, or Cortisol levels on it vs. off of it. I Can't think of seeing anyone else that noticed an improvement there either, but i suppose it's possible. I still use a very small amount of it to preserve some LH stimulation.

I guess there's a couple reasons I don't like it (and this is personally, I'm not saying it's the case across the board). It can be a messy drug if you are taking a AI. All of a sudden you are dealing with 3 different drugs all with 3 different half lives

Also, I don't really seem to benefit from it. If I take a shot of test cyp or test prop I can 'feel' it. I've never really felt anything off a shot of HCG (unless it drove up E2). It's like injecting water, which seems to result in improved #'s on a page. Maybe this is the reason HCG mono doesn't seem to work even when #'s look good? I don't know.

I don't doubt that it can be beneficial in some guys. But, I think you have to weigh benifits to hassle, and if that ratio isn't good then it may not be worth it in some guys.

I would for sure recommend that everybody atleast try HCG to see if there is an improvement though.

I'll tell ya what; if I had a dollar for all the posts here over the years by guys who got started on Testosterone Replacement with no HCG and complained of testicular pain and atrophy I could pay my 5 year old bar tab off LOL

HCG is a proven LH analog and in its absence it can cause many a man issues.

Like I stated in the Sticky, "does a man need HCG?" and answer is simple "No". But for many they must be willing to accept the symptoms of what essentially amounts to a self induced organ shutdown namely the testes.

The testes need to function to support the critical hormone pathways like the mineralcorticoid and glucocortoids.

To each is own I guess.

OT: lacey, I see you've been a member since 2007 and you only have 44 posts. Yet I see that you continue to post here with no increase in count. Have you noticed that and if you want I can have someone look into that for you. Just let me know

[jamull2852]

I'll tell ya what; if I had a dollar for all the posts here over the years by guys who got started on Testosterone Replacement with no HCG and complained of testicular pain and atrophy I could pay my 5 year old bar tab off LOL

HCG is a proven LH analog and in its absence it can cause many a man issues.

Like I stated in the Sticky, "does a man need HCG?" and answer is simple "No". But for many they must be willing to accept the symptoms of what essentially amounts to a self induced organ shutdown namely the testes.

The testes need to function to support the critical hormone pathways like the mineralcorticoid and glucocortoids.

To each is own I guess.

OT: lacey, I see you've been a member since 2007 and you only have 44 posts. Yet I see that you continue to post here with no increase in count. Have you noticed that and if you want I can have someone look into that for you. Just let me know

So with HCG what will it show up on blood test? Will the LH be higher? I guess I'm asking is how can I tell I'm shut down? LH/FSH right?

[lacey23]

I'll tell ya what; if I had a dollar for all the posts here over the years by guys who got started on Testosterone Replacement with no HCG and complained of testicular pain and atrophy I could pay my 5 year old bar tab off LOL

I have no doubt this is the case. And, when I say "I'm not a fan of it", I'm refering to myself, not for all men. I am all for every man trying it. However, I think the benifits need to be assesed in comparison to not using it in each individual case. Some men do better with it, others don't. For example, if a man feels great on test alone for a year and his only complaint is small balls, then puts HCG into his protocal, and fixes the balls, but causes other problems, and has a tough time getting dialed in, then maybe HCG isn't right for that man.

An example would be when a doc put me on HCG mono I had test at the top of the range, and my estradiol was 3x over the top of the range. On test cyp & small amounts of HCG my estradiol is slightly high, but nowhere in the ballpark of what HCG did.

HCG is a proven LH analog and in its absence it can cause many a man issues.

Like I stated in the Sticky, "does a man need HCG?" and answer is simple "No". But for many they must be willing to accept the symptoms of what essentially amounts to a self induced organ shutdown namely the testes.

The testes need to function to support the critical hormone pathways like the mineralcorticoid and glucocortoids.

In all honesty my Prog #'s are at the top of the range, and cortisol #'s have never budged on/off HCG.

However, like I said, I do use a very small amount of HCG to avoid testicular pain, and what not.

OT: lacey, I see you've been a member since 2007 and you only have 44 posts. Yet I see that you continue to post here with no increase in count. Have you noticed that and if you want I can have someone look into that for you. Just let me know

44 posts is probably correct, lol.

I stumbled on here the other day, and noticed I had an account that I must have made 5 years ago.

[lacey23]

So with HCG what will it show up on blood test? Will the LH be higher? I guess I'm asking is how can I tell I'm shut down? LH/FSH right?

No, it wont show up on the blood test. it's an analog of LH, but not structurally the same so won't be measured, but similar enough that it will activate receptors. It's kind of like taking a DHT derivative. You'll get some DHT effects, but it's not going to actually increase DHT in lab test.

You're currently shut down. You can tell because there is no LH/FSH, and you aren't on HCG.

[jamull2852]

No, it wont show up on the blood test. it's an analog of LH, but not structurally the same so won't be measured, but similar enough that it will activate receptors. It's kind of like taking a DHT derivative. You'll get some DHT effects, but it's not going to actually increase DHT in lab test.

You're currently shut down. You can tell because there is no LH/FSH, and you aren't on HCG.

I'm still new to this so sorry for all the questions, but how can I tell if I take HCG and it's working? Nothing will show on the blood test right? My balls have not shrunk at all and I've been on it for months. I'm just wondering if I do get the HCG should I do a follow up blood test in like 4 weeks.

[lacey23]

I'm still new to this so sorry for all the questions, but how can I tell if I take HCG and it's working? Nothing will show on the blood test right? My balls have not shrunk at all and I've been on it for months. I'm just wondering if I do get the HCG should I do a follow up blood test in like 4 weeks.

Most guys balls attrophy to some degree on test alone, and HCG will help go back to normal size. So, that is 1 thing. You may notice improvments in somethings (mood, libido, etc...). You may also notice worse symtoms if it jacks up E2 too high. I'm not sure on the time frame to propery assess HCG after starting it. My Dr. usually waits 8 weeks between tests, but that doesn't really mean anything.

[jamull2852]

Ok thanks alot Lacey. Ill report back when I talk to my dr. And see what we come up with.

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

OK I read all of this and I got my HCG a week ago and my armiDex today I have been injecting HCG since Sun , Tues and today, + ArmiDex today and who knows why throw MT -II in ther and I am back to constant wood all the time ? Now I have HCG that I reconstituted per gdvines sticky and Inject .10 mL EOD on going and the MT-II 2 mg reconstituted a little over 2 mLs and some say it has no libido effect and some say it does I have PT-141on the way I have a fine corp ex that is letting me lay around her house ansd all I have to do is make her smile for about 2 hours a night. been no problem as of late I feel sorry for her when the PT-141 gets here. My problem is I do not think it is better to geve than receive I can;t get a nut ? What is the cause of this I am only on .20 Cyp every 3.5 days and it is like she is begging me to stop and I have not got moine in a week ? what causes thisI used to be a real quick draw ?