Fatsed Cardio vs PWO Cardio - thinking of changing routine to maximize lifts

[MACKATTACK]

I am thinking of changing my cardio routine to maximize my lifts......

I usually do fasted HIIT in the mornings first thing but I notice less energy in the afternoons during my lifts, as suppose when I dont do any cardio and then lift afternoons...



So I am looking do 45 mins of cardio PWO, some fast paced with HIIT mixed in.

Is 45 minutes too much PWO?

Do you think PWO cardio will be as effective as morning fasted cardio considering PWO I am in the fat burning zone to begin with??

[austinite]

45 minutes PWO is not too much at all. It's perfect.

Yes, it's just as effective as fasted. The time of day you do cardio is not relevant whatsoever.

[MACKATTACK]

45 minutes PWO is not too much at all. It's perfect.

Yes, it's just as effective as fasted. The time of day you do cardio is not relevant whatsoever.

Perfect I am going to make the change tomorrow. Now I can get more sleep too!!! Yyyaaayyyyy lol

[CMB]

I do 45 minutes everytime I do cardio, and it is perfect I agree.

Why would anybody do fasted cardio I have no idea...If you're not on cycle while doing fasted cardio you'll lose muscle mass. period. there is no argument here.

[M302_Imola]

I wouldn't totally get away from doing morning fasted cardio, instead I would use a mixed approach...some days morn fasted cardio and some days pwo cardio. IMO, pwo cardio with a duration of 45 mins isn't a problem if one is doing LISS (low intensity steady state), however I wouldn't start throwing HIIT cardio into the equation when muscle glycogen levels are depleted. You're setting yourself up to burn some muscle IMO. LISS is perfect in the glycogen depleted state but with HIIT I like to have some glycogen in the system. Anyhow, take it for what's its worth but this is what works for me and most the people I train.

[Live for the PUMP]

I wouldn't totally get away from doing morning fasted cardio, instead I would use a mixed approach...some days morn fasted cardio and some days pwo cardio. IMO, pwo cardio with a duration of 45 mins isn't a problem if one is doing LISS (low intensity steady state), however I wouldn't start throwing HIIT cardio into the equation when muscle glycogen levels are depleted. You're setting yourself up to burn some muscle IMO. LISS is perfect in the glycogen depleted state but with HIIT I like to have some glycogen in the system. Anyhow, take it for what's its worth but this is what works for me and most the people I train.

^This^

If you want to do HIIT after workout I would suggest no more than 20 mins MAX! Otherwise you will likely be burning muscle. For optimum results switch it up.. 15-20 mins HIIT for a week PWO. Then 30-45 mins steady state fat burning range for a week. Fasted cardio is a great way to go also as long as you stay at fat burning range or slightly above and don't exceed 30-45 mins. Always do cardio when glycogen levels are depleted for best results. ie PWO or first thing in the morning.

[oatmeal69]

I was doing fasted cardio for a long time. I'm starting to think more along the lines of what austinite says. It doesn't matter when you do it, or if it's fasted or not. It's about how many calories you take in, vs. what you burn off each day, period.
The last 6 months I've been doing 30 min interval cardio, PWO. I'm on cycle now and seem to be leaning up even while adding mass.

[baseline_9]

I do 45 minutes everytime I do cardio, and it is perfect I agree.

Why would anybody do fasted cardio I have no idea...If you're not on cycle while doing fasted cardio you'll lose muscle mass. period. there is no argument here.

Well there is an argument here.....

My argument would be that your claim is false and based on nothing.....

Explain how if the primary source of fuel for LISS cardio is fatty acids we will be burning Muscle if we do cardio fasted.....

If I was eating 10,000 calories a day would I still be burning LBM if I was doing cardio fasted.....


We need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to cardio..... Too many people over think the whole thing....

[M302_Imola]

I do 45 minutes everytime I do cardio, and it is perfect I agree.

Why would anybody do fasted cardio I have no idea...If you're not on cycle while doing fasted cardio you'll lose muscle mass. period. there is no argument here.

Wow, don't know what to say here other than you're just plain wrong...to many variables to factor in here so you're closed minded thought process foolish to say the least. Have you tried fasted cardio? Did you lose muscle? If you did, you did something wrong.

If you want to do HIIT after workout I would suggest no more than 20 mins MAX! Otherwise you will likely be burning muscle. For optimum results switch it up.. 15-20 mins HIIT for a week PWO. Then 30-45 mins steady state fat burning range for a week. Fasted cardio is a great way to go also as long as you stay at fat burning range or slightly above and don't exceed 30-45 mins. Always do LISS cardio when glycogen levels are depleted for best results. ie PWO or first thing in the morning.

I agree with you here but needed to edit (see bold) one thing in your post.

I was doing fasted cardio for a long time. I'm starting to think more along the lines of what austinite says. It doesn't matter when you do it, or if it's fasted or not. It's about how many calories you take in, vs. what you burn off each day, period.
The last 6 months I've been doing 30 min interval cardio, PWO. I'm on cycle now and seem to be leaning up even while adding mass.

When doing LISS cardio it most certainly does matter when you perform it, if fatloss (while sparring muscle tissue) is the main goal. You're body needs to be glycogen depleted to receive the maximum benefit (fatloss). Look at it this way, time is money...so why would you waste your time performing LISS when glycogen levels are full or partially full? If you're like me you never have enough time in the day so this is a simple decision for me.

[oatmeal69]

When doing LISS cardio it most certainly does matter when you perform it, if fatloss (while sparring muscle tissue) is the main goal. You're body needs to be glycogen depleted to receive the maximum benefit (fatloss). Look at it this way, time is money...so why would you waste your time performing LISS when glycogen levels are full or partially full? If you're like me you never have enough time in the day so this is a simple decision for me.

Well, by that token, would you say that glycogen levels are depleted PWO? Or do you think there's more bang for buck after sleeping 8 hours, etc.?

[Live for the PUMP]

Well, by that token, would you say that glycogen levels are depleted PWO? Or do you think there's more bang for buck after sleeping 8 hours, etc.?

Glycogen levels get depleted after a workout. How much depends on intensity and duration. None the less they are depleted to a point where cardio is MUCH more beneficial. The reason is because now your body must rely on adipose tissue (fat) for its energy. Thus burning fat. Yes the morning is the most beneficial time to do cardio. Your body will burn 300% more fat this way. Why burn off food that you ate when you can burn off stored fat in your body?? No-brainer to me.

[oatmeal69]

Glycogen levels get depleted after a workout. How much depends on intensity and duration. None the less they are depleted to a point where cardio is MUCH more beneficial. The reason is because now your body must rely on adipose tissue (fat) for its energy. Thus burning fat. Yes the morning is the most beneficial time to do cardio. Your body will burn 300% more fat this way. Why burn off food that you ate when you can burn off stored fat in your body?? No-brainer to me.

I hear you, everything you say makes sense. I've found though as a skinny-fat lil' runt, I can only diet/cardio so much before my genes take over an cause me to lose muscle and keep fat. I've been talking with GBrice about it a lot lately, I'm starting to think that for guys like me, we just have to keep eating and make up for it with lots of cardio. - Keep the furnace stoked and burning white-hot. Otherwise we get into the catabolic state much more easily than others.
P.S., great arms/shoulders man, I hope to have half of that someday!

[cj111]

I've done both.
I like the feeling after fasted cardio in the morning, like you're ready for the day! Its a weird feeling...
I also like doing 40 min PWO,

Bottom line who cares when you do it, as long as you're making the effort to consistantly do something!
As far as burning muscle while doing cardio fasted, never happened to me. I believe the whole catabolism thing is really over played

[Live for the PUMP]

I hear you, everything you say makes sense. I've found though as a skinny-fat lil' runt, I can only diet/cardio so much before my genes take over an cause me to lose muscle and keep fat. I've been talking with GBrice about it a lot lately, I'm starting to think that for guys like me, we just have to keep eating and make up for it with lots of cardio. - Keep the furnace stoked and burning white-hot. Otherwise we get into the catabolic state much more easily than others.
P.S., great arms/shoulders man, I hope to have half of that someday!

Your right body type does play a big role. In your circumstance I don't know that I would even do much cardio. Or like you said keep fuel in the tank when you do it. That's good your talking to GBrice. That guy knows his stuff so pick his brain. Thanks for the compliment bro!

[Live for the PUMP]

I've done both.
I like the feeling after fasted cardio in the morning, like you're ready for the day! Its a weird feeling...
I also like doing 40 min PWO,

Bottom line who cares when you do it, as long as you're making the effort to consistantly do something!
As far as burning muscle while doing cardio fasted, never happened to me. I believe the whole catabolism thing is really over played

Absolutely!

[M302_Imola]

Well, by that token, would you say that glycogen levels are depleted PWO? Or do you think there's more bang for buck after sleeping 8 hours, etc.?

I like what you did there with the word "token" since my post referred to time being money...nicely done Live for the PUMP had a nice reply to your question. Whether glycogen levels are lower when you wake up in the morn (after 8 hrs. sleep) or after an intense workout (intensity will vary) is a good question but I'm not sure we can answer it. I would dare to say glycogen levels are lower in the morn upon waking since the body has been at idle for 8 hrs. and blood glucose levels should also be the lowest at this time. None-the-less both fasted cardio and pwo cardio are beneficial from a fatloss standpoint. If I had to choose (and my work schedule didn't interfere then I would choose fasted morn cardio.

Glycogen levels get depleted after a workout. How much depends on intensity and duration. None the less they are depleted to a point where cardio is MUCH more beneficial. The reason is because now your body must rely on adipose tissue (fat) for its energy. Thus burning fat. Yes the morning is the most beneficial time to do cardio. Your body will burn 300% more fat this way. Why burn off food that you ate when you can burn off stored fat in your body?? No-brainer to me.

Nice reply!

I hear you, everything you say makes sense. I've found though as a skinny-fat lil' runt, I can only diet/cardio so much before my genes take over an cause me to lose muscle and keep fat. I've been talking with GBrice about it a lot lately, I'm starting to think that for guys like me, we just have to keep eating and make up for it with lots of cardio. - Keep the furnace stoked and burning white-hot. Otherwise we get into the catabolic state much more easily than others.
P.S., great arms/shoulders man, I hope to have half of that someday!

You're correct in that there are a lot of different body types so what works for one might not work for another. Do you use peptides (GHRP/GHRH)? If not, you should be! They are exceptionally good at helping you stay anti catabolic during cardio and at other points in the day...not to mention they essentially speed up your metabolism where you can feed the muscle tissue more nutrients while staying just as lean if not leaner. Example, my maintenance cals use to be right around 3000 when I was around 195 @12% bf...since I've been on peps I've raised my maintenance cals to between 3300-3500 while now weighing 200 lbs. @ 10% bf. Now granted my fatloss strategy and training has been enhanced by me gaining knowledge in this area and also knowing my body. GHRP/GHRH can be a big help at helping shed fat (while staying anti catabolic) when pinned before fasted morn cardio or pwo cardio. Here's my typical plan before fasted cardio: wake up and pin peps at 4:30 am then roll over and go back to bed until 5:30am, then I get ready and head to the treadmill at the gym, I do 30-40 mins LISS cardio (HR around 130 BPM), which is normally a 10% incline at 3.5 mph. The peps help release ffa (fatty acids) into the blood stream (which normally takes 1-1.5 hrs. after your shot for peak release) and then the LISS cardio burns off these fatty acids thus eventually leading to a leaner physique while HOPEFULLY holding on to lean muscle tissue. If one desires to burn even more ffa's then staying fasted a couple hrs. after your cardio can help in this regard. Anyhow, this has worked for me and I thought it might be a help to some.

I've done both.
I like the feeling after fasted cardio in the morning, like you're ready for the day! Its a weird feeling...
I also like doing 40 min PWO,

You're right, after morn fasted cardio I typically get this euphoric feeling...love this feeling!

[baseline_9]

Glycogen levels get depleted after a workout. How much depends on intensity and duration. None the less they are depleted to a point where cardio is MUCH more beneficial. The reason is because now your body must rely on adipose tissue (fat) for its energy. Thus burning fat. Yes the morning is the most beneficial time to do cardio. Your body will burn 300% more fat this way. Why burn off food that you ate when you can burn off stored fat in your body?? No-brainer to me.

Yet another case of missing the bigger picture.....

To many false statements and assumptions in this reply to even begin.....


I reccomended you research metabolism as a whole rather than just the acute effects of a cardio session that is burning fatty acids....

[Lunk1]

The effects of cardio are cumulative...when it's done makes very little difference.

[oatmeal69]

I'm not making ANY statement of fact, just my own empirical observation. Which is that I haven't noticed that I burn off more fat when I do cardio fasted. LAst cycle, it is all I did. Morning cardio on an empty stomach / water only. With my current cycle, it's PWO. Gonna wait until the end of my cycle and get off creatine to see what's water and what isn't, but I'm feeling kinda lean anyway. I'm guessing I'm at about 13% right now.

[Live for the PUMP]

Yet another case of missing the bigger picture.....

To many false statements and assumptions in this reply to even begin.....


I reccomended you research metabolism as a whole rather than just the acute effects of a cardio session that is burning fatty acids....

I'm not sure what you don't agree with here...?? These are not my opinions. These are facts based on personal training books.

[Live for the PUMP]

I like what you did there with the word "token" since my post referred to time being money...nicely done Live for the PUMP had a nice reply to your question. Whether glycogen levels are lower when you wake up in the morn (after 8 hrs. sleep) or after an intense workout (intensity will vary) is a good question but I'm not sure we can answer it. I would dare to say glycogen levels are lower in the morn upon waking since the body has been at idle for 8 hrs. and blood glucose levels should also be the lowest at this time. None-the-less both fasted cardio and pwo cardio are beneficial from a fatloss standpoint. If I had to choose (and my work schedule didn't interfere then I would choose fasted morn cardio.



Nice reply!

Thanks!

[Lunk1]

This article in the thread I started summed it up for me nicely.

http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...-thoughts.html

[baseline_9]

Glycogen levels get depleted after a workout yes, slightly.... How much depends on intensity and durationYep.... None the less they are depleted to a point where cardio is MUCH more beneficial Really? Based on what? And what do you mean by 'much more beneficial'.... I could argue that cardio performance will be impaired thus reducing overall caloric output which will in turn yield less weight loss.... The reason is because now your body must rely on adipose tissue (fat) for its energyThe body relies primarily on fatty acids as substrate for low intensity cardio anyway..... Thus burning fat. Yes the morning is the most beneficial time to do cardioBig statement here..... Kind of a black and white statement.... Beneficial for what? Based on what? . Your body will burn 300% more fat this way 300%.... Now that sounds like a nice round convincing number..... Does this take into account metabolism as a whole and the overall daily trends as far as fat loss is concerned.... No it doesn't...... Why burn off food that you ate when you can burn off stored fat in your body??Burning Glycogen and or free glucose as a substrate would indicate a higher intensity of cardio.... Which would cause a larger energy burn.... And the overall effects will create a greater energy deficit which in turn will result in greater overall Bodyfat loss.... No-brainer to me.

I'm not sure what you don't agree with here...?? These are not my opinions. These are facts based on personal training books.

My problem is that we can't make black and white statements.... There are too many variables to take into consideration to simply say that one thing is best......

Out of interest what books? And are these facts backed on relevant studies (ie. ones that look into long term trends rather than acute results)....

[austinite]

This thread lasted longer than I thought . There is no evidence that what's in your stomach and/or what time you cardio has lesser or greater effect on fat loss. I'd love to see any studies.

[FONZY007]

^This^

If you want to do HIIT after workout I would suggest no more than 20 mins MAX! Otherwise you will likely be burning muscle. For optimum results switch it up.. 15-20 mins HIIT for a week PWO. Then 30-45 mins steady state fat burning range for a week. Fasted cardio is a great way to go also as long as you stay at fat burning range or slightly above and don't exceed 30-45 mins. Always do cardio when glycogen levels are depleted for best results. ie PWO or first thing in the morning.

I do cardio PWO 10-20 mins Max and the weight is dropping off

[CMB]

I love how just because some members here have thousands of posts means they MUST be correct.

Your argument is that if I wake up after 8 hours of sleep and no food, and go for a 45 minutes run, I won't lose an ounce of muscle.

bull$#it.

[CMB]

Hey everyone, lets go run around at 6am like a bunch of starving zombies. good idea right?

[CMB]

Lastly, I know there are MANY variables when it comes to losing muscle. Too many to count. However, when you burn calories, without consuming calories beforehand, then you will go into a CATABOLIC mode. For those couple vets who shot down my statement as false, google catabolic and the definition. It goes hand in hand with fasted cardio.

Not trying to flame here, but everyone has their own opinion. We can't know certainly who is right but we can make educated guesses from experience and sports medicine.

A few last words: Fitness is NOT an exact science. So keep that in mind next time you say something is completely false.

[MajorPectorial]

Im just going into 2hour intense weight workouts into half hour recoup including ashake and then into (3 times a week) either hiit 30minsinc warmup n stretch outs (w+s)/circuit training 45mins inc w+s/ab attack 30 mins inc w+s
I think these questions will foremost be different for everyone.
Personally im too scared at losing any muscle mass to go hour plus on cardio or do it without something to assist my routine and ensure im always topped up (atleast a bit), the shake ensures i dont feel toooooooo heavy prior to the hiit style training methods i use in all three excercises. I was gunna post to ask if anyone else has found training routines that assisted them with burning a lil fat but still gain good mass. But im sure ppl are full of fantastic ideas. So ill keep nosin around.
Great thread!

Edit. I gym atleast 5*week withoutfail.
Used to do 2-4 hours dependent if i hit oneof those days i simply dont think ive hit hard enough. N go back for more. Or have a meal or another group who wanna train. Before this week i only did my 20mins b4 and after weight training on step machine rotating on only**glutes/calves/quads. Taken a while to master!

[FONZY007]

I love how just because some members here have thousands of posts means they MUST be correct.

Your argument is that if I wake up after 8 hours of sleep and no food, and go for a 45 minutes run, I won't lose an ounce of muscle.

bull$#it.

Shit my last meal is at 6-7pm I wake up go to gym do HIT and then cardio getting leaner and put 1/2 inch on my arms

[CMB]

Shit my last meal is at 6-7pm I wake up go to gym do HIT and then cardio getting leaner and put 1/2 inch on my arms

Good progress! It is still possible to gain muscle while doing fasted cardio if your diet has a sufficient amount of calories.

Did you do HIT fasted?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Lastly, I know there are MANY variables when it comes to losing muscle. Too many to count. However, when you burn calories, without consuming calories beforehand, then you will go into a CATABOLIC mode. For those couple vets who shot down my statement as false, google catabolic and the definition. It goes hand in hand with fasted cardio.

Not trying to flame here, but everyone has their own opinion. We can't know certainly who is right but we can make educated guesses from experience and sports medicine.

A few last words: Fitness is NOT an exact science. So keep that in mind next time you say something is completely false.

Ok I will keep that in mind but your statement is still completely false.

You need to read up on the difference between blood glucose levels and stored glycogen. How much glycogen do you think is stored in muscle tissue and the liver? Do you really think someone eating a "normal" type diet can deplete their glucose levels during 8 hours of sleep which slows metabolism to nearly zilch?

Your view of how the body processes and partitions calories/nutrients is narrow minded at best.

My post count is much lower than the 2 other vets so I'm sure that makes me more credible.

[FONZY007]

Good progress! It is still possible to gain muscle while doing fasted cardio if your diet has a sufficient amount of calories.

Did you do HIT fasted?

Yes, cuz I'm on the thicker side lol, but once I'm where I want to be i most likely will change it

[Live for the PUMP]

My problem is that we can't make black and white statements.... There are too many variables to take into consideration to simply say that one thing is best......

Out of interest what books? And are these facts backed on relevant studies (ie. ones that look into long term trends rather than acute results)....

Ok. I respect your position here as a vet. No doubt you are highly knowledgeable. I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. I will say that every sentence I posted I believe to be true to 100%. My knowledge is based off of over 12 yrs training, trial and error, experience, and a stack of books to say the least.

I am not saying you don't have an argument or you are wrong. There is lots of contradicting publications out there. I live, eat, breath, and teach the information I provide and it works for me and the people I help just as I expect it too.

When I do cardio fasted first thing in the morning my glycogen levels are depleted (stored carbohydrates). Therefore my body will go straight to its fat stores for energy, thus burning fat. The only other time my glycogen stores are depleted is right after a workout. Therefore when I do cardio as soon as I get my heart rate at the target zone I am burning stored fat vs. burning carbs i ate. Why you ask? Sorry brother but I am no science major. I know this and it works for me is all I can say. Do you need to be cautious not to burn muscle? Absolutely! Fasted cardio in the morning I wouldn't do over 30 minutes and I would stay in fat burning zone (NOT CARDIO zone) After workout I would say 45 mins at an absolute max again in fat burning zone. Personally I wouldn't do over 30 mins. Also HIIT is good for a max of 15-20 mins.

You wanted to know the books I get my info from..
-American Counsel of Exercise (ACE)
-It is a stack of various personal training books
-The Body Sculpting Bible for Men (by James Villepigue and Hugo Rivera)
-Also where I got the 300% factor

respect bro

[Live for the PUMP]

I do cardio PWO 10-20 mins Max and the weight is dropping off

As it should bro! Keep it up!

[Sgt. Hartman]

Why do you think your glycogen stores are being depleted are you eating a keto or carb depletion type diet? If not then your glycogen stores are not getting depleted from whatever fasted or post WO cardio you're doing.

Iirc the average human stores over 200g glycogen in the liver and 400g in muscle tissue so much more for someone who has higher than average LBM. That's 2400cals of glycogen that's stored ready to burn even when fasted. You're not depleting your glycogen stores from 1 fasted cardio session bro.

[Live for the PUMP]

Why do you think your glycogen stores are being depleted are you eating a keto or carb depletion type diet? If not then your glycogen stores are not getting depleted from whatever fasted or post WO cardio you're doing.

Iirc the average human stores over 200g glycogen in the liver and 400g in muscle tissue so much more for someone who has higher than average LBM. That's 2400cals of glycogen that's stored ready to burn even when fasted. You're not depleting your glycogen stores from 1 fasted cardio session bro.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers from.. I have never heard of 200g in the liver. Maybe 100g. Also these are maximum numbers you are presenting right? Unless someone is eating 800 carbs a day they are not going to be anywhere near this.

How Long Does Glucose Last When Working Out? | LIVESTRONG.COM

[Sgt. Hartman]

I was going off of memory but according to your link humans store 100g (400cal) in the liver and 400g (1600cal) in muscle for 2000cal total.

Must be some sick cardio sessions to burn that many cals to deplete glycogen. Not to mention your body never burns exclusively glucose, even at high hr it's still burning a mixture of fatty acids and glucose albeit more glucose as hr rises.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Your link says an average 150lb man (lmfao ) stores 1800cal glycogen. Your body will use the mist efficient fuel source available......period. With glycogen available it will not canabilize muscle tissue to any great extent. Look into gluconeogenesis and how inefficient it is at converting muscle tissue to glucose, it would only happen in extreme situations.

People who are losing muscle tissue and blaming it on cardio are simply not eating enough.

[Live for the PUMP]

I was going off of memory but according to your link humans store 100g (400cal) in the liver and 400g (1600cal) in muscle for 2000cal total.

Must be some sick cardio sessions to burn that many cals to deplete glycogen. Not to mention your body never burns exclusively glucose, even at high hr it's still burning a mixture of fatty acids and glucose albeit more glucose as hr rises.

Again these numbers are maximums. An athlete or bodybuilder or almost anyone who is on even remotely what is considered a diet isn't going to have their glycogen stores topped off. Your assuming glycogen stores are topped off at these numbers.
Even so when you do cardio at lower intensity (fat burning zone) you burn more calories from fat. A higher intensity cardio session burns more calories from carbs. However higher intensity cardio burns more overall calories, which is more important.