Last post and last log (no test cycle)

[yannick35]

This will be my last log and post for this forum, i was asked to do a log and i guess it might help a few people, namely people who with testosterone added to there cycle gain fat and water like i did last time.

Please note that i am not going to reply to any question, i am just going to update the log has i go by.

For you who know me, know i don't lie, i post real pics of myself, and i wont take credit for someone else finding.

Soon to be 41 i am struggling right now to lose weight, at 5 feet 10 i am around 230 pounds, in the gym and growing stronger after an 11 year layoff due to injury and many many many failed attempts at coming back.

Backround: started training in basement at 13, joined first gym at 16, trained until injury at 29.

I have also competed in various contact sports karate, tae kwon do and boxing.

Started rehab training back in January 2013 and am in the gym at least 3-5 times per week.

Prolotherapy treatment is blasting right now sodium morruhate 9% salin water, xylocaine 1% and vitamin B-12, yes xylocaine as been added due to way to much discomfort from the salin.

Upper back D3D4 solid no more cracking, even when doing incline press with 70 pounds db, this for me is amazing because i never tough i would be able to hit this again 6 reps done this morning.

I have been declared invalid by 2 of the best chronic pain specialist and told i would never lift weights again that was 2 years ago. I have filled a complain against both of them and they are under investigation by the board of medicine.

Mai 18th 2013 i started anavar oxandrol at 20mg per week, i have readjusted the dosage this week to 30mg.

results from var are similar then what i got from creatine but with less bloating very mild steroid.

I have added winstol V injection last week June 4th taking 150mg per week i did my 4th injection this morning, sub Q, last week i drank it once in water and it was really not that bad no heart burn nothing just that awful taste HA.

So far Win is far more potent then var, that pumps have been insane this morning i guess it takes about a week and since you inject often its gets into the system fast.

Since last week major changes in diet, i have added tones of veggies and fruits. Fruits are added in the morning and veggies eaten all day.

I read a lot of vegan books and decided to make the switch to semi vegan, i will not eat beans, but replace with horse meat twice a week chicken and eggs, i also believe in keeping coconut oil in the diet for saturated fats and cholesterol production = natural testosterone.

After training i got my prolotherapy treatment and we tested my testosterone level via saliva test, score of 670, it went down a bit since last time i was at 700 but nothing to be alarming because the time before that i was at 640, both other times have been blood tested. Last time estradiol was at 24, i will get it tested soon i guess the best range is 18.

I have not yet received my tren ace i will get it next week so it will be a 7 week tren ace at 150mg per week, i will run the whole 30ML winstrol bottle for 10 weeks with the rest of the var.

Winstrol produces stronger ligaments but they are more brittle, using small dose of anavar will help to get the collagen matrix build up so i guess even if anavar is small dose it will help in some way.

Remember i am still under prolo treatments so all the collagen synthesis i can get i will take.

Over the past 2 years i have been eating so much red meat i guess its time for a change, i train in the morning around 6am or 8am depending on when i work night time. I am always fasted and train on an empty stomach. When i get home i make myself a fruit smoothy 250ml of 100% fruit juice frozen fruits, 2 piece of banana and some protein powder.

I am still working out the rest of the diet, i still eat 9 grain bread egg sandwish and will keep the horse meat twice a week.

My total protein intake per day will be between 60-80g no more.

Now this last log will be controversial at best, there is no testosterone, its not about eating 200g of protein a day, and since i am allergic to all form of whey and dairy and whole wheat then none of this will be in it.

I will eat the 4-5 small meals per day.

My experience with fasting was fun but i feel that its not very good for me to incorporate intermittent fasting in my diet.

Important note: we are all different, there is no one size fit all, and the sooner people will understand this the better it will be for everyone.

Not everyone reacts the same way to testosterone, high protein diet, and various foods.

So people will do amazing on a low carb diet, some people will adapt to ketosis and feel amazing, others like me will get passed the 6 week window and never adapt.

Some people will do better on a high carb low fat diet.

My goals are simple, i never had anything to hide i am not going to start now. On my avatar its me in Mexico last year 242 pounds of massive fatness. I hated myself but at some point when you cannot train you sort of let go.

I made a promise to my girlfriend who is an ex figure skater and now zumba and salsa dancer and trainer, she has on hell of a body for a 35 year old women.

I promised her that has soon has i could get back into the gym i would change my physique, remove that ugly cellulite i have on the butt yes i got that, but since losing some fat its almost all gone YEAH.

Lose the ugly gut and love handles which are now a lot smaller, and get back some lost muscle maturity.

At a bodyweight of 230 pounds i don't need to add anymore, in a perfect world i would love to lose 30 pounds and go from there.

I decided to use steroids first because the deal i got on them i could not pass, plus var win and tren will help me shed some fat, i also spoke to a few that told me tren cuts appetite even better.

I cannot do cardio a part from walking that i plan on doing an hour a day.

Maybe in September i will be able to do more.

So far so good.

[AD]

yannick, i know you wont be answering questions. but i just want to point out that you may not be having that condition that BBJT talked about: Aromatase Excess Syndrome. you cant be having totalT of 600+ with estro 20+ if you have that condition.

[yannick35]

Personal note on side effects:

Var i broke out first two weeks a bit of acne on my face weird for a 40 year old teenager hahahaha. Acne is gone.

Win so far no acne but i do have spasm in the lower back, calves lock and hurt silly at times and hands too. Not related to water intake cause i do drink a full gallon each day.

I was thinking of adding clenbuterol but i decided not too, after all too much of a good thing, i guess that ever since i turned 30 my body does not respond to stimulant like it used too, from 23-30 i did abuse ephedrine fat burners, thoses where to good old days, dymatadrine xtreme and rip fuel i miss you sooo much. I also do not want to use T3 anymore this stuff is very potent and will burn you up, fat muscles and all its very catabolic. I am also afraid of scewing up my natural production of T3, the last thing i need is a slow acting thyroid at my age and climb up to 300 pounds.

I am looking at the older men in the sauna and most say that i am very afraid of looking like some of them has i get older, most 50-60 year old have terrible gut its like the point of no return, still most of them only do light cardio and never lift a weight or do a machine, and most of them only swim like turtles in a big lake. I also speak to them and what i found out is that there diets are really crappy most of them eat a lot and drink a lot of alcohol.

I was training at that gym 11 years ago and saw most of them who are still there and they all got from fat to a lot fatter.

I feel that has i grow older if i can stay lean and not look like this everything will be fine.

I still have my home gym and i guess that going back to the real gym was out of boredom, still next year i will continue training in my basement and save money.

I found a hammer squat machine and can do 3 sets of 20 reps no pressure at all in the lower and upper back fantastic, i did not stop the squats, i usually did them body weight or prison squats at the end of my workout.

[yannick35]

These small cycles are very popular in europe and i have to agree with the article.

Drug Plan

Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clomid, except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.


Day 1: 100 mg trenbolone in morning. 50mg Winstrol .Clomid: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5

mg six and then twelve hours later.

Days 3-11: 50 mg Trendbolone/day, 250 mg Clomid as above, and 50mg Winstrol as above.

Days 12-14: No Trendbolone, 50mg Winstrol.

Weeks 3 and 4 and 5: 50mg Winstrol. Clomid ½ tab on arising, and oxandradrol 20 mg on arising.

Week 6: Clean, unless Testosterone was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which

case Clomid use will be continued in week 6.

[yannick35]

While still a natural, I began to examine how an entire philosophy of AAS use might be developed, based upon the European experience. By the time it was appropriate for me to begin AAS, years later, I already had a plan. Initially, I quietly used myself as a lab rat. The results became quite visible, and, before too long, questions followed. My trainer asked that we work together, to develop a new way for his athletes to grow. And here we are.....

Characteristics of AAS:
There are two clearly discernable characteristics of interest to BBers. Anabolic: muscle growth/hypertrophy. and Androgenic: strength, aggression, fat burning. Most AAS possess these two characteristics in varying ratios, and in various strengths. For example, Halotestin may be seen to produce a pure androgenic response, but no anabolic response. Deca, on the other hand, will produce anabolism with no significant androgenic response. Test produces roughly a 50 percent anabolic response, and 50 percent androgenic response. Then there is strength of response. Winstrol is a moderate, pure anabolic. Anavar is a moderate, pure androgen. Trenbolone is a very powerful androgen (80 percent of total response), much more powerful than the androgenic characteristics of test. Tren's anabolic characteristic (20 percent of total response), is weaker than that of test. And so on. I have built a complete table of response characteristics of all the AAS components we use.

The Oxford English dictionary defines the term somatotype as the "The physique of an individual as expressed numerically in terms of the extent to which it exhibits the characteristics of each of three extremes (the endomorph, mesomorph, and ectomorph)." So for example, a person exhibiting extreme mesomorphy might be assigned the numerical ****tail of 2-7-1. What does this mean?

Cycle design:
Cycles are assembled by, first, determining the end response characteristics desired, and assembling components whose AAS characteristics interlock together to produce that end response with a minimum of overlap, over the cycle time span desired. Consider this cycle: Nandrolone phenylpropionate (EOD), tren (EOD), Winstrol (ED), optional Anavar (ED). I've remarked, elsewhere, on the desirability of pairing tren with Winstrol. We require the use of a pure androgen for EVERY cycle, to insure ongoing muscle definition, density, and post cycle androgenicity, so Anavar is our choice for this cycle. Here, Tren is our primary androgen, and nandrolone our primary anabolic. All of these agents are selected for their lack of water retention. All are either short acting or esterless, so that meets our requirements for site injection. And, yes, we do site inject it all. We begin by frontloading the estered injectables, up to three days before cycle day zero, and add the orals and esterless injectables at cycle day minus one. On cycle day zero, the AAS is already active, with blood levels increasing. We end the injectables and orals, suitably in advance of the end of the cycle, so that, on cycle day 15, the AAS is non-inhibitory, and HTPA recovery begins immediately. Add on 14 days further system recovery, and then a cycle can begin anew. Seven weeks, total. Over a year, this might be accomplished seven times. When HCG, and an anti-e at suitable dosage, is added to the Clomid, the HTPA may be recovered in only 2 weeks. This shortens the next cycle availability point by one week.

Yes, it's a lot of injections. And the Winstrol hurts.

What might be expected, in the way of results? Bulking, we have seen as much as 10 pounds lbm. Average is five pounds. Over a year, that's 35 pounds. You say, "Hell, I can grow that much in 8 weeks". I say, let's see how many times a year you can accomplish that, and over how many years do you think you will continue to accomplish that? We have this steady, measured growing, going on and on. My guess is that this approach, using only a modest bulking diet, rather than the typical American pig-out bulking diet, can be accomplished for years and years. Due to short cycle length and rational diet design, there is very little fat gain. No pressing need to cut. No need to look like the typical big, smooth BBer, who only looks cut once a year. Our people are lean, defined, and feel healthy, all the time. They only spend two weeks cycling, while seven (or six), clean. And, since they get normalized quickly, they can train and grow natural, more quickly, because there is none of the weeks and weeks of getting that slow AAS out of their systems. The BBer doing the typical 8 week long acting ester cycle exists for weeks in a kind of limbo, where the blood levels are not high enough for anabolism, but are still inhibitory, and he must wait all that extra time. My people are off, longer than they are on. Their bodies free of drugs, all that time.

Short cycles part 2


We tend to avoid test. Not completely; just most of the time. What we found is that, anytime you use test, it magnifies the sides of whatever you use with it. Tren, used in rational dosages, is relatively free of sides, and causes fewer overall sides during cycles. We use tren, like the typical BBer uses test. With tren, you get much more response, with much lower dosages, with greater androgenic intensity. Someone once wrote that tren was "the gear of the gods". Indeed, the Europeans brought to BBing AAS, a very great gift. We do use test, but only for very specialized purposes.



MY COMMENTS

I think that 4 weekers provide the best gains to sides ratio...this has been my personal experience with myself and my clients. Two weekers, properly done, can produce fairly decent gains if doing many in a row, especially 2 "on" 2 "off".

Note...the very good testosterone level that this fellow in the study showed two weeks after ending the two week cycle has a lot to due with the andriol that he was on at this time.....so with this in mind we cannot draw accurate conclusion in regard to HPTA recovery from this study. We can, however, notice "Jim's" really nice gains in weight and strength during this cycle.....and the guy didn't even do any heavy leg work like squats or leg presses!

My clients routinely KEEP 5-10 pounds after a well thought out two weeker, if they are not yet at their natural maximum level of muscular developement. This can take many men, that have trained for a few years, up to a year to accomplish without steroids.
If you are above natural max the gains will be less but you will still gain.

Keep in mind why short cycles of 6 weeks or less are done...they are NOT done to win titles as a bodybuilder at any level ,but rather to provide for a very safe alternative way to use steroids by limiting time "on" and thus by limiting sides.

If you are wanting to try short cycles then keep in mind that they will only help to get you to your natural max sooner than via training naturally....much sooner in fact....BUT they will not get you huge. You can get somewhat above natural max but don't expect to win titles even at the state level using roids in this way.


The blood test results were good. Jim started with normal values for testosterone, estradiol, all hepatic function tests, and blood lipid profile. Immediately after the two week point, he had a follow-up test. Everything remained normal except for his blood testosterone, which had dropped from 429 ng/dL to 50 ng/dL (normal range is 240-830 ng/dL), and AST, ALT, and CPK values were elevated – however, this was to be expected and is not harmful, except that of course we would not wish the testosterone level to remain so low but to return to normal quickly. The Clomid and reduction of androgen use to a very light level should allow this to occur, and in fact, Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4.

Estrogen levels remained normal, but were elevated compared to the starting value: from 24.6 pg/mL to 41 pg/mL (normal range: 0-56 pg/mL). This change is of questionable significance: it might be due to difference in measurement, not to any actual increase, or it might represent a small increase from the usage of Dianabol, despite the use of Cytadren as an antiaromatase.

Cholesterol values did not change substantially, and some parameters were even improved. I attribute this to the use of Clomid, which exerts an estrogenic (not anti-estrogenic) effect with regard to blood cholesterol that is beneficial. (Clomid is anti-estrogenic in some tissues, and estrogenic in others.)

Total cholesterol was reduced from 170 to 162, triglycerides from 128 to 104, and VLDL from 26 to 16. These changes are beneficial though perhaps insignificantly so. HDL also was reduced, from 26 to 24, and LDL was increased from 118 to 126. These changes are not beneficial, though again the measured changes are so small that they may be insignificant. We may conclude that the two week cycle, with use of Clomid, did not result in any significant worsening of blood lipid profile, and may have resulted in improvement of some parameters. This is in contrast to what is seen with traditional cycles where Clomid is not used and blood lipid profiles usually worsen dramatically.


Summary

With two weeks of fairly moderate steroid usage, and one week thus far of light usage which has avoided losses but caused no further gains, Jim has achieved size and strength improvements he is very pleased with. It will take several such cycles, however, for him to meet his ultimate goals. (No one can really expect that just two weeks of use, alone, will effect a complete transformation.) Jim’s results from two weeks of moderate use are probably more than he could have obtained in four years without any drug use, that estimate being made based on his previous experiences.

Blood test results are good, although we need to see if testosterone levels return to normal or above normal during the next two weeks, as expected. It will also be interesting to see if the elevated liver enzyme values (which are harmless and to be expected) will remain the same, or will be reduced as a consequence of using orals only in the morning.

Over the next three weeks, Jim hopes to lose a few pounds of fat while maintaining all or nearly all of his muscle gains. In my opinion, however, if he loses two pounds of bodyweight for each pound of fat lost, that result would be quite typical and would be good, and his gains are sufficient to accommodate that.


UPDATE

Jim has succeeded in retaining his strength gains, and even on improving his bench press, and has lost as little weight from his peak as could be expected (5 lb) considering that he lost ¾ inch from his waist in weeks 3 and 4. Overall he is now 8 lb heavier with a waist that is a half inch smaller, which probably represents a loss of about three pounds of bodyfat. I certainly hope that Jim will get a skinfold measurement at the end of week 6 to further quantitate these results.

He suffered no observed side effects except increased acne and a slight increase in irritability during the two "on" weeks, which might also have been caused by increased stress he was under at the time. Even blood pressure, which often rises during a cycle, remained normal at all times.

Furthermore, all of his blood cholesterol parameters were improved from the starting values, though perhaps insignificantly, and all liver values were normal (although CPK was not checked this time). That is despite the use of oral 17-alkylated anabolics: 20 mg/day each of Dianabol and oxandrolone. This I think is attributable to the dosing pattern of use only in the morning, a protocol I learned from a certain Greek physician.

I’d hope that his waist will be down to 32" by the end of week 6, and that the next cycle will see him with a bench of 325 or better and military press of over 200 at the 4 week point. By the end of the six week point of the second cycle, he should have a 31 or 31.5" waist with bodyweight of 183-188. So, Jim, the gauntlet has been laid down: go to it!


Week 6 of Jim’s cycle has ended, but although he is very eager to start another cycle and experience some more gains, he needs to take a week or two off. In an effort to cut up, he foolishly played basketball for a couple of hours per day every day for some time during his off weeks, and injured his knees in the process. Besides this, he also came down with the flu in Week 5, and ran out of Adipokinetix. So he wants to delay his pictures and bodyfat measurement for another week so that he can be more cut, and delay the start of the next cycle until his knees are better. This should take about a week.

Since various readers wrote in and proclaimed his legs to be a Federal "disaster area," Jim does not want to go into the cycle unable to do serious leg workouts. Furthermore he is going to get some more reasonable shorts so we can scrutinize improvements in the legs a little more closely.

On a serious note: actually, this bad-luck experience illustrates an advantage of the 2 on / 4 off cycle. All too often, in traditional cycles, an athlete feels he has too much invested in the cycle and has pinned so much hope on it that he cannot let an injury stop him. All too often, he will decide to "train through the pain," and all too often will wind up with a lifetime nagging injury from this decision. It just isn’t too unusual for things to happen in life that mess up our plans. Since one only gains two weeks at a time in this system, it’s much more forgiving of problems such as this. A setback doesn’t "ruin everything" but only introduces a brief delay.

Next cycle, training will be similar to the first, except that weights will be about 10% heavier and shrugs will be added to the program. The drug program will be somewhat different also. Jim is thinking either of contributing to scientific knowledge by continuing to use 50 mg/day trenbolone acetate but substituting 100 mg/day testosterone propionate for the 50 mg/day Dianabol so that a direct comparison may be made; or he may just go for the gains, saying the heck with science, and keep the Dianabol in there while adding the testosterone propionate.

We also will probably have salivary tests tracking the recovery of testosterone production, to see if it is largely back at the end of week 3 and to see if it is even higher in week 5 than in week 4. These things were not tested last time.


posted by realgains..cutting edge muscle

Steroids for health-SHORT CYCLES Explained
I would like to explain the benefits of short cycles for the recreational lifter, and that includes 95% of us I think. I would also like to clear up a few misconceptions in regard to short cycles in general.

WHAT MAKES A CYCLE SHORT

Short cycles are steroid cycles that do not exceed 4 weeks ,with 2-3 weeks "on" preferred.

WHY DO SHORT CYCLES

The main reason is to limit the negative health impact that steroids DO have on users.
For those of you that don't get lab work done while on steroids I would have you know that steroid use causes a very bad shift in the lipid profile. HDL(good cholesterol) which acts like a sticky sweeping broom to sweep up bad LDL (bad cholesterol) and prevent plaque build up on atery walls, goes EXTREMELY LOW in, dare I say, ALL MEN. Not only this but LDL levels usually climb and this is combo is not good.
Short cycles still cause a crappy lipid shift but not to the same degree as the long cycle. Also less time "On" means less time for potential aterial plaque build up.
After my last long cycle of 8 weeks I had some blood work done and my doc HAD A COW as my hdl to total cholesterol ratio was extremely poor.

There isn't a damn thing you can do to significantly avoid this....you can take niacin , flax oil , do cardio and have a pefect diet low in saturated fat and you will STILL get a very ****ty lipid profile.

So a very bad lipid profile with high ldl and rock bottom hdl is a SIGNIFICANT risk factor for aterial plaque build up and heart disease. As a side....anyone that thinks "Arny" only got his aortic valve done doesn't have a clue. I know for a fact that he had a coronary bypass as I have worked with members of the heart team that did his operation.

True there are other risk factors for heart disease but this is a big one and well documented as well.

HEW!!! Next ...short cycles limit other side effects like hair loss, acne, high Blood pressure and resulting kidney stress, testicular shrinkage and poor HPTA rebound.

Also short cycles are a heck of a lot easier on the old liver especially if 17aa orals are used....got to love d-bol he he he !

WHAT SHORT CYCLES ARE NOT

Short cycles will not result in bigger gains. Short cycles will not allow one to be competive in todays national level competitions. Short cycles will not give you 30 pounds of bulk at one time.

WHAT SHORT CYCLES CAN DO

Short cycles can give you decent gains that are FAR better than what you could attain to as a natural. Gains of 10 pounds are not infrequently kept form a short cycle with the novice or those that are not at least very close to their natural maximum weight.

Short cycles will allow a much quicker HPTA recovery than a long cycle and this allows one to kepp a higher percentage of ones gains. In fact full testosterone rebound often happens in but a week. Gains often continue in the weeks after the short cycle is over simply because ones natural test production often jumps a little higher than normal becuase the pituitary really hammers out the LH and the testes have not shunk.
My natural test production is quite good for a man of 40, at 550. I tested my test level a week after I stopped a 14 day cycle and it had rebonded to 650 from the immediate pre cycle 550. On day 15 it was down to 54!

How many of you bro's have experience gains AFTER coming off a 8 weeker...not a one I would say.

Lets face it bro's if you gain 25 -30 pouns of bulk in a long cycle you sure the hell aren't going to be able to hang onto more than 15 of those pounds over the next 6 months unless you were WAY WAY under your potential to begin with.

BEFORE DOING SHORT CYCLES.....

learn how to train and gain WITHOUT steroids. This is critical! IF one knows how to train without gear then adding a small amount of gear over a short period of time can result in great gains.
Trouble is almost nobody knows how to gain without steroids so they do the large doses over long periods of time to compensate for their chronic over training and poor training, habits.

ORIGIN OF SHORT CYCLES AND VARIATIONS

Well I am sure that there have always been men that used short cycles but the first one that I know of that actually spoke up on the matter was NELSON MONTANA, formerly of ******.

NELSON MONTANA advocated, and still does advocate, cycles of 3 weeks in length. Modest doses are used of 1000mg per week TOTAL or less. Injectables and orals are used. Usually the injectable is in a long acting ester and not injected once per week but several times per week in smaller doses as he belives this is better for anabolism. Nelsons favorite steroid is PRIMO but he does like sust, d-bol, winny and anavar. He will not use or recommend vet steroids like EQ or tren. He does not recommend nandrolone.

Nelson believes three weeks will offers the best trade off between gains and sides. He thinks two weeks "on" is not quite enough time "on"
His favorite combo's are sust/d-bol or primo/anavar.

Here is an example of Nelsons three weeker.

WEEK ONE
DAY ONE sust 250mg, day 3 primo 100mg, day 5 primo 100mg, day 7 primo 100mg. 25 of d-bol in divided doses per day.

WEEK TWO
Test cyp or enanthate 100mg, day 10 primo 100mg and day 12 primo 100mg, day 14 primo 100mg. 25 of winny per day

WEEK THREE
day 16 primo 100, day 18 primo 100, day 20 primo 100 and day 22 primo 100 and also anavar 25 per day

Notice how the cycle uses weaker orals as the weeks go on and the non aromatizable and weker primo . This is to limit inhibition to some degree AND also to limit water gain for good post cycle lean tissue realization

WEEK FOUR ...OPTIONAL
25 of proviron for 5 days and only in the am. This is to help with sex drive, prevent estrogen back lash and act as a mild form of a taper. 25 mg only done in the am is not very inhibitory. I like its ability to ward off estrogen rebound post cycle.

Nelson does not believe that clomid is necessary after his cycles and may actually cause harm in some men.

The above is a complicated cycle that is not cheap but Nelson thinks it is the ultimate short cycle. Similar but cheaper short cycle s can be based on the MONTANA METHOD.

IN COMES BILL ROBERTS!!!

Now Bill Roberts has been preaching short cycles for some time know, but not as long as Nelson. He says that he was taught his method but a Greek physicain that trains athletes in Europe. It is strange that he never even mentions Nelson and his method and this tells me that he may have stolen the idea from Nelson in the first place.

Anyway Roberts recommends higher doses of strickly short acting injectables and powerful orals. Front loading injectables is recommended.
Roberts is a big believer in clomid post cycle. He also believes in using HCG if cycles are long or less than 4 weeks are taken between repeated two week cycles ,so as to prevent testicular shrinkage and the resulting poor HPTA recovery.

Roberts believes that after two weeks the pituitary becomes inhibited and not just the testes and hypothalamus and thus he recommends 14 days "on" as the limit IF you are striving for very rapid HPTA recovery.

I have used the "Roberts" cycles with good success as have many others including a few of my close friends but I plan on trying Nelsons method soon.

ROBERTS EXAMPLES


Day one, tren front loaded at 150mg and then tren 75 mg per day through day 12.
Dbol 50 mg per day in divided doses through day 14.
Clomid therapy starting day 15 and for 4 weeks or three weeks if clomid was used as an anti estrogen during the "on" weeks. He will also use estrogen inhibitors if aromatization is expected to be high.

Second example for the larger man...
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-150mg per day for 11 days. Tren 150mg per day on day one and then 50-75 per day for 12 days, winstrol 50 mg per day for 14 days.

Other combo's include Tren/winny., test/d-bol winny., Tren/winny /d-bol....etc etc..

Notice that no long acting injectable is used. This is done to allow for a very rapid post cycle elimination of androgens so as to prevent additional lengthening of the cycle. This is Key point in the Roberts two weeker because he believes that any time "on" past two weeks will not allow for the most rapid HPTA recovery. He goes so far as to say that recovery after three week "on" is not especially quicker than recover after 8 weeks "on"

Roberts sites many examples of 7-10 plus pounds kept from his two weekers.

The man that is above his natural max weight (ie: 5'9-10 " and a leanish 190) cannot expect to gains 10 pounds in two weeks but 5 pounds in not uncommon.

NOTE>>> Both Roberts and Montana recommend at least 4 weeks off between these cycles. Roberts does say that two weeks off can be okay, but if repeated two weekers are done then HCG should be used during the cycle at 500iu's per day to prevent testicular shrinkage over the months.

So try short cycles if you are really concerned about your health and want to minimize the risks of steroid use, yet still wish to use steroids , and if you want to keep a higher percentage of your gains from a cycle.

Good luck and I hope this clears a few things up

posted by REALGAINS again

2 week cycles HOW & WHY
I decided to try 2 week cycles after reading about them in Mesorx.com and ******.com. Bill Roberts got the idea from a Greek doctor and strength/ athletic coach.
I am tired of my VERY crappy lipid profiles while "on" traditional cycles and have decided to stick to 2 week cycles and moderate 8 weeks cycles with mild non 17aa roids AAS like EQ.. and maybe low doses test.

Bill Roberts posts a study done on "Jim" at mesorx.com that showed very favorable results and no sides effects to speak of.

WHY DO VERY SHORT CYCLES

Short cycles, properly done, WILL give decent results, not huge results but pretty good none the less.
These cycles will interest the very health conscious, those that wish to reduce their steroid use, and the paranoid newbie. They would also appeal the "athlete" looking for some extra stength, size and speed.
Those that get really messed up lipid profiles while "on" longer cycles should also consider very short cycles.
They are NOT for the highly competitive bodybuilder BTW.

Bill Roberts has noted that liver enzymes do not elevate much at all, even while using 50 of d-bol per day, and lipid profiles do not change much. Also the very short time "on' would negate the adverse affects of a poor lipid profile IMHO.
Also Roberts has discussed how the pituitary is not shut down after only 14 days "on" and is even hypersensitive to GnRH form the hypothalamus and thus natural test recovery is very rapid.
Testicular shrinkage is not an issue with 2 week cycles so the testes respond very well to LH post cycle.
So the testes do stop putting out test but recovery is very rapid.

Roberts also points out that "Jim", in his study on Mesorx.com ,had his test levels come back slightly higher than his normal after a week of clomid therapy.
I have noticed that test recovery is indeed VERY rapid post cycle and I seem to be able to continue with gains in strength post cycle. Perhaps this is due to a hyper-responsive pituitary.

How many of you have been able to gain well post cycle with clomid after a traditional long cycle...I suppose none really.


HOW TO DO THEM

Hormone levels need to be high right out of the gate with 2 week cycles as we have no time to wait/waste. With that in mind one needs to limit the choice of hormones to those that are in very rapid acting form. Clearance needs to be rapid as well and these "fit the bill". If clearance is not rapid then you are actually "on' for longer than two weeks and the super rapid test recovery may be impossible. After two weeks the pituitary seems to become inhibited as well as the hypothalamus and testes.
Also we need to use powerful androgens to see best results.

This leaves OUT Deca, EQ, Test cyp/enanthate/sust and the like.
Good choices are Test prop, Tren, winstrol and all the powerful orals like d-bol.

Front loading is important.

Examples.

test prop at 300mg on day one and then 100-125 per day through day 11 and then stop. Tren at 150 on day one and then 75-80 per day through day 12 and then stop. Clomid on day 15 and for 4 "off " weeks.

Tren as above and d-bol 50mg per day in 4-5 divided doses through day 14 and then clomid on day 15.

OR tren/winstrol/
OR test/d-bol
There are many combo's

Larger doses can be used by those that are above their natural max weights.

WHAT TO EXPECT
Well the man that is well above his natural maximum weight cannot expect much but can keep a very solid 3-4 pounds of pure muscle. I have kept 5 pounds however.
For those that are not yet at their natural max weight (5'9" and a lean 190...adding 7 pounds for every inch above 5'9") A keeping gain of up to 8-10 pounds can be achieved as long as training, diet and rest are spot on. Jim at mesorx.com kept about 9 pounds I believe and lots of strength, and he didn't even do heavy leg work!
With these 2 weekers your seem to keep a higher percentage of the gain and this is likely due to very rapid natural test recovery.

One can be "on" two week cycles all year round pretty safely as long as 4-6 weeks off are taken between cycles. You could do 2 "on" 2 "off" but I would suspect that some testicular shrinkage would results after a few cycles so if you want to do this then take HCG at 500iu's per day while "on"

Best of gains and health to you all.

Be safe

[austinite]

We have a section for logs... it's not this one.

[chi]

so you are running tren with no test?

[austinite]

*** Moved to members cycles section.

[yannick35]

I have not updated this tread, i am sorry, last week my ex girlfriend who i was with for 8 years dropped the H bomb on me, she left me she told me she did not love me anymore, we are selling the house, worst she told me that she got something for this guy at her job. I have invested 8 years into her, i always treated her right, respected her, was faithful and i get this. What in the hell did i do to deserve this anyways.

I hope that at some point she regrets her decision, we had a beautiful house in a very peaceful place. I have lost my homegym in the process and returned to my mothers place great for a 41 year old, i need to get my brain straight.

The first 3 days where very hard, i was actually thinking about suicide, she has been everything to me for the last 8 years.

Today i realized that i was the one in the relationship always giving giving and giving, and she never really did anything for me, she was very egoistical. When her bday came around i always gathered a lot of people and threw a big surprise party for her had a cake made and everything, she never did that for me in 8 years, worst today June 21th is my b-day and she left me last week.

This girl was egoistical and she gave me very bad sex, we had sex like once every 2 weeks her libido was terrible, i tried to work true this and accepted her has she was, love is blind. I always surprised her with weekend trips and more gifts she never did that for me.

At 41 i am scared to death to start something with another women, seems like everyone today is lost and does not know what they want, they are very self centered.

In all of this my training has been amazing, and the only thing that helped me get threw this. I have lost 13 pounds so far finally down to 223 i was able to break the 230 barrier that i was stuck for so long.

I am doing a small tren win cycle at 50mg each EOD the tren is a bomb for strength amazing.

Its my second week on it now and i already see a difference. I want to shed i want to get back in shape i want to look good for my age, this fat has been around for way to long.

I have ordered some clen and T3 i will used it during my break from the cycle.

so 5 weeks on tren win V then 5 weeks clen T3 then 5 weeks tren win V, until i reach my goal.

My libidio is very high i could have sex 3 times per day so the fact that this cycle does not have testosterone has not affected anything even my balls are still big.

I am taking aramidex 05ml twice per week. I have lost a lot of fat around the waist i do credit diet, stress from my separation and insane training.

The weights are going up each workout, so far no ligament pain from the win V.

I am done trying to figure out why my ex girlfriend did what she did, a guy at my job suffered the same thing is girlfriend told him she did not love him anymore and they sold the house, she came back a month later crying and saying she made a mistake he is back with her and the bough a new house. I am not that stupid she left she broke me i am never getting back with her, i just hope she realizes all she is losing in this.

For me now i am discourage at 41 i don't want to start sleeping around like i did when i was younger, i rather find someone that i can do things with, like walks, hiking go on trips etc. My back is doing so much better i will soon be able to do cardio and more.

I sometimes try to figure out what is life's plan and why its so hard since 2006 i lost my father to cancer, various pets that have gone to soon, i suffered from chronic back pain, i went into a depression and burnout in 2008 for 6 months, and lost my job when i came back, i was put on TRT and gained loads of fat and now my ex girlfriend who 6 months ago told me she would be lost without me just left me for another man.

[yannick35]

Winstrol is out , what has been said about joint pain and muscle spasm is real.

I am doing 4-5 week cycle just finished my tren winstrol anavar cycle quit amazing change and fat loss.

I also added some T3 and Clen. The muscle spams are sick tough.

Next cycle i planned in 4 weeks, will be tren ace, dbol and anavar.

I will also add clen and T3 to lose even more weight i so far have shed 15 pounds and my body has changed.

I will also have clomid aramidex and prami on hand for the next cycle.

I plan on doing 4-5 small cycle to get back my muscle maturity.

Still dealing with the fact that i lost my house and more. And i am looking into the option of staying single for the rest of my life.