Serious Cutting For The First Time - Help Me Survive This

[pudgeball]

Hey Guys, I've been lurking around on the forums for a couple of years and wanted your input on my cutting diet and TDEE estimates.

Here are my stats:
------------------

Sex: M
Age: 23 yrs.
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 231 lbs
Body Fat %: 23% (waist is almost 42 inches so that could be higher)

I've been lifting for a couple years and have done two botched cycles . In case in you're interested in checking out those disasters , you can access that thread through my profile link . I wanted to post a direct link to that, but I can't as I haven't posted here yet enough, so if the mods/admins can assist me and post the link that would be greatly appreciated .

My main goal is to get as big and muscular as I possibly can . However before I bulk, as told by many people I need to start off with a reasonably lean body of around 10-12% bf before I attempt to pack on mass for a whole bunch of really good reasons.I'd like to get down to those percentages as fast as I can obviously in an effecient manner that leaves as much strength and lbm intact as possible. I'm willing to undergo such torture until I get around to that bf level even if that takes half a year or more . When I finally can bulk I'll do it in the leanest possible way using the methods you guys posted in the nutrition forum so I'll never have to cut so miserably for so long ever again .

Anyways I'm doing a typical bodybuilding/training program thats about 4 exercises per bodypart, with 4 sets per excerise with reps between 6-10 . I'm also babysat by an awesome trainer everyday that I lift weights, and I'm currently working my way up to doing 60 mins of cardio everyday at a moderate pace at 50%-75% of my Max. heart rate . (Right now I can only get in a half hour, however thats steadily improving) .

Here's where my lifts are in case you're wondering how crappy they are:

Bench: 225 for 5

Standing Military
Barbbell Press: 135 for 14

Deadlift: 405 for 3
Squat: 275 for 6


After taking in the above to account, and double checking my math on the TDEE calcuations on days I lift and do cardio I need 2294 calories to maintain my weight, and on days I only jog I need 2035 calories to stay the same weight .

Here's my question on the TDEE estimates:

1.) If I lift 4 days a week with the intent of preserving lbm/strength and run for 30 to (eventually) 60 mins a day (at 50%-75% max heart rate) would that be considered "moderate" excercise interms of the TDEE calculation formula ?

2.) If I do a 500 calorie deficit that means :

On days I lift and run I'm given :


265g protein
94g carbs
40g fats
-------------
1794 calories


On days I just run I'm given:

265g protein
42g carbs
34g fats
-------------
1535 calories


Obviously, the above totals are going to be divided amongst 6-8 meals a day however those calorie estimates seem a bit a low, or am I spot on and I just need to suck it up and realize I'm paying for all the very bad decisions I've made ? I'm especially curious because 1500 cals for a (fat) 235lb guy doesn't seem like a whole lot and I certainly don't want to go in starvation mode and torture myself needlessly .

Thanks in advance for your input ! Obviously, being this fat I've never done this before so any guidance and help is *VERY* much appreicated . (Especially considering how I feel like I'm going through freakin valium/alchohol withdrawal at this caloric deficit.)

I'll also be posting pictures of myself by monday latest so you can see where I'm starting off at in addition to what my meal plans are going to be .

[--->>405<<---]

pudge welcome dude. ive been where u currently are at. u can do it man just stay committed!

easiest rough maintenance formula: LBM x 15

for you this woud be 231lbs 23%bf

231 x .77 = 177.87lbs LBM

177.87 x 15 = 2668 (rough maintenance)

to cut id start around 2200cals

ur cals above are way too low! id run a 40/40/20 split pro/carbs/fat which would be:

2200cals
220g pro
220g carbs
49g fat

post a diet hitting these macros and lets see how u do. id run this diet everyday until the weight loss slows. id do cardio at least 4 days per week at 30mins to start right now. u dont want to do too much right off the bat because u want to leave room for tweaks when u hit plateaus.. which is bound to happen.

read this s well:
http://forums.steroid.com/nutrition-...1-cutting.html

[pudgeball]

pudge welcome dude. ive been where u currently are at. u can do it man just stay committed!

177.87 x 15 = 2668 (rough maintenance)

to cut id start around 2200cals

ur cals above are way too low! id run a 40/40/20 split pro/carbs/fat which would be:

2200cals
220g pro
220g carbs
49g fat

Hey, thanks ! I did read and follow that exact link with the calculations and I got around 2000-2300 just to maintain my weight when I followed the steps on my own. But you're saying about 2700 cals is what I need for weight maintenance ? That's a lot more calories than what I estimated using that link, sorry I'm a little confused by the increase

[Docd187123]

Hey, thanks ! I did read and follow that exact link with the calculations and I got around 2000-2300 just to maintain my weight when I followed the steps on my own. But you're saying about 2700 cals is what I need for weight maintenance ? That's a lot more calories than what I estimated using that link, sorry I'm a little confused by the increase

That 2000 you calculated is likely BMR and not TDEE. There's a difference as TDEE includes activity, exercise and daily life while BMR is basically in a somewhat catatonic state.

[--->>405<<---]

^^ yeh forget the tdee calculator that uses the multiplier. That forula errs too much to the high side.

For an estimate: (LBM x 15) is best IMO. Of course this only gets u started. From there u will have to see how u respond. I think for the average person it is decently close.

In case u were wondering your BMR (basal metabolic rate) = (LBM (in kg) x 21.6) + 370

To figure LBM (in kg): (total weight x %lean) x .4536

%lean = 100 - bf% (in ur case 23) which = 77(%lean)

Hope this helps (LOL)

[Docd187123]

^^ yeh forget the tdee calculator that uses the multiplier. That forula errs too much to the high side.

For an estimate: (LBM x 15) is best IMO. Of course this only gets u started. From there u will have to see how u respond. I think for the average person it is decently close.

In case u were wondering your BMR (basal metabolic rate) = (LBM (in kg) x 21.6) + 370

To figure LBM (in kg): (total weight x %lean) x .4536

%lean = 100 - bf% (in ur case 23) which = 77(%lean)

Hope this helps (LOL)

I know the Katch-McArdle formula when I see it lol! If one has an accurate BF% estimate then the Katch-McArdle formula is by far the most accurate as it takes LBM into consideration not total mass

[--->>405<<---]

I know the Katch-McArdle formula when I see it lol! If one has an accurate BF% estimate then the Katch-McArdle formula is by far the most accurate as it takes LBM into consideration not total mass

LOL .. You are correct sir!

The main thing wrong with the rest of it is the multiplier. 1.55 is to high IMO. For me 1.2-1.25 is closer which coincidentally is almost exactly the same as (LBM x 15).

[Docd187123]

LOL .. You are correct sir!

The main thing wrong with the rest of it is the multiplier. 1.55 is to high IMO. For me 1.2-1.25 is closer which coincidentally is almost exactly the same as (LBM x 15).

I find that for myself, LBM x 15 is too low a maintenance level but I'm extremely active at my job (physically demanding). Doing that calculation leaves me a maintenance. Of 2900calories. I know at 2900calories I'm cutting slowly but still dropping weight lol. There's just so much variation between all of us and our activity levels that any one calculator or formula will have a hard time fitting all the extremes. As you pointed out here and in other threads though, it's close for the average person and it may require fine tuning.

[--->>405<<---]

^^ lucky you, at 2900 per day i would slowly gain weight. Im about 2600-2700 maintenance. I sit on my butt all day.

[Docd187123]

^^ lucky you, at 2900 per day i would slowly gain weight. Im about 2600-2700 maintenance. I sit on my butt all day.

Lol I'm such a fattie/foodie.

Sorry for the hijack OP!

[pudgeball]

So to recap what you guys are saying, according to 405's formula of my LBM multiplied by 15, that should give me maintenance calories for the day assuming I'm running and lifitng ?

Thus, my maintenance of 2700 subtracted by a deficit of 500 is going to leave me with 2200 as 405 reccomened . According to the 40/40/20 macro split you mentioned earlier that should be:

220g pro
220g carbs
49g fat
--------------
2200 cals
Now I'm looking at this carb piece of the split and I'd like to ask you guys if I should add in more protein at the expense of carbs . 220g carbs is about 3 to 4 large bagels . Being mildy obese don't you think I'm already insulin sensitive so my body would have an easier time shuttling the carbs I consume straight into more bodyfat ? So perhaps 340gs of protein and 100gs of carbs ?

One other thing too, will I even need 100gs of carbs on days I'm just running or completely even resting according as 405 suggested

[--->>405<<---]

^^ at 23% body fat i am assuming up to this point your diet and training regimen has been less than ideal? If this is correct, simply cleaning up ur diet and exercising while establishing a caloric deficit should be enuff to get the fat coming off. If u start throwing lower carbs and cals at it (ur diet) now u will have less room for tweaks down the road when progress slows.

U have tools for adjusting ur diet. Low carbs, carb cycling, more cardio, lower calories, etc... U want to only pull these tools out when u need them. If u utilize every tool rite off the jump, whatcha gonna do when that stops working?

[Docd187123]

Agree with 405, don't show your hand so to speak and throw every tool in your arsenal in from the beginning. Once this simple calorie deficit stops working, add in light cardio. When that stops working drop carbs a bit. Next carb cycle. Next drop calories further. Next up cardio. Doesn't have to be in this specific order but it gives you an idea of what to do.

One thing I would disagree on is don't use macro splits like 40/40/20 or any other percentages. They can leave you deficient in certain things if you're not careful. In this case I believe 50g of dietary fat is deficient for you. From the literature I've read, one would need .4g/lb of body weight of dietary fat as a minimum. Now .4g/lb of body weight of dietary fat at your weight of 231lbs is around 92g of fat. Even if only considering lbm (which the literature says to use body weight. Not LBM) you have roughly 177lbs of lbm and 50ish lbs of fat mass. .4g/lb of LBM would still be 72g of dietary fat and you're still below that. I'd cut back in carbs or protein or even both and bump up your fats to around 70g minimum.

[--->>405<<---]

^^^ u got a link to this literature doc?

[Docd187123]

^^^ u got a link to this literature doc?

I'll have to hunt it down as I read it a while ago but someone I know read the Same thing and sent it to me so I'll ask him too. I'll look tomorrow as I'm heading out in a bit.

[--->>405<<---]

I'll have to hunt it down as I read it a while ago but someone I know read the Same thing and sent it to me so I'll ask him too. I'll look tomorrow as I'm heading out in a bit.

have fun!

[pudgeball]

Agree with 405, don't show your hand so to speak and throw every tool in your arsenal in from the beginning. Once this simple calorie deficit stops working, add in light cardio. When that stops working drop carbs a bit. Next carb cycle. Next drop calories further. Next up cardio. Doesn't have to be in this specific order but it gives you an idea of what to do. .

Doc, I get what you and 405 are saying about not using every technique at once so I can reserve them for when my weight plateaus, however you're saying I should just *stop/not do* running until my weight loss plateaus with the simple diet ? I'm kinda thrown off on that because the educational cutting threads pretty much demanded that I should do 45 to 60 mins of cardio everyday .

I get what 405 was saying about just doing 30mins of cardio 4days a week so I don't max out the benefits on that and since I'm just starting out, but to completely cut it out ? As miserable as it can be sometimes it makes me feel really fat, guilty and lazy that I'd be 230lbs and not running. You know what I mean ?

One thing I would disagree on is don't use macro splits like 40/40/20 or any other percentages. . . Now .4g/lb of body weight of dietary fat at your weight of 231lbs is around 92g of fat. Even if only considering lbm (which the literature says to use body weight. Not LBM) you have roughly 177lbs of lbm and 50ish lbs of fat mass. .4g/lb of LBM would still be 72g of dietary fat and you're still below that. I'd cut back in carbs or protein or even both and bump up your fats to around 70g minimum.

Okay, really lost here . How should I adjust those macros in accordance with the studies that you've read ?

-92gs of fat , 72gs of fat ?
-At this current time what would be more helpful ; Should I cut the carbs the protein or both at the expense of the increased fat ?

(I'm assuming these marcos are based on my 2200 calorie diet)

I also really can't post up a sample daily diet until a decision gets made on the above macro issues .

Thanks again guys for the insight, I'm just a little lost with the varying nauances and I just want to choose the most effecient route thats gonna make me the least miserable for the shortest amount of time , cause rememeber I'm putting getting big leanly (which is what I really really really want) on hold until, I can get down to a reasonable bf % .

[tarmyg]

Are you diabetic?

Thanks
~T

---

"I stay mostly by myself, but it's OK, they know me here"
Follow my personal story here: Anabolic Steroids - Steroid.com Forums - An honest journey - Blogs

[pudgeball]

Are you diabetic?

Thanks
~T

Fortunately , I'm not diabetic or pre diabetic . Just mildly obese .

[--->>405<<---]

pudge the most important thing is that u do something! i appreciate what doc has to say, i dont know him well, but from what ive seen of his posts he is an intelligent fellow, however i know what works for me and has worked for others. while im not disputing his claim, and maybe we may need more fat, from my experience 40/40/20 at the numbers i gave u with the cardio amounts i gave u are a good starting point. i dont necessarily think he was suggesting for u to do no cardio, but maybe just giving an illustration. ill let him answer that.

for now, run the 40/40/20 i told u about. hit the cardio 4 times per week at 30 mins and work ur way up to 5-6 days at 45-60 minutes. u can throw some HIIT in there down the road.

lets see ur diet.

[pudgeball]

Hey guys I tried posting the entire diet multiple times (which by the way actually took me about 80 mins to make up because I had to actually do a bunch of math and look at labels and such) but the forum software says that the diet post can not be added to the thread until a moderator approves of my submission . So mods please approve of the post as it doesn't violate any of the term of service of this board so I can recieve the help I need from the other nice knowledgable members here . Thank you

[Docd187123]

^^^ u got a link to this literature doc?

I'm still hunting the source down for my claim. Have found references to it in the works of Lyle McDonald but not the original paper that I had read. Will keep looking my friend.

have fun!

Thanks, had a blast

Doc, I get what you and 405 are saying about not using every technique at once so I can reserve them for when my weight plateaus, however you're saying I should just *stop/not do* running until my weight loss plateaus with the simple diet ? I'm kinda thrown off on that because the educational cutting threads pretty much demanded that I should do 45 to 60 mins of cardio everyday .

I get what 405 was saying about just doing 30mins of cardio 4days a week so I don't max out the benefits on that and since I'm just starting out, but to completely cut it out ? As miserable as it can be sometimes it makes me feel really fat, guilty and lazy that I'd be 230lbs and not running. You know what I mean ?

I did not mean to stop the cardio if you're currently doing it. Cardio has more benefits than just burning calories: it's good for the cardiovascular system, can help your aerobic performance/endurance, will help with performing the Valsalva Manuever during your lifts, and Lyle McDonald has seen some evidence that light cardio even during a bulk can possibly help keep fat burning/oxidizing pathways open. I in no way meant to contradict what 405 was telling you as he's given you nothing but solid advice. I was just trying to paint a general picture for you of the progression of tweaks for cutting and I even said "to give you a general idea of what to do".

Okay, really lost here . How should I adjust those macros in accordance with the studies that you've read ?

-92gs of fat , 72gs of fat ?
-At this current time what would be more helpful ; Should I cut the carbs the protein or both at the expense of the increased fat ?

(I'm assuming these marcos are based on my 2200 calorie diet)

I also really can't post up a sample daily diet until a decision gets made on the above macro issues .

Thanks again guys for the insight, I'm just a little lost with the varying nauances and I just want to choose the most effecient route thats gonna make me the least miserable for the shortest amount of time , cause rememeber I'm putting getting big leanly (which is what I really really really want) on hold until, I can get down to a reasonable bf % .

I would personally bump up the fats at least slightly and reduce the carbs to compensate and keep calories the same but I cannot find the link to back up my claim about .4g/lb BW as a recommended minimum for dietary fats at the moment.

pudge the most important thing is that u do something! i appreciate what doc has to say, i dont know him well, but from what ive seen of his posts he is an intelligent fellow, however i know what works for me and has worked for others. while im not disputing his claim, and maybe we may need more fat, from my experience 40/40/20 at the numbers i gave u with the cardio amounts i gave u are a good starting point. i dont necessarily think he was suggesting for u to do no cardio, but maybe just giving an illustration. ill let him answer that.

for now, run the 40/40/20 i told u about. hit the cardio 4 times per week at 30 mins and work ur way up to 5-6 days at 45-60 minutes. u can throw some HIIT in there down the road.

lets see ur diet.

Sage advice! Action is needed. Don't spend your entire time trying to micro manage a diet that will have no effects on you bc you never ran it and tried to keep making it perfect. I would argue for slightly higher fats but as 405 points out, any of the changes you make in regards to his recommendations will produce results. Yes 405 I meant exactly that, an illustration and not telling him to not do cardio lol.

Thank you for the kind words .

Here's a link regarding why I personally don't like using percentages. This is not to say they can't work or that you're wrong for using them or your advice here is incorrect, merely I prefer giving ranges based off stats instead of percentages.

Diet Percentages: Part 2 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

[--->>405<<---]

good article and very illustrative as i would expect from one of the kings of nutrition! i am a very big lyle fan and have read several of his books and successfully ran ultimate diet 2.0 back in 2012. i learned more from that book and diet than anything else ive done..

i did not recall seeing any conclusive data on fat requirements though?? below is all i saw. if i missed it id appreciate u pointing it out>

As I pointed out early in this chapter and elsewhere, daily nutrient requirements are (generally) based on bodyweight, not the percentage of that nutrient in a diet. If someone requires, say, 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight, they need 1 gram per pound whether it represents 10%, 50% or 100% of their total calories. If someone needs 5 g/kg of carbs to maintain performance, that’s what they need whether it’s 40% of their total calories or 60% of their total calories. If they need X grams of fat (X not really having been established at this point except for minimal essential fatty acid requirements), they need X grams no matter the percentage. Are we clear now on the different between percentages and total grams? I certainly hope so.