Opinion on Natural Bodybuilders using TRT

[SkiFlex]

Pretty basic but intriguing question. Im a 45 yr old Natural BB but not a life long natural. From 88-98 I did my share of gear including but not limited to some pretty toxic stuff. However, been off for many years and started competing in natural shows 10 years ago.

A lot of anabolic use I admit in my younger days, but its done and I cant undo it. Having said that my test levels have come in at around 249 recently. Pretty low. So If my good doctor is so kind to put me on a non invasive TRT treatment of some Androgel, to bring my levels back to normal or "optimal" does that preclude me from competing naturally any longer?

Again, not looking at 1000> type of levels, just a normal level.

[powerlifterty16]

I dont consider you a natural bodybuilder since you've used gear in the past so at this point the other question doesn't matter.

I' do consider guys who NEED trt and WHO STAY in the physiologic range to still be natural. If a guy is at 300 tt h can't be penalized imo for taking trt and going up to 1000..i think going to 1100 or 1200 is not natural anymore even though it's in the normal range...just my opinion.

[Beethoven]

A very intriguing question. I think Now if you're on trt and your levels are within normal ranges, yes. You would be natural at this point in time. Have you been "natural" always? Obviously not.

[Back In Black]

Don't the federation(s) you compete in have specific rules about it?

[SkiFlex]

Don't the federation(s) you compete in have specific rules about it?

thats a very fair question. Im a little embarassed to admit I havent a clue what the federation's position is on testosterone replacement. I dont believe they address an athlete trying to restore a normal level of test.

[bullshark99]

Just guessing here but if your using anything (gel or inject) regardless of past use, and I for one appreciate the way you put it "its done and I cant undue it" we all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them but looking at any professional sport baseball, football any of them, if you test dirty, regardless of your levels you get banned or suspended or fined for PED use. Prob 10-30% of professional players can test below "normal" for Testosterone but that does not allow them to use TRT and still play. Most of them would do it legally if the rules allowed it.

Anyhow, good for you for staying clean and still competing, tough gig, esp with a T level at 249.

[Back In Black]

thats a very fair question. Im a little embarassed to admit I havent a clue what the federation's position is on testosterone replacement. I dont believe they address an athlete trying to restore a normal level of test.

I assume that they do drugs testing. I'm not sure if they would check test levels or just for compounds/esthers, maybe you could make an anonymous enquiries?

[Brett N]

Not all professional sports are against TRT. UFC has made it legal and is pretty lax with their tolerance. You would have to check with the rules. That being said, if you used test to get your numbers up to 750 or so...nobody would ever question it and I don't think testosterone would make you fail a drug test on its own. Any ai may fail it though, not sure.

The question is, do you think it is ethically right? Personally, I think it would give you an edge and would be performance enhancing. That is the whole point of TRT, to make you feel like you did when you were younger and produced a healthy amount of test.

[powerlifterty16]

in mma i dont think it's ethical. I doubt any of those guys have low t, and if they do it's from steroid use. Now im fine with guys who use steroids taking trt, but they can not compete in the ufc imo.
If a guy has never used roids and has low t, then yes he should be on trt and can compete in the ufc, but how likely is a guy like that going to have naturally low t, even if we say low t is below 4rhundred?

[Metalject]

in mma i dont think it's ethical. I doubt any of those guys have low t, and if they do it's from steroid use. Now im fine with guys who use steroids taking trt, but they can not compete in the ufc imo.
If a guy has never used roids and has low t, then yes he should be on trt and can compete in the ufc, but how likely is a guy like that going to have naturally low t, even if we say low t is below 4rhundred?

If guys who have ever used steroids shouldn't be allowed to compete in the UFC or any pro sport for that matter, you're going to have to ban sports.

[dreadnok89]

And a 1000 is still normal. So the way I see this whole UTC ordeal bullshit is if you use hrt and stay normal ranges your a cheater but it its OK to be at a disadvantage and run low? That's silly. And you would be amazed who has low T- its documented you still gain muscle and a be in shape with low-t. Some dudes are just more strait up dedicated and tougher than others and deal with it

[SEOINAGE]

I believe most methods for testing have some comparison where epitestosterone is involved, and compares some ratio, and if you are using exogenous test you will likely fail it. I have heard of testing being done that checks your actual T levels as well. I actually don't know if the officials of your sport would even tell you what methods you use, that would just make it easier to beat the test, with that said people are beating tests all the time yet use to some extent.

Personally I believe natural is no exogenous test. But I also think natural competitions and drug testing are all pointless. I don't consider trt natural personally, I know many others do, but if someone asks me if I'm all natural I tell them yes. In dealing with the general population they wouldn't understand trt if you tried to explain it to them. Because even if technically you are in normal healthy ranges, by definition to me it isn't natural, but you are in normal ranges, which in a way is enough to them that they don't need to know it took medication to get you normal, so I would go on calling yourself natural, but deep down I wouldn't feel it.

Bottom line is wherever you compete if you want to play by the rules you need to find out what is ok and follow it.

As for being off of gear for 10 years, I would consider you natural now, 10 years is a long time to still have any kind of advantage from steroids, and extremely doubtful. Others would say you aren't a lifetime natural, but who cares? No one would know unless you have a failed drug test on your record.

[APIs]

LOL @ some of the cynical postings here. I tend not to comment on a person’s journey unless I’ve attempted to make it myself. OP is not making any money at this. Getting back into a sport or hobby that you enjoy comes down to a quality of life issue first & foremost. Why the need to dissect & analyze it?

Life is a sequence of personal decisions & resulting outcomes. We can’t undo past decisions, as we wouldn’t be the person we are today. So as long as you’ve become a productive individual then perception after the fact is really pointless if you think about it…

[Low Testosterone]

And a 1000 is still normal. So the way I see this whole UTC ordeal bullshit is if you use hrt and stay normal ranges your a cheater but it its OK to be at a disadvantage and run low? That's silly. And you would be amazed who has low T- its documented you still gain muscle and a be in shape with low-t. Some dudes are just more strait up dedicated and tougher than others and deal with it

It's really not a matter of dedication and toughness, it has more to do with genetically pure luck. Some guys who have low levels will push harder and harder than any man you've ever seen. Somehow they maintain this mental toughness but in the end they're beating their head against the wall. And then there are others who can still make some progress, but I would call them the exception, the lucky.

And for whatever it's worth, a lot of MMA guys have low testosterone, tons. Think about it, constant blows to the head, possible testicular injuries, an extremely stressful way of life. How could you not end up with LowT?

[kelkel]

LOL @ some of the cynical postings here. I tend not to comment on a person’s journey unless I’ve attempted to make it myself. OP is not making any money at this. Getting back into a sport or hobby that you enjoy comes down to a quality of life issue first & foremost. Why the need to dissect & analyze it?

Life is a sequence of personal decisions & resulting outcomes. We can’t undo past decisions, as we wouldn’t be the person we are today. So as long as you’ve become a productive individual then perception after the fact is really pointless if you think about it…

Well said API.

[Brett N]

It's not really being cynical at all. OP asked for opinions and everyone gave theirs. That is what happens when you ask for opinions. Opinions cannot be right or wrong (or cycnical). They just are what they are. I don't think anyone was purposely trying to be a jerk or anything. This is a hot topic in MMA and I would assume in all sports.

The UFC got off topic though. If you are within guidelines of what rules allow - go for it.

As far as UFC is concerned -

For approval, it requires a number of tests, including those showing lower than healthy levels of testosterone and an exam from an endocrinologist. The athlete must also submit a number of tests for a six-month period prior to a fight showing a blood serum testosterone level under 1,100 ng/dL, which is the high end of normal range. Two tests above that range within a six-month period of competition will result in the fighter being removed from competition, although they will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Source - California putting temporary hold on approving TRT exemptions - MMA Fighting

[powerlifterty16]

And a 1000 is still normal. So the way I see this whole UTC ordeal bullshit is if you use hrt and stay normal ranges your a cheater but it its OK to be at a disadvantage and run low? That's silly. And you would be amazed who has low T- its documented you still gain muscle and a be in shape with low-t. Some dudes are just more strait up dedicated and tougher than others and deal with it

dude I even said I dont think people with real low t should be at a disadvantage, but if a guy who has 600 tt wants to take ''trt'' and go to 1200 and then compete in the ufc, he is a cheater.

[Beethoven]

Hey dude let me just say that if you think that guys in the UFC are cheaters for doing AAS, you would almost have no one fighting. It is a very few people that are genetically gifted, everyone else needs help. I don't be grudge anyone for doing so if it means a career with millions in it. How many of us have "cheated" with cycles in our lifetime and we didn't even compete in anything, only to look bigger and/or better. To each his own.

[powerlifterty16]

None of them should be doing it. if noone did it, then they wouldn't need ''help'' to fight because their opponents would be easier to beat, to compliment their own levels.

[kelkel]

dude I even said I dont think people with real low t should be at a disadvantage, but if a guy who has 600 tt wants to take ''trt'' and go to 1200 and then compete in the ufc, he is a cheater.

Curious at what point would he not be a cheater?

[jay adams]

Georges St. Pierre and Dan Henderson will be fighting next month. Dan Henderson Is on TRT and there's been a lot of controversy. I wonder what will be said if Dan Henderson wins?

Its def not natural but what can you do? I wonder where GSP's levels are at. It def changes Dan Henderson's results after training camp. Very hard to draw a line on this one.

[powerlifterty16]

Curious at what point would he not be a cheater?

if his t is deficient, and he goes to the 1000 level per normal trt protocols.
a guy with normal t, taking trt to get more competitive is clearly a cheater, but we can disagree

[powerlifterty16]

Georges St. Pierre and Dan Henderson will be fighting next month. Dan Henderson Is on TRT and there's been a lot of controversy. I wonder what will be said if Dan Henderson wins?

Its def not natural but what can you do? I wonder where GSP's levels are at. It def changes Dan Henderson's results after training camp. Very hard to draw a line on this one.

dan might have had low t. he is a little old now. idk if he's ever done roids. is george st pierre old too? I dont think dan is abusing it, but i could be wrong.

[Bonaparte]

Enough about the UFC! You guys are completely derailing this thread.

OP, you would not be "natural" if you're using synthetic test. Even if you're just keeping yourself in the normal range, that is probably an advantage over other guys your age. Especially since exogenous test levels don't suffer when dieting, overtraining, lacking sleep, etc...

[powerlifterty16]

Enough about the UFC! You guys are completely derailing this thread.

OP, you would not be "natural" if you're using synthetic test. Even if you're just keeping yourself in the normal range, that is probably an advantage over other guys your age. Especially since exogenous test levels don't suffer when dieting, overtraining, lacking sleep, etc...

cant all those things kill exogenous t? aka make it not absorb as well?

[Java Man]

I dont consider you a natural bodybuilder since you've used gear in the past so at this point the other question doesn't matter.

I' do consider guys who NEED trt and WHO STAY in the physiologic range to still be natural. If a guy is at 300 tt h can't be penalized imo for taking trt and going up to 1000..i think going to 1100 or 1200 is not natural anymore even though it's in the normal range...just my opinion.

I agree with that first statement in that a person who had used aas or gh etc. in the past is forever augmented. They can never claim to be natural after that. However, every contest has rules and as long as all competitors abide by those rules I'd have to say that's a fair contest imo so if whatever you've done in the past fits within the rules of your contest youre ok morally.

[Java Man]

If guys who have ever used steroids shouldn't be allowed to compete in the UFC or any pro sport for that matter, you're going to have to ban sports.

Lmfao. So true!

[Metalject]

LOL @ some of the cynical postings here. I tend not to comment on a person’s journey unless I’ve attempted to make it myself. OP is not making any money at this. Getting back into a sport or hobby that you enjoy comes down to a quality of life issue first & foremost. Why the need to dissect & analyze it?

Life is a sequence of personal decisions & resulting outcomes. We can’t undo past decisions, as we wouldn’t be the person we are today. So as long as you’ve become a productive individual then perception after the fact is really pointless if you think about it…

Good post.^^^

As for being on TRT and competing in a natural bodybuilding show, I wouldn't think too many natural organizations would allow it. I know if I ran a natural show I wouldn't be too crazy about the idea because it opens the door for cheating too easily. And I say that as someone who thinks butt loads of steroids and bodybuilding go hand-in-hand.

BTW, Mr.Lifty, what if a guy has 600+ Total T but his Free is 7, would you still say the same? Total test is meaningless and all things in life are not black and white. More importantly, steroids own sports, it's why the exist and without them every major sport as we know it would be done.

[powerlifterty16]

Good post.^^^

As for being on TRT and competing in a natural bodybuilding show, I wouldn't think too many natural organizations would allow it. I know if I ran a natural show I wouldn't be too crazy about the idea because it opens the door for cheating too easily. And I say that as someone who thinks butt loads of steroids and bodybuilding go hand-in-hand.

BTW, Mr.Lifty, what if a guy has 600+ Total T but his Free is 7, would you still say the same? Total test is meaningless and all things in life are not black and white. More importantly, steroids own sports, it's why the exist and without them every major sport as we know it would be done.

when i said total t i jsut said that because most guys like to think in terms of ttoal t..my point is, if the guy has 600 total t, and 16 free t(9-26) and he doesnt have symptoms of t deficiency, and wants to use trt to cheat his way to victories, then i dont support that.

[dreadnok89]

LOL @ some of the cynical postings here. I tend not to comment on a person’s journey unless I’ve attempted to make it myself. OP is not making any money at this. Getting back into a sport or hobby that you enjoy comes down to a quality of life issue first & foremost. Why the need to dissect & analyze it?

Life is a sequence of personal decisions & resulting outcomes. We can’t undo past decisions, as we wouldn’t be the person we are today. So as long as you’ve become a productive individual then perception after the fact is really pointless if you think about it…

Why is this such a good point? It has nothing to do with competing naturally. And if you were juiced out when you were competing then you were never natural!

But who cares anyway. Also I wasn't talking to you specifically powerlifterty. I WS making a general statement

[kelkel]

if his t is deficient, and he goes to the 1000 level per normal trt protocols.
a guy with normal t, taking trt to get more competitive is clearly a cheater, but we can disagree

Wasn't disagreeing. Just curious. Remember the Test scale on BW is partially a product of insurance companies to determine who they cover....

[Low Testosterone]

Wasn't disagreeing. Just curious. Remember the Test scale on BW is partially a product of insurance companies to determine who they cover....

Very true. The Free T range of 9-26 powerlifty quoted is a great example of an insurance derived range. No sane doctor is going to call anything below 15 in range or in a healthy range.

[powerlifterty16]

Very true. The Free T range of 9-26 powerlifty quoted is a great example of an insurance derived range. No sane doctor is going to call anything below 15 in range or in a healthy range.

my doctor told me ''your free t is 6? i see people with 2, you're overrreacting'' sad thing is, he couldnt even find my free t until i pointed it out.

[Low Testosterone]

my doctor told me ''your free t is 6? i see people with 2, you're overrreacting'' sad thing is, he couldnt even find my free t until i pointed it out.

That's like walking into the doctors office and saying "doctor, I've been shot! See, here's the bullet hole." From there he looks at you and says "I see people with 10 bullet holes, you're overreacting."