Maintaining natural testosterone production and HRT

[61er]

I've read many posts stating that exogenous testosterone results in a complete shutdown of natural production of testosterone. But that's not correct if one is also using HCG, right?

Here's a snippet from the main sticky on HCG:

"Purpose: Testosterone replacement therapy results in decreased serum gonadotropins and intratesticular testosterone, and impairs spermatogenesis, leading to azoospermia in 40% of patients. However, intratesticular testosterone can be maintained during testosterone replacement therapy with co-administration of low dose human chorionic gonadotropin, which may support continued spermatogenesis in patients on testosterone replacement therapy."

[Bonaparte]

It will keep your testes functioning to some degree, but it's a temporary crutch.
And though the testes are still kinda working, the hypothalamus and pituitary aren't secreting GnRH and gonadotropins (respectively). So it isn't like you can avoid the whole negative feedback loop with hcg.

[Metalject]

I understand that a lot of people worry about shutting down their natural test production with TRT, I get it but it's not really something you need to worry about. Think about it, if you truly have low testosterone you're not making enough on your own anyway...your natural production isn't doing you any good to begin with.

I also think it's important to point out HCG will not do anything for everyone. There seems to be a prevailing thought online that you MUST use HCG or your TRT is crap. I agree that HCG is very useful but if your testicles do not work all the HCG in the world will not do anything for you.

[61er]

It will keep your testes functioning to some degree, but it's a temporary crutch.
And though the testes are still kinda working, the hypothalamus and pituitary aren't secreting GnRH and gonadotropins (respectively). So it isn't like you can avoid the whole negative feedback loop with hcg.

Thanks for your comment. My hunch is that HCG has had some moderate impact, but it didn't happen quickly. Last Spring, after a long stretch on gel and pellets, I tried HCG mono therapy for four months. T fell to pre-treatment levels. But since re-introducing gell -- at half the dosage, while continuing HCG -- I feel great. Maybe HCG has finally kicked in and is contributing some natural production? A comforting thought...

[61er]

I understand that a lot of people worry about shutting down their natural test production with TRT, I get it but it's not really something you need to worry about. Think about it, if you truly have low testosterone you're not making enough on your own anyway...your natural production isn't doing you any good to begin with.

Thanks for your comment. No worries, really, just comfort that the testes continue to play a role in hormone balance.

[Docd187123]

I understand that a lot of people worry about shutting down their natural test production with TRT, I get it but it's not really something you need to worry about. Think about it, if you truly have low testosterone you're not making enough on your own anyway...your natural production isn't doing you any good to begin with.

I also think it's important to point out HCG will not do anything for everyone. There seems to be a prevailing thought online that you MUST use HCG or your TRT is crap. I agree that HCG is very useful but if your testicles do not work all the HCG in the world will not do anything for you.

There's more to HCG than just what it does to your testicles. You realize you have LH receptors outside the testicles right?

[Metalject]

There's more to HCG than just what it does to your testicles. You realize you have LH receptors outside the testicles right?

Let's say a guy has his blood work done and his LH reading comes back in at 10 mIU/ML. His testosterone levels come back low, the number itself doesn't matter, just pick numbers you consider low. In this case, what would HCG do for this particular man?

[Docd187123]

Let's say a guy has his blood work done and his LH reading comes back in at 10 mIU/ML. His testosterone levels come back low, the number itself doesn't matter, just pick numbers you consider low. In this case, what would HCG do for this particular man?

It would also activate the LH receptors OUTSIDE the testicles....

[Metalject]

It would also activate the LH receptors OUTSIDE the testicles....

Why would it? He's already producing tons of LH naturally and it's not activating anything? Why would HCG be any different? And I'm honestly asking. I've asked this question for years and no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.

[Docd187123]

Why would it? He's already producing tons of LH naturally and it's not activating anything? Why would HCG be any different? And I'm honestly asking. I've asked this question for years and no one has ever been able to give me a straight answer.

What happens to LH levels when this person is put on TRT or runs a cycle?

[Metalject]

What happens to LH levels when this person is put on TRT or runs a cycle?

They go to nothing, I understand that part. What I'm asking is if a ton of LH wasn't doing anything before, why would something that basically mimics LH be any different?

[dreadnok89]

What happens to LH levels when this person is put on TRT or runs a cycle?

What does it matter? Not being rude but wondering like metal. Chlomid is seeming a better route nowadays

[Docd187123]

They go to nothing, I understand that part. What I'm asking is if a ton of LH wasn't doing anything before, why would something that basically mimics LH be any different?

Someone who has normal LH levels won't need HCG bc as you point out they're making it naturally. HCG's benefits are seen when LH is suppressed from a cycle or from TRT. You're example is basically someone suffering from primary hypogonadism. His LH levels are fine but his testes are unresponsive. At this stage HCG won't have any added benefit. Now consider if this person gets put on TRT. His LH will be suppressed. LH has receptors in the adrenal glands. It helps maintain adrenal function. What would you have this person do? Not use HCG bc his testes are unresponsive? Well what about the other areas that have LH receptors OUTSIDE the testes? I think you're only honking about it in terms of testicular benefits which is only one aspect. Dr. Crisler also finds it helps with libido which can be a quality of life issue as well.

What does it matter? Not being rude but wondering like metal. Chlomid is seeming a better route nowadays

It matters bc we're not using HCG when someone has normal or elevated LH levels. We're only using HCG when those levels are suppressed due to TRT or a cycle. Clomid has nothing on HCG in this regard. Clomid can increase endogenous LH but clomid isn't powerful enough to overcome the negative feedback inhibition on LH at times like these. HCG is a direct analog so you don't have to worry about it over lowering supraphysiological hormone levels....you're injecting something that's almost identical to LH anyway.

[Metalject]

Someone who has normal LH levels won't need HCG bc as you point out they're making it naturally. HCG's benefits are seen when LH is suppressed from a cycle or from TRT. You're example is basically someone suffering from primary hypogonadism. His LH levels are fine but his testes are unresponsive. At this stage HCG won't have any added benefit. Now consider if this person gets put on TRT. His LH will be suppressed. LH has receptors in the adrenal glands. It helps maintain adrenal function. What would you have this person do? Not use HCG bc his testes are unresponsive? Well what about the other areas that have LH receptors OUTSIDE the testes? I think you're only honking about it in terms of testicular benefits which is only one aspect. Dr. Crisler also finds it helps with libido which can be a quality of life issue as well.

Congratulations, you have successfully repeated what I already said.
The internet, lol!

[Docd187123]

Congratulations, you have successfully repeated what I already said.
The internet, lol!

I never said a healthy male needs HCG. I said one that is on a cycle or on TRT needs it REGARDLESS of his original LH levels bc those LH levels go down the tube on a cycle or TRT. Forgive me if I'm not understanding where the confusion on your part is coming from.

[Metalject]

I never said a healthy male needs HCG. I said one that is on a cycle or on TRT needs it REGARDLESS of his original LH levels bc those LH levels go down the tube on a cycle or TRT. Forgive me if I'm not understanding where the confusion on your part is coming from.

All I'm saying is that a man who has very high LH levels but low testosterone (primary) when he starts TRT (testosterone) giving him HCG isn't going to do anything for him. It won't hurt but it won't help. The man has already been 100% unresponsive to LH - adding something that mimics LH won't make any difference. That's all I'm saying. So to my point - if a man is primary, full blown primary, HCG will not help. Therefore, the saying that HCG is a staple in all TRT plans is false.

[Docd187123]

All I'm saying is that a man who has very high LH levels but low testosterone (primary) when he starts TRT (testosterone) giving him HCG isn't going to do anything for him. It won't hurt but it won't help. The man has already been 100% unresponsive to LH - adding something that mimics LH won't make any difference. That's all I'm saying. So to my point - if a man is primary, full blown primary, HCG will not help. Therefore, the saying that HCG is a staple in all TRT plans is false.

I see the confusion now ok. Let me explain it like this.

Your first assumption here is that LH only acts in the testes in the Ledyig cells. This is false. There are LH receptors in the adrenal glands among other places as I alluded to earlier. Your sole focus here is on the testes so you're missing the big picture. Yes the HCG won't do much for the testes and endogenous test production but no one argued otherwise. But you're ignoring the fact that LH, and it's analog HCG, can still serve a beneficial purpose by maintaining adrenal function in the case of your example and any TRT patient, anyone blasting and cruising, anyone cycling, etc.

The other assumption you're making is that testosterone is the only hormone worth considering when talking about HCG use. This is a direct quote from Dr. Crisler:

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

HCG simtulate p450scc which is responsible for steroidogenesis. NOT just testosterone but MANY other natural hormones your body makes. TRT, even for your primary hypo example, is about restoring health and quality of life NOT solely testosterone levels. By neglecting HCG you're prohibiting your body from optimal production of other endogenous hormones that you won't be injecting on TRT. The following are two charts showing some of the hormones HCG will help produce:

[Metalject]

I understand what you're saying in the post above but I don't know if you're following what I'm referring to and I'm not sure how else to say it. Maybe I'll think of something.

[Docd187123]

I understand what you're saying in the post above but I don't know if you're following what I'm referring to and I'm not sure how else to say it. Maybe I'll think of something.

You're saying the guy in the example has balls that don't work and HCG is t needed bc he's got plenty of natural LH but his balls are desensitized to the LH. I'm saying that's only looking at natural testosterone production. Once he's put on TRT his LH is suppressed so it doesn't matter if he can make it naturally or not, it's going to be suppressed via TRT. Even if his balls are unresponsive to making testosterone, there are plenty of other hormones LH concentrations are responsible for that are ignored by not taking HCG. It's not solely about testosterone or how responsive the balls are.

[Metalject]

You're saying the guy in the example has balls that don't work and HCG is t needed bc he's got plenty of natural LH but his balls are desensitized to the LH. I'm saying that's only looking at natural testosterone production. Once he's put on TRT his LH is suppressed so it doesn't matter if he can make it naturally or not, it's going to be suppressed via TRT. Even if his balls are unresponsive to making testosterone, there are plenty of other hormones LH concentrations are responsible for that are ignored by not taking HCG. It's not solely about testosterone or how responsive the balls are.

OK, I understand what you're saying now. Thanks for clearing it up.

[wellshii]

The body is an odd thing,hcg might actually work despite the bodies natural LH not stimulating the balls. It's a mimicker,so it's new.Body responds to new things. Just like when a child listens to a family friend but not you.

[booku]

I am secondary, and do not run hcg. This has always been my biggest concern. I feel good though, and everything seems to be dialed in. My HDL cholesterol did come back low, does hcg benefit this in any way?