LEF, Shippen and Crisler says Androgel is better

[CobraMustangSVT]

Hi,
I was reading around and found this: http://www.lef.org/featured-articles...ttack-Risk.htm

"Of men receiving testosterone therapy in the study by Vigen et al., only 1.1% were prescribed testosterone gel, 63.3% received patches, and 35.7% received injections. Commonly prescribed testosterone injectables can produce a peak, often supraphysiologic, level of testosterone that then declines slowly to an often subnormal level in 1 to 2 weeks.20,21 This "peak and trough" effect is an unnatural rhythm for testosterone. A testosterone cream or gel, on the other hand, gradually releases into the bloodstream, which is more analogous to the natural secretion of testosterone by the testes. More than a third of men in this analysis received testosterone injections, which may cause unusual fluctuations in testosterone levels. In addition, testosterone injectables are comprised of non-bioidentical testosterone compounds. Life Extension advocates that men use a daily bioidentical testosterone gel (eg, Androgel® or compounded version) to avoid unnatural fluctuations in testosterone levels."

I also read "Testosterone for Life" by Morgentaler and he says that he starts people on gels and reserves injections for people who can't achieve good levels with gel.

In Shippen's book "The Testosterone Syndrome," he said, "Injections. This is still the most common method of replacing testosterone, and it is infinitely the worst."

Dr Crisler stated, "Testosterone Gels and Creams. The only way to go, in my professional opinion....."

Here's a sticky here that states that gels might be better too: http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...need-know.html

I did research on various forums and most of the complaints are about Androgel (not achieving desired levels, fear of rubbing off on family, too expensive, etc.) but there is such a stark difference between what I read on forums and what I read from doctors. I'm on injections but I can get Androgel for free from the VA.

What do you guys think?

[jasondd1]

I know Crisler has changed his mind. Gels creams didn't work on me

[CobraMustangSVT]

I know Crisler has changed his mind. Gels creams didn't work on me

Good point. Shippen's book is from 2007 and Morgenthaler's book is from 2009. The LEF quote is recent though and was in response to the VA's study.

It seems like injecting smaller amounts twice a week or more might help mitigate some of these concerns about the injections.

[2Sox]

If you can get Androgel for free, I'd say go for it! I loved Androgel, but it was just too expensive. My copay was $175/month for 2 tubes. I had to use 3-4 pumps a day to achieve the level and feeling I wanted. For a 10mL vial of T Cyp I pay $42 and it lasts me almost 3 months.

One thing to keep in mind: Androgel seems to lose it's efficacy on many men over time. If you turn out to be one of them, there is always injections. Also, DHT levels are higher on gels - which many like because it makes for a higher libido, but it also increases the chance of greater hair loss.

[kelkel]

Crisler uses injections along with daily low dose HCG.

[jimmyinkedup]

Crisler uses injections along with daily low dose HCG.

I have been reading and hearing more and more about this daily low dose hcg protocol. Isnt it like 100ius/day or something?

[2Sox]

I have been reading and hearing more and more about this daily low dose hcg protocol. Isnt it like 100ius/day or something?

I just started it last week. So far I really like it.

[jasondd1]

Crisler uses injections along with daily low dose HCG.

Is 100 iu a day better than 250iu 3 times a week?

[thisAngelBites]

Crisler uses injections along with daily low dose HCG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98LOFQwUGA

Yep, here's Crisler showing how to do subcutaneous injection.

[CobraMustangSVT]

I just started it last week. So far I really like it.

This sounds like a good idea.

How does it feel any different than your prior protocol?

What was the prior protocol?

[Times Roman]

Hi,
I was reading around and found this: Response to Media Reports Associating Testosterone Treatment with Greater Heart Attack Risk

"Of men receiving testosterone therapy in the study by Vigen et al., only 1.1% were prescribed testosterone gel, 63.3% received patches, and 35.7% received injections. Commonly prescribed testosterone injectables can produce a peak, often supraphysiologic, level of testosterone that then declines slowly to an often subnormal level in 1 to 2 weeks.20,21 This "peak and trough" effect is an unnatural rhythm for testosterone. A testosterone cream or gel, on the other hand, gradually releases into the bloodstream, which is more analogous to the natural secretion of testosterone by the testes. More than a third of men in this analysis received testosterone injections, which may cause unusual fluctuations in testosterone levels. In addition, testosterone injectables are comprised of non-bioidentical testosterone compounds. Life Extension advocates that men use a daily bioidentical testosterone gel (eg, Androgel® or compounded version) to avoid unnatural fluctuations in testosterone levels."

I also read "Testosterone for Life" by Morgentaler and he says that he starts people on gels and reserves injections for people who can't achieve good levels with gel.

In Shippen's book "The Testosterone Syndrome," he said, "Injections. This is still the most common method of replacing testosterone, and it is infinitely the worst."

Dr Crisler stated, "Testosterone Gels and Creams. The only way to go, in my professional opinion....."

Here's a sticky here that states that gels might be better too: http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...need-know.html

I did research on various forums and most of the complaints are about Androgel (not achieving desired levels, fear of rubbing off on family, too expensive, etc.) but there is such a stark difference between what I read on forums and what I read from doctors. I'm on injections but I can get Androgel for free from the VA.

What do you guys think?

Here's what I think.

These are obviously educated, experienced and well respected people.

And I will not disparage their opinion.

But I will give a slightly different perspective.

No administrative protocol is perfect.

With weekly injections, blood serum levels on a daily basis are fairly stable, but change over the course of a week.
With non injectables (patches/creams), blood serum levels are fairly stable over the course of a week, but change over the course of a day.

other things to consider with non injectibles:

*much more expensive than injectables on a mg per mg basis
*daily administration is more difficult in a non routine situation (traveling, for example)
*chance of cross contamination to family members is a concern (although I've recently heard a counter argument that it is not as bad as once thought)
*concerns over bias due to huge profits these non injectable companies possess, and the impact this popularity on the opinions of these knowledgeable individuals. This means that injectables have a very high efficiency rate, although we see nothing on TV for this approach, since injecting isn't very popular.

My advice? Follow the money! Who benefits from this advice? More men are willing to give TRT a try if a non injectable, and the marketing departments are designed to maximize sales.

Proof?

Injectables are equally as valid a form of administration. So why no counter arguments in the medical industry?

[kelkel]

Is 100 iu a day better than 250iu 3 times a week?

That is subjective and only you can answer that by trying it.

[jay adams]

I was getting sensitive nipples about eight hours after my 250 iu injections of hcg (which I know isn't the worst thing but bugged the hell out of me). Now doing 100 a day and no more sensitivity. For me, controlling estrogen spikes is the main benefit.

[APIs]

Most people have an automatic fear of injecting themselves and it does have some negative connotations associated with it. To most here it’s no big deal 2x week and preferable IMO to applying a gel every morning…