Soreness and Growth

[davesah1]

Quick question
So when you go to the gym and break your muscles down then subsequently get sore, are you growing while your sore or repairing? Does the growth come after the soreness via musclular adaptation to the stress load or is there really no correlation. For example, say your chest is sore for 2 days has it grown or is it still repairing itself? When it's not sore anymore has it grown or is it now growing?

I try to lift so my muscle is no longer sore or the soreness is negligible on the 3rd morning after training and then use it again 2 days later. I hit a musle group every 5 days or so.

All the reading I've done is contradictory to one another....I have made gains training 6 days a week consistently, but strength was never on the rise over the years. Is this because of CNS stress or shitty genetics or both? If I wait over a week to train the same bodypart its a bit stronger, but I've noticed, for arms especially, its begins to look flatter and just all around crappier.

I'm going to try and lower the volume and simply stimulate the "anabolic response" in the muscle and not do much more damage so recovery is quick and growth will occur. There should also be less stress on CNS bc of less volume

If this doesnt do it, I'm going to opt for going balls to the wall and taking over a week off for most bodyparts with 2 rest days a week.

When life gives you mixed bullshit, you separate it yourself.

[600@50]

Don't over think this. After a workout the muscle is damaged. With proper nutrition and rest it will repair itself and hopefully the repair will be stronger thereby resulting in growth and increased strength. As far as how many rest days between hitting the muscle again.......This is such an individual thing. Age, quality of rest, nutrition, which muscle group was worked and other variables need to be taken into account in determining the amount of rest you need. You may need 2 days rest this week but due to outside factors going on you may need 4 or 5 days next month. Be flexible and pay attention to how you feel and you'll be able to adjust accordingly.

And just because you lower volume doesn't mean it's easier on your CNS. A properly done short intense workout can wipe your CNS out for a while. You may even not be sore a couple of days after working out and feel fine but when you get back in the gym your workout sucks. The CNS hasn't recovered yet. Sometimes I'll need a full week between a super intense workout before training that muscle again.

Once again......pay attention to how you feel and I'd even say always err on the side of extra rest. In the long run your body will thank you for it.

[Buster Brown]

^^^^^^^^Excellent explanation ! I think we have all tried to find the magic workout sequence/split over the years. For me at 44 it's the same as in my 20's. I just do better all around training every body part once a week. I am envious of the guys who are genetically gifted, etc.... To train each body part twice a week and grow but it just ain't me.

[jusinsowa]

I have over 20yrs of lifting and have always trained each bodypart once a week except for calfs an abs. If there is a bodypart that is lagging behind then hit it twice. But in my years of experience and many of my friends have competed and if you read the pros workouts the majority if them train each once per week. If you hit the muscle hard enough it will take close to a week to recoup , if you are easily able to train the same muscle in a few days than your not hitting it hard enough.

[SEOINAGE]

I have over 20yrs of lifting and have always trained each bodypart once a week except for calfs an abs. If there is a bodypart that is lagging behind then hit it twice. But in my years of experience and many of my friends have competed and if you read the pros workouts the majority if them train each once per week. If you hit the muscle hard enough it will take close to a week to recoup , if you are easily able to train the same muscle in a few days than your not hitting it hard enough.

I disagree. Ever think about a wave pattern for recovery? Look at olympic lifters they almost never train at 100%, neither do powerlifters. In fact powerlifters deload in order to get to that point, usually 10 days out hit a squat opener and 7 days out a bench opener, and that isn't supposed to be heavy comparatively, so they are usually resting a bit longer if you think about it.

You don't need a full week to recoup, sometimes it takes two weeks for a muscle to recover anyways, the important part is being able to perform decently. I mean if you are so sore, or so hammered you can't do even a fraction of what you could with some rest then that is too much for you.

[600@50]

There's times when twice a week for a body part is fine. Other times depending on intensity maybe every 4-6 days. Sometimes once a week will be all you can stand.

Take the term "routine" and toss it out. Be willing to try new things and be able to change week to week if necessary.

[Chicagotarsier]

Good posts above.

If you train heavy recovery is very different to those they train reps. In the end the CNS is the key to how quick you recover.

Pro lifters sometimes take a YEAR to recover from a single rep due to CNS "strain". This is crazy levels of weight.

What I personally see is I work a muscle at 0 hour. Muscle is pumped till +4 to +6 hour then goes into a non-pumped state. At +38 to +48 that muscle then returns to pumped state at which I say it is "recovered". When I set a PR I lose my strength level for 2 weeks on that muscle minimum. Achieving hypertrophy via reps works best for me.

[davesah1]

I noticed that with high intensity and high reps the muscle stays "swole" for longer, but could this be due to inflammation from excessive damage? Currently I'm trading off a high intensity and high volume/duration workout (10-20 reps) for a high intensity, lower volume style lift with heavier weight (8 rep range + taken to absolute failure with a gym buddy). The strength gains have been great compared to beating the muscle like a dead horse and I dont feel like shit the next day, just get a deeper yet less painful soreness. Is CNS responsible for hypertrophy, bc the saying goes bodybuiders arent "weight lifters." Maybe its because I'm deloading now. This seems like one of those you gotta try everything and see whats best for you things. There's so many bro-science opinions on these matter by massive meatheads on youtube. You got CT fletcher saying he works out arms everyday and Dorian Yates( much better source but was on way more drugs and probably better genetics) saying you need your rest and to train 4-5 days a week. I feel like at least for arms they grew more with frequency but with frequency came minimal strength gains. But most of the largest Mr. Olympia's were the strongest. Coleman, Yates etc. Thanks for all the opinions guys.

You guys ever read that article on DC training? Opened my mind to less might be more.

[Schwarzenegger]

I go by feeling in terms of routines and volumes/weight load/which body part to train. U gotta listen to ur body.

CNS is a bitch sometimes to recover depending on how hard u blast it and which body part.

Although, I have noticed that just 10 mins on the bike after a workout flushes out the lactic acid and gets the circulation going. I don't usually feel like death after going super heavy if I do that.

FYI I hate cardio hah. Only reason I started doing it cuz my workout partner convinced me each time. Def works tho

[hellomycognomen]

You have to listen to your own body and what its telling you.
The number of days rest required is diff for everyone.

If you do full body workouts for example then rest the following day(s), your body is in total "rest/recovery" mode.

If you do a split workout, your body is doing both (breaking down and trying to repair) so it needs to work harder.

Just because you alternate muscle groups in a split does not mean that previously worked muscles are not being activated while trying to recover.

Bottom line is diff workouts stimulate people differently. This is why experience, trial and error, finding out what works/does not work, for you specifically takes time.

Additionally you should not underestimate the ability of the human body to adapt.
"Over-training" is IMO a non issue. When in doubt --> workout.

[hellomycognomen]

I would also suggest to yo the idea that your muscles don't care how much weight you push or how many reps you do.

They only respond to stress, how that stress is applied is irrelevant.

For example have you ever instead of counting reps tried to reach a specific time under tension goal?

Believe me, even 30lbs dumbbells doing chest press feel heavy as hell when you maintain slow rep tension for 60 seconds +

Goal of every workout should be to stimulate maximum muscle fibers with last set going to failure (if possible). Adding drop sets for even further failure points. By doing this, there will be no doubt you have fully stressed the group and will thus stimulate maximum growth.

Rep counts and weight used is all ego IMO.

[davesah1]

I would also suggest to yo the idea that your muscles don't care how much weight you push or how many reps you do.

They only respond to stress, how that stress is applied is irrelevant.

For example have you ever instead of counting reps tried to reach a specific time under tension goal?

Believe me, even 30lbs dumbbells doing chest press feel heavy as hell when you maintain slow rep tension for 60 seconds +

Goal of every workout should be to stimulate maximum muscle fibers with last set going to failure (if possible). Adding drop sets for even further failure points. By doing this, there will be no doubt you have fully stressed the group and will thus stimulate maximum growth.

If were to hold age, genetics, and gear constant im just trying to see what works best for me. You only live once and hopefully I find it soon. I've done a lot of different things. Never upper/lower splits and push/pull/leg splits. I like being in the gym too much to take the amount of off days that are appropriate for those routines. I love the split routine. Never really looked into them that much either.

Rep counts and weight used is all ego IMO.

very valid points indeed man.

As far as time under tension, I usually use a 1-3-0 count do 8 reps comes out to about 32ish seconds + the extra forced reps and negatives. There has to be a point of diminishing returns when working out to a degree. Does more damage necessarily mean more growth? hmm
Can a muscle keep getting bigger using the weight same weight for a year?
Should one put some effort to progress as far as strength is concerned to gain more mass?
The only taste I ever had of overtraining was when I worked out arms hard and long and went to the gym after 3 weeks and my muscles failed to contract after 3 sets. My weight dipped from 40 pounds DB curls to 20 in a flash. After this I took a step back and opted for the lowered workload.