New labs on Androgel, might switch back to injections

[CobraMustangSVT]

Hi,
Here are my newest labs on 3 pumps of Androgel 1.62 and 350iu's of hcg on M, W, and F.

Labcorp (7/2014)
Total t - 585 (348-1197)
Free t - 11.9 (8.7-25.1)
estrodial - 63.4 (7.6-42.6)
DHT - 78 (30-85)


For reference, my old labs on 2 pumps of Androgel and 250 iu's of hcg on M, W, F was

Quest (5/2014)
total testosterone : 489 (ref 241-827)
estradiol: 43 (ref < or = 39)

I'm not crazy about the free T. My problem is that if I go higher on the Androgel, my E will go up too. I could take an AI and drop the estrodial and that should raise my free t.

Or, I can go back to my old protocol of 50mg's of t on T and F while taking 250iu's of hcg on M, W, F. That setup worked but I just got so tired of sticking myself with these damn harpoons.



For reference, here are my old numbers on 60mg's of t cyp on T and F (120mg's total) with 250iu's of hcg on M, W, F

Quest 12/2013
total t - 1408 (250-1100)
free t - 357.6 (35-155)
DHT - 69 (16-79)
Estradiol - 84 (<=29)

I don't feel the high E. Even with I was at 84, I didn't feel it. I don't have any nipple problems, no water retention, no blood pressure or erection issues. If the doc didn't run the test, I wouldn't even know.

Should I leave the high E alone? I know that injections, especially split twice a week would drop down my DHT and E. At 120 a week, I was at 1408 T and 84 E. If I drop it down to 100 or even 80 a week, split, I'm guessing that would drop my T down to a safe range and my E would drop too

[2Sox]

It seems like you answered your own questions. At this point you could try what you propose.

From my experience, gels seem to return lab numbers that vary wildly from month to month. Shots return more stable numbers. Also, from my experience.

FYI: It's common knowledge that DHT levels are always greater on transdermals. The opposite for shots. This is also from my experience.

IMO, you're blessed that your high E2 levels don't bother you. The advice I've heard most often on the forum boils down to this: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I don't know what the long term effects of this level would be. You might want to look into it.

[kelkel]

Either add a couple more pumps of agel or go back to injections as your FT is to low. I was up to six pumps at one time but simply could not stand it any more. What a pain in the ass, imho.

I'd drop back to 50 x 2 or even 40 x 2 based on what your BW was at 60mg x 2. Learn to rotate injection sites and consider SQ as well. You also need to switch to a Sensitive E2 Assay as standard estradiol is geared toward women and tends to show a higher number, leading to more and often unnecessary use of AI's. Standard estradiol is simply not sensitive enough to be accurate for men. Retest and see where your at after a month or so and evaluate the need for an AI at this time. Some guys simply have to use one, whether you feel the effects of higher E or not. Remember high E's most harmful effects are internal and you don't see them coming.

When it comes to DHT stop worrying about it. DHT's a good thing and it's what makes you a man. The range for it is arbitrary. Main thing for you is to get your free T up and manage your E. Everything else will fall in place on it's own.

[jasondd1]

I agree with kelkel. Unless causing prostate problems high dht is good. Saw palmetto 450 mg twice a day can cure that though for most.

[CobraMustangSVT]

Thanks guys. I don't have any sides so I won't worry about it.

I'm going to focus more on the free T and estradiol. I'm going to drop my HCG dose back down to 250iu's and increase the Androgel to 4 pumps. Hopefully that does something. If not, then I just go back to gels.

[kelkel]

Thanks guys. I don't have any sides so I won't worry about it.

I'm going to focus more on the free T and estradiol. I'm going to drop my HCG dose back down to 250iu's and increase the Androgel to 4 pumps. Hopefully that does something. If not, then I just go back to gels.

Check BW in a month or so! Let us know on this thread please.

[OingoBoingo]

Or, I can go back to my old protocol of 50mg's of t on T and F while taking 250iu's of hcg on M, W, F. That setup worked but I just got so tired of sticking myself with these damn harpoons.

If you decide to go back to injecting and haven't done so already, you might consider subcutaneous.

[kelkel]

Remember you can mix your HCG right in with your T and just do it twice per week instead of three. Three shots are history this way.

[2Sox]

Either add a couple more pumps of agel or go back to injections as your FT is to low. I was up to six pumps at one time but simply could not stand it any more. What a pain in the ass, imho.

I'd drop back to 50 x 2 or even 40 x 2 based on what your BW was at 60mg x 2. Learn to rotate injection sites and consider SQ as well. You also need to switch to a Sensitive E2 Assay as standard estradiol is geared toward women and tends to show a higher number, leading to more and often unnecessary use of AI's. Standard estradiol is simply not sensitive enough to be accurate for men. Retest and see where your at after a month or so and evaluate the need for an AI at this time. Some guys simply have to use one, whether you feel the effects of higher E or not. Remember high E's most harmful effects are internal and you don't see them coming.

When it comes to DHT stop worrying about it. DHT's a good thing and it's what makes you a man. The range for it is arbitrary. Main thing for you is to get your free T up and manage your E. Everything else will fall in place on it's own.

I believe this is very good advice. Your comment on Estradiol is particularly important. OP's readings left me scratching my head - especially with the different reference ranges he posted - so I think it was good that you pointed out the difference between the standard and sensitive assays.

Something in the field just recently happened to me. A new technician at my doctor's took my blood last time. Even with the PA indicating the sensitive assay and my reminding her TWO times while she was drawing my blood, she STILL got it wrong. My estradiol came back at 76. I raised hell and the next time the PA was standing over her shoulder showing her the right way of doing things. Meanwhile, with 76, I felt just as good as the OP felt on 84. I should have caught that in his post.

[CobraMustangSVT]

Thanks alot guys. Great and thoughtful advice, as always.

I'm going to ask for a sensitive assay next time. I'm also going to drop back down to 250 iu's of HCG. I know KelKel told me to stay at 250 in an earlier post (the one where I was obessing over my nuts and felt they were going soft or shrinking) but I didn't listen and bumped it up anyway. By going to 350 iu's and 3 pumps at the same time, I don't know what bumped up my E2 (or even if that's an accurate number).

I'm going to 4 pumps and go back down to 250iu's of HCG. Then I'll re test in a month and see what happens.

[The_Crawfish]

Just to add to what somebody else said...About 6 weeks ago, taking the advice of some on here (2sox being one of them) I switched to subq. Man, talk about a piece of cake...almost zero pain (plucking a nose hair is 10x worse), no bruising, no or VERY little bleeding. It's great!

[2Sox]

Just to add to what somebody else said...About 6 weeks ago, taking the advice of some on here (2sox being one of them) I switched to subq. Man, talk about a piece of cake...almost zero pain (plucking a nose hair is 10x worse), no bruising, no or VERY little bleeding. It's great!

Good to hear it's working out for you. I only did IM once - and that was the first time I took a shot of T from my doctor. After that, it was always SQ because of the advice of many members on this forum. Where else could we learn such things and better our lives on TRT?

[The_Crawfish]

Definitely a great place for info...my doc says he even comes here now. Anxious to see what the BW says in a couple of weeks.

[kelkel]

Definitely a great place for info...my doc says he even comes here now. Anxious to see what the BW says in a couple of weeks.

Tell him to sign up and contribute. We'll teach him a few things.....

And yes, it is a great place.

[dreadnok89]

I would piss alot if my dht got high. Gels are notorious for that

[CobraMustangSVT]

I just got new labs on 4 pumps and 250 iu's of hcg 3x a week.

Total T - 838 (348-1197)
Free T - 19 (8.8-25.1)

The doc didn't check for E2. I'll have to go to my other doc for that.

[Lifted1]

numbers look a lot better man! as long as you feel good and are side free, you should be gtg

[davidtheman100]

Lots and lots of lawsuits against androgel distributors as of recently