318 test @ 25 years old. Can I run my first cycle?

[thefuture2014]

25.5 years old
6'4''
210lbs
~13% body fat

Just finished a natural cut (7 months!) which took me from 230 down to 193 a couple months ago. Took it nice and slow but I think it really messed up my test levels. My weight jumped up pretty quickly post contest, big part of that being my fault and eating too much. I've honestly felt depressed at times and my energy has been terrible.

I want to run my first cycle according to Austinite's "My first cycle" plan. So:
500mg Tst E a week
12 Weeks
HCG during and PCT to follow

Someone let me know what my concerns should be here and what to do! Thanks!

[kelkel]

Well, dieting can impact test levels but imho you should be much higher. Your LH level is phenomenal yet your T is still low. This can be indicative of testicular issues if your numbers do not return to normal. Any trauma or other issues to your boys in your past?

To be blunt, I'd hold off and figure things out first. If numbers don't come back up substantially than I'd see a doc (hot female one) and have them checked for injury, varicoceles, etc.

Welcome to the forum.

[thefuture2014]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I do have a varicocele on the left guy down low. Had it checked out about 5 years ago. Since I havent had any issues with it as far as pain goes, nothing ever has been done. Do you know what this would mean in the long term for me (i.e. natural test just always being low?)

[kelkel]

Call me psychic.

Long term low test levels suck the life out of you. You feel ok as that's all you're used to. Your total T is low. That means your free T is low as well. Your FT is what works for you. Most guys I know would be on TRT with a level that low. Everything would improve with restored test levels. Varicoceles can be fixed so start doing some research and get it done! Right now you're 25 with the T level of a 60 year old. F that.

Varicocele repair for low testosterone. [Curr Opin Urol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

[thefuture2014]

Well this is disheartening and explains a lot. I'll look into getting my varicocele repaired. Thanks for the help.

[RangerDanger830]

Call me psychic.

Long term low test levels suck the life out of you. You feel ok as that's all you're used to. Your total T is low. That means your free T is low as well. Your FT is what works for you. Most guys I know would be on TRT with a level that low. Everything would improve with restored test levels. Varicoceles can be fixed so start doing some research and get it done! Right now you're 25 with the T level of a 60 year old. F that.

Varicocele repair for low testosterone. [Curr Opin Urol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

The OP seems to think his diet caused the lower than normal Test levels. Would the presumed loss of a good amount of fat not negate most, if not all of the negative impact on test levels? Unless he was in a serious deficit I am not aware of how a cut can lower test levels. Usually I see quite the opposite. Am I missing something here?

[lucabratzi]

The OP seems to think his diet caused the lower than normal Test levels. Would the presumed loss of a good amount of fat not negate most, if not all of the negative impact on test levels? Unless he was in a serious deficit I am not aware of how a cut can lower test levels. Usually I see quite the opposite. Am I missing something here?

For me personally I've had my test go up 75ng once I was bulking. So yes I think a combination of cutting, and so much activity lowered test. My sleep was also horrible for about 4 months so that prob didn't help.

[thefuture2014]

I hate to speculate but I'm going to. Say I have a varicocelectomy and my natural test levels go up 100. I'm still left with very low test; do I become a candidate for TRT at that point? Does that become a lifetime dependency?

Basically I'm trying to figure out if cycling is ever in my future.

*I understand this is forum and I definitely plan to see a Doctor after getting these results

[thefuture2014]

The OP seems to think his diet caused the lower than normal Test levels. Would the presumed loss of a good amount of fat not negate most, if not all of the negative impact on test levels? Unless he was in a serious deficit I am not aware of how a cut can lower test levels. Usually I see quite the opposite. Am I missing something here?

For a male my size, I felt my diet/deficit was extreme in order to get to very low body fat percentages. For a decent amount of time, I had to cycle carbs all the way down to 100 (w/ 60F and 225P). Doesn't a large deficit like that over time affect metabolism and test? I thought it did, but I maybe I went into that cut with low test, which caused the difficulty in losing weight.

Contest prep affected my strength immensely and it still hasn't come back 2 months later. I could bench 305x1 and 185x25. Now I can maybe do 185x10. I went from squatting 315x5 to 200x5 being difficult.

[kelkel]

The OP seems to think his diet caused the lower than normal Test levels. Would the presumed loss of a good amount of fat not negate most, if not all of the negative impact on test levels? Unless he was in a serious deficit I am not aware of how a cut can lower test levels. Usually I see quite the opposite. Am I missing something here?

To the best of my knowledge diet can impact test levels both positively and negatively. Just not substantially. Proteins and carbs play a part. But imho the issue here is his varicocele.

[kelkel]

I hate to speculate but I'm going to. Say I have a varicocelectomy and my natural test levels go up 100. I'm still left with very low test; do I become a candidate for TRT at that point? Does that become a lifetime dependency?

Basically I'm trying to figure out if cycling is ever in my future.

*I understand this is forum and I definitely plan to see a Doctor after getting these results

But what if your level doubles? Risk / reward. Tough call. Definitely talk to several doctors. Update us here please.

[Joco71]

I was tested with low test a couple months ago. Not sure if this is relative but before that when I would really start to diet trying to get my weight down running calorie deficit. I would start to have erection problems and no libido. Which at the time I thought was weird. Because I thought if I lost the fat and was hitting the gym these things would get better. In my case it was the other way around. I noticed that several times over the last few years. That and having so much trouble with energy, drive and zest for life, ed-libido. I got my test level checked.

[Docd187123]

The OP seems to think his diet caused the lower than normal Test levels. Would the presumed loss of a good amount of fat not negate most, if not all of the negative impact on test levels? Unless he was in a serious deficit I am not aware of how a cut can lower test levels. Usually I see quite the opposite. Am I missing something here?

One factor to consider is that dietary fat is required for steroidogenesis which includes the production of testosterone. What happens when one cuts? Typically fats and carbs are drastically reduced while protein is kept high meaning there's much less dietary fat available to produce hormones from. Not sure how significant the impact of this is but it makes sense it would negatively effect testosterone production.

Another factor to consider, quoted from somewhere:

The lowering of leptin in response to calorie restriction does not appear to have any direct control over testosterone levels, but it can have an effect on the overall tone of the brain. This can indirectly influence testosterone levels. For instance, in a previous article discussing Neuropeptide Y (NPY) I alluded to one mechanism by which dieting can lower testosterone.


To understand it requires a quick digression. Simply, part of the brain (the hypothalamus) releases a hormone called gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). GnRH then stimulates another part of the brain (the pituitary) to release luteinizing hormone (LH). LH then travels down to the testes where it activates cells known as Leydig cells. It is these cells that manufacture and release testosterone under the command of LH. The diagram here from the Triazole™ write-up should help make this clear. Now back to NPY.

NPY is a hunger-stimulating hormone. Your body releases in during periods of low energy, such as unexpected long durations between meals (you know how this feels) and also more often during dieting when you are restricting calories or burning more through heightened activity. During these periods of low energy, NPY increases levels of a hormone called corticotrophin-releasing hormone (CRH), a hormone that ultimately stimulates cortisol release. CRH feeds back on GnRH neurons, slowing their rate, leading to reductions in their output. The net effect, of course, is less GnRH release, meaning less LH release meaning less testosterone creation. Bad times. Incidentally, this is also one of the reasons why periods of heavy stresses (from work or financial worries etc.) are typically accompanied by a lack of sex drive.

New research is suggesting another way that the body detects changes in energy balance for controlling testosterone, and it is a much more direct pathway.

[thefuture2014]

But what if your level doubles? Risk / reward. Tough call. Definitely talk to several doctors. Update us here please.

No problem. Going to see a urologist soon. I'll update this as things progress.

[thefuture2014]

One factor to consider is that dietary fat is required for steroidogenesis which includes the production of testosterone. What happens when one cuts? Typically fats and carbs are drastically reduced while protein is kept high meaning there's much less dietary fat available to produce hormones from. Not sure how significant the impact of this is but it makes sense it would negatively effect testosterone production.

Another factor to consider, quoted from somewhere:

Granted my carbs got all the way down to 100 at some points, fat never went below 60 grams, and protein was always at 225 grams. I had structured refeeds every week at 300-500 carbs. My LH level looks great according to my blood work. It was a long, extended cut but after 2 months of eating lots more food, I'm really starting to think my test shouldn't be this low because of that.

When I think back, I had symptoms of low T before doing that contest prep. Guess we'll see what happens once I visit a doctor.

I'm bummed because I wanted to run a cycle but this is much more important in the long run.

[Docd187123]

Granted my carbs got all the way down to 100 at some points, fat never went below 60 grams, and protein was always at 225 grams. I had structured refeeds every week at 300-500 carbs. My LH level looks great according to my blood work. It was a long, extended cut but after 2 months of eating lots more food, I'm really starting to think my test shouldn't be this low because of that.

When I think back, I had symptoms of low T before doing that contest prep. Guess we'll see what happens once I visit a doctor.

I'm bummed because I wanted to run a cycle but this is much more important in the long run.

I applaud you for having your priorities in place. Best luck and keep this thread updated

[kelkel]

No problem. Going to see a urologist soon. I'll update this as things progress.

Don't accept that your testosterone is at a normal level from whoever you see. It's BS.

[thefuture2014]

I applaud you for having your priorities in place. Best luck and keep this thread updated

Thank you, will do!

[thefuture2014]

Don't accept that your testosterone is at a normal level from whoever you see. It's BS.

Would you suggest a trip to the urologist for my varicocele, schedule a surgery, recover, then a trip to an endocrinologist to see how test levels have hopefully recovered?

[kelkel]

I'd just start searching for a doc in your area that has performed the procedure frequently. Uro, Endo, doesn't matter. Uro's IMHO seem better with hormones.
Make calls and interview staff first. Don't make blind appts and waste your time and theirs. Usually a nurse or someone will tell you if they do them routinely.

[RangerDanger830]

One factor to consider is that dietary fat is required for steroidogenesis which includes the production of testosterone. What happens when one cuts? Typically fats and carbs are drastically reduced while protein is kept high meaning there's much less dietary fat available to produce hormones from. Not sure how significant the impact of this is but it makes sense it would negatively effect testosterone production.

Another factor to consider, quoted from somewhere:

This makes sense, Leptin is the hunger regulating hormone right?

[Docd187123]

This makes sense, Leptin is the hunger regulating hormone right?

Leptin does a lot of things in the body like promote fat oxidation in skeletal muscle, helps initiate puberty, aids in fertility and immune function, etc. For our purposes it's mainly a hormone that tells the body how much fat you're carrying (anti-starvation hormone) as well as a mediator of long-term energy balance by suppressing food intake. As you get leaner leptin levels drop and as you get fatter leptin levels raise. There's also leptin sensitivity to consider as well: an obese individual normally has higher leptin levels which should signal increased satiety and therefor induce some weight loss but since these individuals become desensitized to leptin the higher levels don't do much to suppress appetite.

Ghrelin on the other hand is the hunger inducing hormone. When ghrelin levels rise it signals the body that you are hungry and should eat. Ghrelin is made in the stomach and once released in the blood, it goes to the hypothalamus and signals the brain to tell you to eat.

[thefuture2014]

Update for those who are curious. I saw a urologist and scheduled a surgery next week to repair a varicocele on both(!) sides of my testes. 3 months later I get to retest my blood levels and hopefully we will see higher Test levels.

He mentioned that most likely I was in the 800-1100 range as a 20 year old. Varicoceles age the testes rapidly, so over time (5 years) I've dipped all the way down to 318. If anything, this surgery will prevent my # from traveling south any further. He said I was on pace for getting shut down in a couple years.

I urge anyone else who has pain in their testes or notices enlarged veins down there to get checked out and take action before its too late. 5 years ago I was advised not to do anything (probably due to lack of research at the time) if there wasn't severe pain. Now I face the consequences but I'm hopeful to be on the right path at this point.

[thefuture2014]

Surgery was completed a month ago and I am on the road to full recovery.

I have determined in my mind that I am still going to hop on Test for a first cycle. The urologist said there is a chance my levels wont go up at all even with the surgery and I cant stand to live with 318 test any longer. It really is hindering my love for lifting weights and affecting many other areas of my life.

Does anyone know an appropriate wait time before I hop on cycle?

[ojm3]

Bro you need TRT. If I were you id start researching doctors in your area that can help you. With your levels already documented as low, and having a surgery on both testicles your probably a subject for TRT. A doctor IMHO is going to help you the most. He might even put you on a pharm grade regimen.

[thefuture2014]

I'd just start searching for a doc in your area that has performed the procedure frequently. Uro, Endo, doesn't matter. Uro's IMHO seem better with hormones.
Make calls and interview staff first. Don't make blind appts and waste your time and theirs. Usually a nurse or someone will tell you if they do them routinely.

Thoughts on my current situation? Thanks.

[Lee_1978]

I'm not too sure if you should start a cycle so soon after surgery. IMO, it would be better to wait and see if your Test levels rise and stabilise before contemplating AAS.

Interestingly, I had my Test levels checked during a natty cut earlier this year and the result was 769 ng/dl. I had further BW done two months ago and my Test reading was 550 ng/dl, bearing in mind I'm on a slow bulk now.

Yeah, baffling, right?