First time cycle please give any suggestions...

[jrogan]

I am getting ready to start a cycle for my first time and I have done a lot of research... Please let me know if you see anything I should change.


Testosterone E 500mg per week /12 weeks
Danabol 30mg per day / 6 weeks
Novadex 10mg per day /12 weeks

I will use this after my last cycle with testosterone
Clomid 50mg per day /4 weeks
HCG 1500IU per week /4 weeks

My stats: 6'2" 170LBS Age:34

Diet:
Calories per day 5250
Protein: 180g
BCAS’s: 10g

Wake-up: 40g Whey protein, multivitamin
Morning: Egg whites, Oats, Grains, wheat, 1/2 gallon water fish-oil 2-3g CLA
Pre-lunch: Nuts, bananas, apples ¼ gallon water
Lunch: 1/2lbs salmon, asparagus, peaches, brown rice 1/2 gallon water
Pre-workout: NO-Boost-Whey protein 40g, creatine 4g, beta-alanine 2g, BCAA’s 5g, Betaine 3g
(Workout)
Post-workout: Whey Protein 40g, Casein Protein 20g, creatine 4g, beta-alanine 2g, BCAA’s 5g, Betaine 3g
Pre-dinner: Nuts, bananas, apples ¼ gallon water
Dinner: 1-2lbs Chicken, broccoli, backed potato (no butter, no sourcream), 16 oz fat free milk
Bed: Casein Protein 40g

[Grymreefer]

I can tell you that Nolvadex is anti-estrogen in a sense that it a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist but it is classified as a SERM (selective estrogen reuptake modulator) Obviously you have not done your research if you are not going to use an AI on cycle. I would save the nolvadex or clomid for your pct. Clomid and Nolva compete with real estrogen for the estrogen receptor. I'm sure the vets will come and help you when they are awake, but I would hold off and reevaluate what you are going to do. You have no AI (aromatase inhibitor) in your protocol and your using testosterone which has a high affinity for aromatizing to estrogen and leading to unwanted estrogenic side effects.

Also, if this is your first cycle you should not be using more than one compound until you learn how your body responds. Something can go wrong and you will then be left with figuring out which compound is causing which side affect.

I'd advice you read some stickies on the site. Like all the vets say...educate before you medicate.

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...rst-cycle.html This may be very beneficial for you.

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...le-swifto.html And this will also help.

If your 6' 2'' and only 170 pounds. The first thing you should do is check your diet. AAS will not overcome a bad diet. It is only there to further enhance an already proper diet.

http://forums.steroid.com/diet-nutri...formation.html read this. This website will surprise you with how much information it has to offer and the community is full of gurus. Stick around and learn something. You will be happy you did. I was in the same boat as you one time..tall and skinny and you can't figure out while you won't gain weight so you resort to using drugs to fill the gap.

[jrogan]

Grymreefer - Thank you for the info... I have looked into AI's (Arimidex to be exact) I was told by several different sports Dr that it wouldn't be very necessary. And I am taking an anti-estrogen during to keep water weight off. However, I did ready the "My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle" - I have already had my blood work completed by my dr who I told what I was planning on doing. They said and I quote, "I do not condone what you're done and I will not aid in the use. However, I will give you advice so you do not hurt yourself because I cannot stop you." With that said they gave me a bunch of reading material and told me what to research. I find it interesting that clomid and nolva should be used in conjunction. I did read that an HCG should be administered once a week to keep your boys down stairs running and I plan to incorporate that into my regimen.

[Grymreefer]

Hey I'm not a genius at all and am not well versed in the world of anabolic steroids. But what I can tell you is that most doctors are not well informed in the world of anabolic use for performance enhancements. It is absolutely necessary to use an AI on cycle. We don't want you coming back in 3 weeks with a new post. "I have breasts. Now what?" All the information I gave you can be readily found using that handy search bar up in the top right hand corner.
Doctors make mistakes quite often. Nolvadex and Clomid are relatively the same in structure. I remember reading somewhere on this site that if used in conjunction with each other they compete for the estrogen receptor. I may be wrong and will stand corrected if need be. Just wait till tomorrow and the vets will school you. It seems everyone is asleep atm and I would HIGHLY advice you not to start your cycle. You are right on the HCG. You should run it through your cycle to prevent shut down which will then make your PCT more effective since you are not coming from complete HPTA shutdown. You should also taper your doses on your SERM's. Usually you would run 40mg the first two weeks of the PCT then drop it down to 20mg. And about your doctors..they call it medical "practice" hence they are always learning. People here are sometimes given ill informed information from their doctors on their TRT. Remember they really don't teach you how to use anabolic steroids in medical school. Whatever he knows he had to seek out on his own or it was word of mouth passed down.

http://forums.steroid.com/pct-post-c...l-control.html This.

[Grymreefer]

I also wouldn't recommend that MUCH HCG. Just saw your dosages. Start off at 500iu's if you don't respond bump it up by intervals of 250 never going above 1000 ius in a week unless you for some ungodly reason don't respond to that dose. Too much HCG and you cause unwanted aromatization. If your testicles don't atrophy on cycle. Your HCG dosage is perfect.

[jrogan]

Diet:
Calories per day 5250
Protein: 180g
BCAS’s: 10g

Wake-up: 40g Whey protein, multivitamin
Morning: Egg whites, Oats, Grains, wheat, 1/2 gallon water fish-oil 2-3g CLA
Pre-lunch: Nuts, bananas, apples ¼ gallon water
Lunch: 1/2lbs salmon, asparagus, peaches, brown rice 1/2 gallon water
Pre-workout: NO-Boost-Whey protein 40g, creatine 4g, beta-alanine 2g, BCAA’s 5g, Betaine 3g
(Workout)
Post-workout: Whey Protein 40g, Casein Protein 20g, creatine 4g, beta-alanine 2g, BCAA’s 5g, Betaine 3g
Pre-dinner: Nuts, bananas, apples ¼ gallon water
Dinner: 1-2lbs Chicken, broccoli, backed potato (no butter, no sourcream), 16 oz fat free milk
Bed: Casein Protein 40g

[Grymreefer]

Everyone will tell you to up your protein intake. I was told to keep it at 1.5g of protein per 1LB of body weight. Remember your on cycle. Protein synthesis increases by a large margin. Why not give the body a surplus of building blocks for muscle development? Do you know your BMR roughly?

[jrogan]

Yes: 1835

[jrogan]

I have been working out for 1 year now... My bench is 210 my squat is 350, my body type is an ectomorph so it's hard for me to build muscle but I can gain crazy strength.

[Grymreefer]

Well that is a MASSIVE surplus. From my what I am seeing if you are consuming 180g of protein and say you consume 5250 calories in a day. Your only getting 720 calories from protein. What are your macros? Carbs/fats. Something seems off, but like I said please hold off until you hear from some vets. I am just trying to hopefully convince you to not start anything immediately as to save your time, money, and frankly your own body. You only got one.

[Grymreefer]

And everyone would recommend a more solid base to work from. In my experience people who train solid for a year are still not at their genetic potential. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I highly recommend you hold off for a while, train a few more years then come back and play god with your hormones. Your results will be more satisfactory then the road you are contemplating on going down.

[jrogan]

I do not know what those are to be honest. I can say that sometime, not lately, I have taken vitargo and my complex carbs were high esp. with eating bananas. I eat 40% green 60 yellow bananas. I stopped vitargo because I read that eating bananas is a lot better. Just eating a banana that's too ripe is like eating a bowl full of sugar where it's a simple carb.

[jrogan]

I understand what you're saying... however, I am in my mid 30's and my test and muscle building levels are dropping year by year.

[jrogan]

To add, my Test levels at 30 were 1100, my test levels now are 740.

[Grymreefer]

All I can say is please hold off. Read up on the diet forum. If you have questions type them into the search bar. if you still CANNOT find your exact question then feel free to make a thread. You have a lot of learning to do and that is hilariously ironic since it is coming from me. Your macros are your protein/carbs/fats. Your micros are your vitamins etc. General rule of them. 1g of protein=4 calories 1g of carbs=4 calories 1g of fat=9 calories. Also on your post for what your routine schedule is for eating. Do you measure out your servings or are you just gustimating what 5250 calories looks like? I see you didn't put a serving down for majority of things. I am an extreme ectomorph and even when I had the munchies it was a challenge to get to 5000 calories. That is a whole lottta food.

[Grymreefer]

So far from my perspective you got a few things right. You got blood tests and you waited until you were older and your HPTA has balanced out. Other than that you need to do more research.

[jrogan]

I weight out all of my meals for the week. My ex, who worked out religiously, got me on the habit of measuring the amount of my meals. She got me to eat more veggies and fruit vs eating meat. She took me off eating red meat every day to maybe once a month. and I eat 2-3 servings per meal. I am able to eat a lot, I don't have a hard time eating. that's what made my ex so mad. I was able to eat whatever I wanted and wouldn't gain a lbs. However, she would eat 1 candy bar and gain 10lbs then workout for 3 hours straight for 7 days to lose it.

[Grymreefer]

Well you could be some genetic anomaly which is highly doubted. All I can say is please hold off. Wait till some vets posts on this. And then go from there.

Good luck and welcome to the forum. A treasure of information awaits you if you have the motivation to read EVERY SINGLE sticky on this site. You may be surprised at what you thought you knew. I know I was.

[jrogan]

Thanks, Gymreefer! Have a great night and trust me I plan to hold off. I have already purchased my stuff but I an to hold on using it till I am 100% positive on what I should do... You're right I only have one body and I shouldn't jump the gun and destroy it. Again, Thanks!

[Grymreefer]

Don't listen to anything I said except the part where you shouldn't start yet. Hopefully someone will chime in.

[Grymreefer]

I confused myself on the Nolvadex and Clomid. Clomid is known overtime to down regulate the GnRH receptors, as Nolvadex is known to upregulate the GnRH receptors which then will lead to more LH. I'm trying to find the article I read about using Nolvadex and Clomid together so I have something to source from. They both compete for estrogen receptors and they both belong to the same family they just have a different mechanism of action within the body.

[marcus300]

You need to sort your diet out before starting a cycle and build a solid base. At your weight your diet needs work and it wouldn't matter if you did go on steroids you would lose all the gains after the end ends due to your diet not being able to support any new tissue. Go to the nutrition section and read the stickies regarding bulking diets and over the next 6+ months build some weight on your frame because steroids wont do this only diet and training will.

[Ainew]

Hey I'm not a genius at all and am not well versed in the world of anabolic steroids. But what I can tell you is that most doctors are not well informed in the world of anabolic use for performance enhancements. It is absolutely necessary to use an AI on cycle.
.

Yeah I don't run any AI on 600~ Test E and I've never had any itching puffy sensitive nips,and I don't have gyno. I'm not telling him not to use any at first but he could taper down the AI and see if he gets any sides. Its just genetics imo,some people can run a gram of test with no AI and be fine others need AI at 250.

[Grymreefer]

Swifto- the person who stressed an AI is absolutely necessary on cycle had the exact situation he explains in his sticky. Just because you don't have puffy nipples or gyno, does not correlate to a normal e2 level. Estrogen affects the body in many ways. Gynocomastia is just one side effect to name. I take everything people post here, especially threads that have been stickied and referred to on multiple occasions, as something to follow. I would love to see someone who can run a gram of testosterone a week regardless of ester and see what their blood work would look like. We all have the aromatase enzyme in our body. Some people just have a different physiological response to estrogen. Just because you can't see the problem on the outside doesn't mean its not running rampant on your body inside.

[Ainew]

Obviously someone isn't going to run doses of 1g all the time unless they are trying to be very elite. The only way to know if you feel fine and only get some acne is to get a blood test. If you feel fine with no AI and don't get any sides I don't really see the problem. Either way getting a blood test could put the fears to rest for sure. You can't always follow stickies to the t buddy its a general guideline,people react to the same thing totally differently.

You just have to find out what works for you,doing so as safely as possible. Not that there is really anything to mess up use the proper stuff at the right doses its not building a gundam...

[Grymreefer]

Hey I could be wrong. I don't actually use AAS I just try to read everything that is posted. Your probably more versed in this field than I am. It just seems that I see every other day a post along the lines of...."help I got gyno, or help I grew breasts" And when I read their protocol..they didn't have an AI, not even one on hand. I find that interesting that there have been people who have used a gram of test and still no AI? I know more isn't always better for gear. Who uses 1 gram of testosterone a week? IFBB Pros? In my eyes that seems like overkill. The average male body at the high end of the scale would produce close to 100mg a week. That is the HIGH end. So running 500mg would be 5x the natural testosterone level? Exogenous testosterone would also be more active than your own natural test production. So wouldn't that increase the need for an AI? It even states in how to plan your first successful cycle to use an AI. This is why I don't dare to touch anything. Things can become complicated it seems with everyone possessing conflicting information. What are your experiences with not using an AI? Do you have bloodwork?

[BG]

Im not sure where the 5250 cals are coming from but its very hard to eat that much. Also how long have you been on this diet? Not long I suppose since you only weigh 170lbs. Wait like said above to use gear, hang around here, learn about everything that goes along with it, training and give your diet some time to build a natural base. It would just be stupid to compromise 750 natural test at 34 years old.

[jrogan]

Im not sure where the 5250 cals are coming from but its very hard to eat that much. Also how long have you been on this diet? Not long I suppose since you only weigh 170lbs. Wait like said above to use gear, hang around here, learn about everything that goes along with it, training and give your diet some time to build a natural base. It would just be stupid to compromise 750 natural test at 34 years old.

I have been on this diet for 1.5 years now. I used to weigh 150lbs and I have been working out for 5 years on and off. For the past year I really started to dedicate more time and energy into they gym and gained 20lbs. I got my results back from my metabolism rate and I am supposed to burn between 3000 and 3500 calories per day according to results.

Also...

You're right, it is a lot of food and eating so much makes me have to use the restroom a lot. Same goes for drinking so much water. However, the cool thing is my urine is like peeing water... it's very clear.

[Grymreefer]

It doesn't really add up. If you claimed earlier that your BMR was under 2000, but you consume 5250. I feel body fat would be inevitable even with an extreme ectomorph. Your protein intake only accounts for 720 calories. So that either means you are consuming a god awful amount of carbs or your fat intake is unreasonably high. Either way I'm completely lost reading your daily eating routine and trying to fathom where these calories are coming from. Hopefully a vet will chime in. Do you know your body fat?

Also food for thought on why you should use an AI on cycle. http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...le-swifto.html

I feel that guy claiming someone using 1 gram of testosterone and no need for an AI is just pure bullsh!t. Everyone claims to be a genetic freak, but where are the pictures?

BG made a great point. being 170 with this calorie surplus..you still have a lot of room to grow naturally. Why not build a stronger core to then supplement with AAS? Your results will be better.

[jrogan]

I stay away from fats... my BF is very low. I am extremely cut and well defined. My waist is 32 and my chest is 45. My arms are 16 and I don't know how big my legs are. My protein intake is high. I eat a lot of fruit and vegetables.

On average my daily intake...

4 bananas a day is about 420 calories (105 calories per banana)
3-4 Red apples a day is about 285-380 calories (95 calories per apple)
3-4 cups of nuts per day is about 1587-2116 calories (529 calories per cup)
2 cups of broccoli per day is about 60 calories (30 calories per cup)
1-2 LB of Chicken per day is about 306-612 calories per day (306 calories per LB)
.5-1 LB of Salmon per day is about 206-412 calories per day (412 calories per LB)
2-3 cups of brown rice per day is about 432-648 calories per day (216 calories per cup)
3-4 cups of asparagus per day is about 81-108 calories per day (27 calories per cup)
2-3 cups of egg whites per day is about 250-375 calories per day (125 calories per cup)
1-2 cups of oats per day is about 607-1217 calories per day (607 calories per cup)
.5-1 cups of wheat per day is about 325-651 calories per day (651 calories per cup)

[Grymreefer]

Now you have it ranging on various cups. I'm guessing your intake is not consistent? I'd advice you to really read up on the diet section. I am just completely lost and I only feel if I continue I will start to confuse you too. Do you have a massive distended stomach by the end of the day consuming that much?

[jrogan]

My stomach looks normal but it may extend a little bit when my bell is full, yes. This is how I pre measure all of my meals. my diet is consistent every week. I do not drink soda, I don't eat anything out of my diet. my diet is very routine. again, I use the restroom 5-6 times a day... I eat a lot. I have an athletic bp of 65 and bpm 50-55. By all means I stay fit. Working out isn't a hobby, it's a way of life I live and have been dedicated to doing just that for the past year.

[Grymreefer]

I don't know what else to tell you. You give information that is good, but it is not valuable for this situation.
1. 6' 2'' 170 is not your genetic limit. I know that personally being 6' 5'' and under 200 pounds.
2. You think your doctors are more versed on anabolic use. Read through all these stickies and you'll learn its a ever evolving process. People here have first hand experience. They don't teach you how to use AAS for performance enchancing properties in medical school.
3. BG stated why would you mess up a test level of 700+ at 34 years old? My last blood work my test level wasn't even that high!
4. You don't have an AI. You can really do some damage to your body if you were to over expose yourself to estrogen for a prolonged period of time. Too much of anything is bad.
5. You claim you are well versed with dieting, yet when I asked your macros you didn't know that terminology? Not to bash on you I'm also learning just like you, but that is a fundamental part of dieting.

[Grymreefer]

You can go ahead and continue on with whatever your plans are, but when a mistake happens. People do not show sympathy on this board for ignorance and you will probably not enjoy the response you receive. I've been blasted before and I've read many other threads that were in the same boat.

[RipOwens]

I say just hang around and give it time. That is a lot of food to eat friend, and if you can do it consistently and on point, my hat's off to you.

[jrogan]

Grymreefer,

1.) I never said I was an expert on anything
2.) I never said my doctors were correct, matter of fact I stated they gave me some literature.
3.) I have read over several thousand post that AI's are not necessary and I did say I would take it into consideration.
4.) I am not trying to get past my genetic limitations. I want to enhance my physique and build muscle a little faster and maintain about 75% of it to be exact. My ideal weight for my frame is supposed to be 200-225. My bone structure is large to x-large. Several doctors have told me this number. Remember, I never listen to just one person. I gather as much information as possible then I make a well informed decision based on the information I gather.

Please lose the attitude and the assumptions.

[Grymreefer]

Its not an attitude, but you clearly ignore the vets thoughts. I give up. Go on cycle. When you get off and lose all your gains you will be back on this board.

[jrogan]

I say just hang around and give it time. That is a lot of food to eat friend, and if you can do it consistently and on point, my hat's off to you.

Thank you RipOwens!

[jrogan]

Its not an attitude, but you clearly ignore the vets thoughts. I give up. Go on cycle. When you get off and lose all your gains you will be back on this board.

I have received feed back from one person about the test levels. Again, this is why I am here... So I gain as much information as possible.

[Ainew]

Hey I could be wrong. I don't actually use AAS I just try to read everything that is posted. Your probably more versed in this field than I am. It just seems that I see every other day a post along the lines of...."help I got gyno, or help I grew breasts" And when I read their protocol..they didn't have an AI, not even one on hand. I find that interesting that there have been people who have used a gram of test and still no AI? I know more isn't always better for gear. Who uses 1 gram of testosterone a week? IFBB Pros? In my eyes that seems like overkill. The average male body at the high end of the scale would produce close to 100mg a week. That is the HIGH end. So running 500mg would be 5x the natural testosterone level? Exogenous testosterone would also be more active than your own natural test production. So wouldn't that increase the need for an AI? It even states in how to plan your first successful cycle to use an AI. This is why I don't dare to touch anything. Things can become complicated it seems with everyone possessing conflicting information. What are your experiences with not using an AI? Do you have bloodwork?

First I will say I haven't gotten bloodwork simply because I feel fine libido is good not very bloated and only some mild acne sometimes. Don't get me wrong I do have a bottle of armidex and I did use it at first at only .25 EoD but I had joint pains from it so I quit using it to every 3 days. Still felt fine so I just stopped using it. Now I have only read about people saying they do a gram and with no AI I don't know how true it is you can only find out yourself by doing it I guess lol. As I mentioned it's really down to the persons some people can use trt doses and get horrible sides. Which is why you should use the stickie as a basic guideline. My whole problem with forums about this subject is its a lot of people just repeating what someone has said and they haven't actually done it themselves.

Now reading further down yeah jrogan you MIGHT not need an AI but you should still get some just in case liqudex isn't that expensive and last a long time. Also don't forget to permablast for the next 15 years.