4.0 PSA and several musings in one post

[2Sox]

Wish it were my grade point average in college. No such luck.

Granted I'm in my sixties and us older guys are expected to have elevated PSA levels so I'm not too alarmed. Went in to my urologist today for blood work and ultrasounds of all the plumbing. Prostate looks fine. No nodules. If PSA rises, I'll be going in for an MRI of prostate with contrast. Urologist said never has she had any positives in any of her patients on TRT. That to me is a pretty good record.

* Would love to hear what others' experiences have been regarding rising PSA numbers.

Anyway, this number has been slowly creeping up. November it was 3.8.

My protocol then was 16mg/day T Cyp, 125iu hCG/day.
TT: 1047 Range: 348-1197
Free T: 21.9 Range: 6.6-18.1

Blood was drawn BEFORE my shot.

I lowered both for the following month to:
14mg/day T Cyp, 100iu hCG/day
Again, blood was drawn before my shot.

Along with the 4.0 PSA, I got these results back today (December readings) same ranges as above:
Total T: 1294
Free T: 31.9!!

(Wait, there is a question here!)

So I lowered my dose and my readings went up! So my first question is - WTF! Am I in "cycling" territory? I should be putting on some serious muscle with these numbers! (A little humor here.) Can anyone offer some enlightenment on this??

I have another concern regarding the use of creatine. I'm supplementing with 3g/day - a relatively conservative dose. But my labs return a disturbing story in this regard.

My eGFR is 47. Range is >59. That means my kidneys are not filtering as well as they should. (My wife who is a PA explained this to me. She half joked around, "You're not a young kid like the guys on the forum. You've got old kidneys!" She's concerned and she got me concerned, so I promised to cut out creatine. No big sacrifice. I'll just have to forgo any awards I was planning on winning. ;-) )

Creatinine was 1.50 mg/dL Range: 0.76-1.27.

I read somewhere that labs return "false" readings for creatine. And I wonder what this means. I also wonder how many of us who supplement are paying attention to this and eGFR. You can't play with the kidneys. Again, some enlightenment would be appreciated.

Thanks, guys.

[bullshark99]

2sox,
Confused and cannot offer anything of value regarding the PSA readings. However, several months back someone posted a question on creatine supplementation, my response was I felt it nothing more than placebo effect, now maybe I'm wrong.......BUT, I did fail the GFR test! I eliminated it completely, retested in something like 4 weeks and GFR returned to normal?
Personally I will never touch the stuff again, kidneys are nothing to be playing with. I know ( for myself) anyhow, that is the ONLY change I made. Coincidence??? Maybe, but I have heard other speak of it being rough on the kidneys.
Keep us posted on the PSA pls

[kelkel]

Are you taking cialis 2Sox?
Abstaining prior to BW, right?
No, that's not cycle levels. Not even close.
The prostate has a saturation point when it comes to testosterone.

Long-term testosterone therapy does not increase risk of prostate cancer -- ScienceDaily

[BallSak]

Maybe you need to keep it in your pants for several days before the psa test...:-)

[Score]

My grandfather has had PSA numbers over 400 for 20 years. No cancer and at 85 going strong!

From what I hear the key is for your numbers to stay stable over time. I want to say his numbers crept up over 500 at times

[FONZY007]

Are you taking cialis 2Sox?
Abstaining prior to BW, right?
No, that's not cycle levels. Not even close.
The prostate has a saturation point when it comes to testosterone.

Long-term testosterone therapy does not increase risk of prostate cancer -- ScienceDaily

Good read, I even was told older men with normal test levels PSA is better than men with low T

[xcraider37]

Wish it were my grade point average in college. No such luck.

Granted I'm in my sixties and us older guys are expected to have elevated PSA levels so I'm not too alarmed. Went in to my urologist today for blood work and ultrasounds of all the plumbing. Prostate looks fine. No nodules. If PSA rises, I'll be going in for an MRI of prostate with contrast. Urologist said never has she had any positives in any of her patients on TRT. That to me is a pretty good record.

* Would love to hear what others' experiences have been regarding rising PSA numbers.

Anyway, this number has been slowly creeping up. November it was 3.8.

My protocol then was 16mg/day T Cyp, 125iu hCG/day.
TT: 1047 Range: 348-1197
Free T: 21.9 Range: 6.6-18.1

Blood was drawn BEFORE my shot.

I lowered both for the following month to:
14mg/day T Cyp, 100iu hCG/day
Again, blood was drawn before my shot.

Along with the 4.0 PSA, I got these results back today (December readings) same ranges as above:
Total T: 1294
Free T: 31.9!!

(Wait, there is a question here!)

So I lowered my dose and my readings went up! So my first question is - WTF! Am I in "cycling" territory? I should be putting on some serious muscle with these numbers! (A little humor here.) Can anyone offer some enlightenment on this??

I have another concern regarding the use of creatine. I'm supplementing with 3g/day - a relatively conservative dose. But my labs return a disturbing story in this regard.

My eGFR is 47. Range is >59. That means my kidneys are not filtering as well as they should. (My wife who is a PA explained this to me. She half joked around, "You're not a young kid like the guys on the forum. You've got old kidneys!" She's concerned and she got me concerned, so I promised to cut out creatine. No big sacrifice. I'll just have to forgo any awards I was planning on winning. ;-) )

Creatinine was 1.50 mg/dL Range: 0.76-1.27.

I read somewhere that labs return "false" readings for creatine. And I wonder what this means. I also wonder how many of us who supplement are paying attention to this and eGFR. You can't play with the kidneys. Again, some enlightenment would be appreciated.

Thanks, guys.

If you are a lifter your creatinine levels are generally higher, and if I'm not mistaken the e in egfr stands for estimate, I wouldn't worry too much about a 1.5, I've been as high as 1.6, but take lisinopril, lift and take in a fair amount of protein, lisinopril can raise creatinine levels, I generally come in at 1.3, if I eliminated lisinonpril, lifting and protein, I am sure my creatinine would drop dramatically. So with all that said I'm sure your kidneys are working fine for an old geezer.

[2Sox]

Are you taking cialis 2Sox?
Abstaining prior to BW, right?
No, that's not cycle levels. Not even close.
The prostate has a saturation point when it comes to testosterone.

Long-term testosterone therapy does not increase risk of prostate cancer -- ScienceDaily

Yep, 10mg Cialis every night along with Flomax. I've also been supplementing with Beta Sitosterol. And I've been peeing better than ever. Actually feeling fantastic.

I didn't really think I was in cycling territory. Joking. (What kind of numbers do guys get when they are there?)

I do (my best to) abstain before blood work and it's too cold to ride a bicycle. ;-)

But the completely CRAZY thing is this: My TT and Free T readings went UP when I decreased my dosages. Why would this happen??

@Bullshark

Would you believe that Life Extension advocates very strongly for creatine supplementation?

[bullshark99]

Sox, frankly nothing surprises me anymore, just sharing my personal experience. As I stated, who knows, maybe it was a coincidence, just got my attention.

[OingoBoingo]

But the completely CRAZY thing is this: My TT and Free T readings went UP when I decreased my dosages. Why would this happen??

@Bullshark

Would you believe that Life Extension advocates very strongly for creatine supplementation?

A similar thing happened to me. Had to wonder if lowering the dose slightly caused less aromatase accounting for the higher numbers.

If taking Creatine, drink at least a gallon of water a day. Coffee don't count. Trying to get my water intake up to six liters but it's tough.

[APIs]

I can see why this would be unnerving for sure. Mine hasnt varied from 1.2 - 1.4 over the past 4 years. Good luck with that.

Some people swear by the Creatine supplementation. I never realized much benefit from it. My Creatinine naturally falls high @ 1.40+ due to muscle mass which is common in weight lifters.

Please note when you go for the MRI with Contrast, they may reject you because of the high Creatinine. They rejected me for fear I couldnt filter the contrast properly. They finally made me sign a waiver to get the contrast done. So I would discuss this with your GP and the MRI office before you actually show up for the test...

[kelkel]

Yep, 10mg Cialis every night along with Flomax. I've also been supplementing with Beta Sitosterol. And I've been peeing better than ever. Actually feeling fantastic.

I didn't really think I was in cycling territory. Joking. (What kind of numbers do guys get when they are there?)

A 500mg cycle of pharm grade test can put guys in the 3-4K Ng/Dl range.

I do (my best to) abstain before blood work and it's too cold to ride a bicycle. ;-)

But the completely CRAZY thing is this: My TT and Free T readings went UP when I decreased my dosages. Why would this happen??

Just a snapshot in time 2Sox. Just because it's injected doesn't mean we stay linear.

@Bullshark

Would you believe that Life Extension advocates very strongly for creatine supplementation?

Read this on creatine:

Creatine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

[buttslinger]

Compared to the Most who Post I am a know-nothing, but I am sixty and the first thing my Urologist does after a little chat is stick his finger up my butt and probe my prostate, my PSA has risen to a steady 1.5 the last couple of years, which he says is OK. My PSA did go up to ELEVEN once, it turned out to be a urinary tract infection.
In your case, Sox, it sounds like your PSA rise is directly connected to added testosterone, and I would take it seriously and put on your SERIOUS CAP.
They say it take like twenty years to develop cancer from elevated PSA numbers, my urologist was my Dad's urologist, ...he's in his eighties and goes to Gold's Gym. He's smart.
I'm sure there is lots of info about this out there because unlike acne and hair loss, your prostate can kill ya.

[buttslinger]

My eGFR and creatinine were the same as yours, Sox, my Doc didn't seem too concerned, she said drink more water to filter those kidneys. A Kidney specialist in the past said my levels were high because I was like "a big black man!"
My Dad had been on the Kidney Machine for Dialysis, so to hear this tiny foreign doctor lady give me this diagnosis took a second to register.........

QUESTION: Does creatinine and creatine have anything to do with each other?

[OingoBoingo]

QUESTION: Does creatinine and creatine have anything to do with each other?

From medicine net dot com:

Creatinine is a chemical waste molecule that is generated from muscle metabolism. Creatinine is produced from creatine, a molecule of major importance for energy production in muscles. Approximately 2% of the body's creatine is converted to creatinine every day. Creatinine is transported through the bloodstream to the kidneys. The kidneys filter out most of the creatinine and dispose of it in the urine.

[OingoBoingo]

Read this on creatine:

Creatine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

Good read, and interesting website. Thanks for the link!

[kelkel]

From medicine net dot com:

Hence why working out will elevate it. Same for ALT and AST.

And yes OB, Examine.com is probably the best unbiased site out there.

[2Sox]

Read this on creatine:

Creatine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

Clear and concise. Thanks, Kel. And thanks for the above info.

When I did my bloods on Thusday, I didn't take any supplements before and didn't inject the day before as well as the morning of the blood draw. We'll see what the result is. I don't want to alarm the doc. She writes me for much more Test than I use and I'm building up a nice stockpile.

Anyway, the nice thing is that everything else is perfect. December Hematocrit was at 48. RBC is fine. Crit will probably be higher on this one but it's time to donate anyway.

@ Buttslinger: I agree, you don't play with the kidneys or the prostate. Humor is always good but I think I made it clear that I am taking this very seriously.

@ APIs: Thanks for the advice about contrast. An MRI is only the plan if my PSA continues to rise. I don't go for BW for another month and I stopped creatine as of today. Probably enough time to exit my system.

[Metalject]

Funny thing about blood results and the feeling that you finally have everything optimized and dialed in is that most of the time you're wrong....not you 2sox specifically, I'm speaking generally. Things just change over time. I know that seems like a smart ass or weak answer but I think it's the only real answer. A good example, I now take less testosterone than I ever have in my life and the smallest amount I've ever taken in 5yrs of TRT. For the last two years my total has stayed in the 800-900 range and Free in the mid-20's or so. Also, in 5yrs my hematocrit has always stayed around 48. I had blood drawn last wk, total 1290, Free 49.5, hematocrit 54.9. Nothing in my life has changed in any way, not the way I eat, nothing I take, my activity level, nothing. So, for the first time I'll need to donate blood. Will I reduce my test dosage? I'm not sure, I think I'll have levels checked again in 4-5wks just to satisfy my own curiosity. But the larger point, nothing ever stays the same and once what was perfect will become imperfect at some point down the road.

[bullshark99]

^^^^nice! In simpler terms our bodies just change over the course of time.

[Score]

Funny thing about blood results and the feeling that you finally have everything optimized and dialed in is that most of the time you're wrong....not you 2sox specifically, I'm speaking generally. Things just change over time. I know that seems like a smart ass or weak answer but I think it's the only real answer. A good example, I now take less testosterone than I ever have in my life and the smallest amount I've ever taken in 5yrs of TRT. For the last two years my total has stayed in the 800-900 range and Free in the mid-20's or so. Also, in 5yrs my hematocrit has always stayed around 48. I had blood drawn last wk, total 1290, Free 49.5, hematocrit 54.9. Nothing in my life has changed in any way, not the way I eat, nothing I take, my activity level, nothing. So, for the first time I'll need to donate blood. Will I reduce my test dosage? I'm not sure, I think I'll have levels checked again in 4-5wks just to satisfy my own curiosity. But the larger point, nothing ever stays the same and once what was perfect will become imperfect at some point down the road.

<b>dumb question</b>

Could HCG, along with a more active life style have your natural testosterone production going, and contributing to your injections?

[2Sox]

Funny thing about blood results and the feeling that you finally have everything optimized and dialed in is that most of the time you're wrong....not you 2sox specifically, I'm speaking generally. Things just change over time. I know that seems like a smart ass or weak answer but I think it's the only real answer. A good example, I now take less testosterone than I ever have in my life and the smallest amount I've ever taken in 5yrs of TRT. For the last two years my total has stayed in the 800-900 range and Free in the mid-20's or so. Also, in 5yrs my hematocrit has always stayed around 48. I had blood drawn last wk, total 1290, Free 49.5, hematocrit 54.9. Nothing in my life has changed in any way, not the way I eat, nothing I take, my activity level, nothing. So, for the first time I'll need to donate blood. Will I reduce my test dosage? I'm not sure, I think I'll have levels checked again in 4-5wks just to satisfy my own curiosity. But the larger point, nothing ever stays the same and once what was perfect will become imperfect at some point down the road.

A very good illustrative point. Comments on Kel's point above in post #12. Your story had me feel more related. Just shows what a great place this is. We don't have to wonder about things all alone.