FSH during cycle

[cucu]

Hello all,

What would your view on FSH use (concurrently with a well planned cycle, i.e. T + whatever + hCG) be? I mean, FSH promotes sperm genesis while LH (and hCG) testosterone secreting function of the testes. By administering hCG and T, we see a dramatic drop in FSH and hence, in spermatogenesis. A reduction in sperm quantity or quality is also considered a hypogonadic state.

So, to preserve testes' function, does it make sense to add a little bit of FSH on-cycle? Because I hear a lot about returning to the pre-cycle state testosterone-wise, but what about sperm-wise?

Any opinions welcome.

[Java Man]

A couple of interesting studies:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/731842

Chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in normal men: ... - PubMed - NCBI

I realize one of these involved females but still interesting.

Look into HMG.

[austinite]

You don't just see a drop in FSH. you see a drop in both LH and FSH. Mimicking LH via hCG does not increase LH secretion. In fact, it suppresses it. Mimicking FSH (and LH) via hMG would do the exact same thing and halt production at the pituitary.

[cucu]

Mimicking FSH (and LH) via hMG would do the exact same thing and halt production at the pituitary.

First, LH and FSH do not inhibit themselves, is that right? The classic negative feedback loop involves T, like T inhibits GnRH which leads to LH/FSH reduction, and T inhibits LH/FSH. Therefor, providing exogenous LH/FSH or analogs wouldn't inhibit their production.

Second, that was not the point of my question. It was whether we would be able to rescue/protect testicular function by providing FSH. The link Java Man provides some unecdotal evidence that refer to " better feeling", "recovery a breeze" which only point to testosterone secretion restoration, but not sperm quality. Does any one have any view on that?

On another note. Wouldn't it make more sense hijacking/replacing the entire spectrum of gonadal hormones (GnRH, LH and FSH in their physiological doses and T in supraphysiological) and then jump-start your GnRH? Which might not be needed as hypothalamus seems to be pretty resilient.

[Buster Brown]

That's why you should consider having your family before risking your hpta. What protocol would you recommend to someone going to do an AAS cycle to keep this hypogonadal state from occurring? Is there something better then hcg use on cycle that we are unaware of, please share.

[cucu]

That's why you should consider having your family before risking your hpta.

Those are wise words.

Moreover, I have no clue if there is a better protocol. In fact, we don't know how "good" exactly the popular "hCG during, SERM's after" layout for recovery is to start with, so we can compare a new one. I mean, it sure is effective, but how much exactly? How could we compare the effectiveness of an "hCG during cycle" protocol to an "hMG+hCG during cycle" protocol, apart from rigorous testing and controlled trials? Those are medical research topics, but we have here a few very experienced members who may have empirical knowledge on FSH and its role/function after a steroid cycle. Aus is one of them, it seems, if he has something to share as well.

It just makes more sense to keep pumping a bit of FSH (or menotropin/hMG) to keep spermatogenesis going, then trust the GnRH to restore the pituitary function to keep it going endogenously. Like it was said before, LH/hMG and FSH/hMG seem to not downregulate anything if taken in a physiological dose. But I maybe be overlooking something, or just plain out wrong, cause hormones tend to cross react to pretty much anything.

For example, testes secrete two more hormones, activin and inhibin, that promote and block respectively LH production in the pituitary! So, we are indeed messing with some pretty complex stuff.. But, a young healthy body can be pretty resilient so I was just trying to be as overly cautious as possible here, not suggesting it anyway.

[austinite]

First, LH and FSH do not inhibit themselves, is that right? The classic negative feedback loop involves T, like T inhibits GnRH which leads to LH/FSH reduction, and T inhibits LH/FSH. Therefor, providing exogenous LH/FSH or analogs wouldn't inhibit their production.

Second, that was not the point of my question. It was whether we would be able to rescue/protect testicular function by providing FSH. The link Java Man provides some unecdotal evidence that refer to " better feeling", "recovery a breeze" which only point to testosterone secretion restoration, but not sperm quality. Does any one have any view on that?

On another note. Wouldn't it make more sense hijacking/replacing the entire spectrum of gonadal hormones (GnRH, LH and FSH in their physiological doses and T in supraphysiological) and then jump-start your GnRH? Which might not be needed as hypothalamus seems to be pretty resilient.

To your first point... If you administer hCG to mimic LH (even without exogenous testosterone), you are still suppressing your natural LH production.

Back on topic... The demand for hCG on cycle is intended to maintain your Leydig cells, which is what LH analogue stimulates into testosterone production. Testosterone, coupled with FSH will stimulate Sertoli cells into spermatozoa. There isn't any evidence in humans that lead us to believe that tentative FSH suppression could result in desensitized sertoli cells. Even in most extreme cases and clinical trials where FSH was severely depleted, forcing secretion via clomiphene or HMG lead to generous performance by sertoli cells.

Would it hurt to use HMG on cycle? No. But it's not exactly as readily available as hCG and frankly, I haven't see anything that would trigger the need.

By the way, the length of time suppression occurs should be observed and considered far more than supra-physiological levels with respect to recovery.

[cucu]

Even in most extreme cases and clinical trials where FSH was severely depleted, forcing secretion via clomiphene or HMG lead to generous performance by sertoli cells.

Perfect! That was what I was looking for, do you have a source? You are saying that clomiphene increases FSH apart from LH, right? I guess I am overly concerned with spermatogenesis, it seems to be reversible (at least on test-only cycles) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1430094

By the way, the length of time suppression occurs should be observed and considered far more than supra-physiological levels with respect to recovery.

There are some people that would swear to the exact opposite, like most things around steroids. For example, they did a mild replacement dosage treatment above for 6 months and azoospermia was resolved after cessation of exogenous steroid administration. Other steroid users claim 2x-3x the physiological dose for 30 weeks works wonders for a smooth recovery and keepable gains. What does work, in the end?

[Iron Mind]

As far as infertility is concerned. From stories I've heard and from what I've read everyone should be able to return sperm count, spermatogenesis to a normal level after AAS use is discontinued.

Also read stuff about using hCG, HMG on-cycle to improve spermatogenesis (from azoospermia to normal) and be able to make your wife pregnant.
That seems like the way some pro's are doing it or people that are having hypogonadism (not from AAS use), since there are also pro-bodybuilders that are making their wife pregnant and most of them don't really go off for a long period..

So it seems logical to me that you would only want to run hCG + HMG if you want to get children on-cycle?
And hCG only on-cycle when you're just want to use AAS or TRT and you're not planning to make someone pregnant.

[NACH3]

I'm 31, and have LowT and was planning on still having kids one day.... So if HMG is more reputable for spermogenesis... It seems much harder to get than hCG as Austinite mentioned(but he also said it will still suppress at the pituitary so how would this work in getting a women pregnant(HMG)?

I know both are suppressives so...

[Iron Mind]

I'm 31, and have LowT and was planning on still having kids one day.... So if HMG is more reputable for spermogenesis... It seems much harder to get than hCG as Austinite mentioned(but he also said it will still suppress at the pituitary so how would this work in getting a women pregnant(HMG)?

I know both are suppressives so...

HMG would mimick FSH like hCG mimicks LH.
So as long as your FSH and LH are in normal range for you. You should be fine and should be able to make a woman pregnant.

If not, you could check your sperm count, motility etc. Just a basic fertility check-up.

[NACH3]

HMG would mimick FSH like hCG mimicks LH.
So as long as your FSH and LH are in normal range for you. You should be fine and should be able to make a woman pregnant.

If not, you could check your sperm count, motility etc. Just a basic fertility check-up.

Thanks Iron.... As this is what I was thinkin, also! My LH/& FSH are good... But I do have LowT and low sperm count! But like I said my pituitary is up and running well!

Thanks again buddy!

[Iron Mind]

Thanks Iron.... As this is what I was thinkin, also! My LH/& FSH are good... But I do have LowT and low sperm count! But like I said my pituitary is up and running well!

Thanks again buddy!

No problem. You're carrying around quite some muscle mass right there even on low T, awesome

As far a low sperm count. It only takes one, you know. But of course nature made up this idea of more is better as far as fertility is concerned.

[NACH3]

Thx but now I'm having more trouble keeping it... I'm on my way of starting my next cycle prop/NPP/backloaded w/winny oral for last 4 wks and will be running T3 as well... hCG/Adex/Prami/cialis! Can't wait! Lol

[Iron Mind]

Thx but now I'm having more trouble keeping it... I'm on my way of starting my next cycle prop/NPP/backloaded w/winny oral for last 4 wks and will be running T3 as well... hCG/Adex/Prami/cialis! Can't wait! Lol

Cheers! Good luck.



On a side-note. As far as fertility, don't forget that intratesticular T is needed for proper maturation of your sperm. So FSH and LH are both needed for proper fertility, not only FSH. So make sure both of them are in-check or run HMG + hCG for fertility.

[NACH3]

Good call buddy! Makes sense... And Thx again, brother!

[cucu]

hMG mimicks both LH and FSH (to a different extend) so you would need just hMG if dosed correctly.

NACH3, primary hypogonadism (what you seem to have) means that the testes are unable to do their job (hormone- or sperm-wise) despite being told to do so by the pituitary by means of LH./FSH. In that case, they are desensitized to LH/FSH/hCG/hMG so they wont respond well or at all.

But for eugonadic males, maybe keeping a low level of FSH stimulation through hMG would better prevent ASIH, that was what I was hypothesizing. Iron Mind, your point about intratesticular T is correct. As it seems, we need both the testes to produce T themselves and FSH for spermatogenesis, so your rationale seems sound, provided that FSH is quick to recover after a cycle (which seems to be).

By the way, has anyone heard activin use as a PCT? (the hormone, not the nandrolone phenylpropionate pharma brand name)

[NACH3]

hMG mimicks both LH and FSH (to a different extend) so you would need just hMG if dosed correctly.

NACH3, primary hypogonadism (what you seem to have) means that the testes are unable to do their job (hormone- or sperm-wise) despite being told to do so by the pituitary by means of LH./FSH. In that case, they are desensitized to LH/FSH/hCG/hMG so they wont respond well or at all.

But for eugonadic males, maybe keeping a low level of FSH stimulation through hMG would better prevent ASIH, that was what I was hypothesizing. Iron Mind, your point about intratesticular T is correct. As it seems, we need both the testes to produce T themselves and FSH for spermatogenesis, so your rationale seems sound, provided that FSH is quick to recover after a cycle (which seems to be).

By the way, has anyone heard activin use as a PCT? (the hormone, not the nandrolone phenylpropionate pharma brand name)

Ok... But your not saying running hCG on cycle is pointless in my case... Right?
Because it works wonders still to prevent atrophy and keep what Teaticular function I have! I mean I do still Fvk... Lol just sometimes not can't sustain(sometimes) I mean during recovery PCT I didn't.

Thx BTW!

[cucu]

Ok... But your not saying running hCG on cycle is pointless in my case... Right?

Well, that's a question for your endocrinologist to answer. You said your LH/FSH are good. If it is a true case of primary hypogonadism, then the pituitary would try to compensate and you would see 2x-3x the normal values of FSH and LH. Is that your case? If not, then it is something related to the cycle - like hCG, or the beginning of a secondary hypo on top of the primary.
As dully noted, it is a game against our bodies, as for example too much/too long an hCG can be detrimental and desensitize the testis cells' input to LH. Maybe that's what happened in your case?

If you dont have high enough (over the normal values) LH, have you or your doctor tried to jumpstart you pituitary? Like in PCT, just without a cycle.

[NACH3]

LH 5.3 1.7-8.6 Miu/ml
FSH. 5.0. 1,5-12.4 Miu/ml on lower side but ok
Prolactin. 4.1. 4.0-15.2 ng/ml

TT. 315. 348-1197
FT. 6.36 5.0-21.0ng/dl
FT%. 2.02. 1.5-4.0ng/dl
These suck... And I just found this out last week so I'm doin research on TRT(where they still use hCG/test/AI protocol so hcg does help in that case since your shutting your self down anyway.

[cucu]

To the best of my knowledge, this doesnt make sense.

Do you have the usual "low-T" symptoms? ED can be attributed to other stuff, namely and most notoriously stress. Your sex drive seems good, on the other hand! Did you verify this by a retest or was it a one-off? (T can fluctuate, or it can simply be a bad lab test) Is it substantially different than your previous measurements, 2-3 years ago?

What I mean is there can be 4 things happening (if the results are real and not one-off mistake):
1) Your hypothalamus is defunct and GnRH pulses deregulated (which would be much more obvious and have more symptoms and possibly other hormonal problems as well) and have tertiary hypogonadism (rare)
2) Have secondary hypogonadism which means your testes are fine, the pituitary cannot produce LH to turn them on, and you would have low LH - low T
3) Have primary hypogonadism meaning that the pituitary is trying to get the testes to work, but they dont respond. In that case you would have high LH - low T
4) Thats just your normal - let me explain, ranges are for reference. Maybe you were always functioning at ~300, your body and HPTA is adjusted to that and all is fine. Or maybe you had a bad PCT, and you need some more time to recover?

Just saying cause your BW seems weird. Did you have any recent head trauma? In my opinion, retest if you haven't and check with your endocrinologist. I don't mean to scare you, on the opposite it could be good. BTW, the most accurate way to test for T is 3 measurements across a day and average them.

[NACH3]

Oh my med history is very extensive(lots of trauma)... In short go to the HRT section and it's right there under post "So... I've been way off lately... BW confirms LowT + med hist" check that out as I have flipped a car 6 x comatosed died etc R. Shoulder problems need total reverse joint replacement 3 surgeries there lost 85 % of connective tissue but there's more to it opiate use over hlf my life weening off for good at moment! Etc but since the trauma and that's known to have s direct impact!