Consequeses of calculating TDEE wrong

[Wintermaul]

Hi

I was wondering if you guys could share some opinions on what happens if you go wrong when calculating TDEE or macros on a diet.
Lets say you want to help out a friend. He says how much he works out, how much he eats, his goals etc.
He wants to lose BF, maintain musclemass and do it in a little time-frame.

If you miss-calculate his TDEE, he told you he is not very active, he does little to no cardio. So you have him at a low TDEE, say 2500kcal a day. And on a diet you recommend him around 2000kcal with 40/40/20 macros as a standard. He also uses a little test E so he wont lose musclemass.
After some time(8-10weeks) you meet him up and he has lost alot of weight, has no energy, and really struggles some days. As an example we could say he got caught up with diet and wanted faster result and started cardio and a more active lifestyle so he really got a TDEE around 3100kcal.
Questions.
This is just an example, but if a misscalculation of 500kcal or more on TDEE, will this just make him lose fat faster, or will it make him lose musclemass?
How will the result be of upping his kcal-intake after such a long time? Reason for upping is energylevel.

If the TDEE was even MORE of a miss, like 1500kcal, how will the result then become?

Please share your thoughts...

[jimmyinkedup]

TDEE should be viewed as a starting point and you shouldnt be afraid to adjust if needed. What I am saying is after 3 weeks or so things arent headed in the desired direction, do not be afraid to make adjustments. Its not etched in stone.

[RaginCajun]

hmmmmmmmm..........how do you know your friend is not under eating?

how was his energy level at week 2, 4?

i think one needs to reassess every few weeks, especially when it is changing/adapting. if was losing weight each week, then i think that he should have reassessed.

maybe have him eat at maintenance cals for 2 weeks to see how he responds.

[Joco71]

TDEE should be viewed as a starting point and you shouldnt be afraid to adjust if needed. What I am saying is after 3 weeks or so things arent headed in the desired direction, do not be afraid to make adjustments. Its not etched in stone.

Agreed^^^^ after 3 weeks you should know to either increase or decrease. Common sense!!

[Wintermaul]

Thanks for the reply. This is simply a example. I know we must take a look how its going after 2-3 weeks after dietstart, maybe calcluate a new TDEE or make adjustments. But say in this example, this friends is someone far away, someone you dont meet every week, and normally doesnt help. He just wanted your advice.
What im saying is, how does the body respond to extreme deficiency? I want your thoughts on this. Because he clearly loses weight/BF. BUt maybe he would have more energy if he didnt lose it that fast? Maybe he should have quit the cardio for some weeks, would the weightloss stagnate?

[Khazima]

If he can't even figure out his own diet he shouldn't be 'using a little test to maintain muscle mass'. Diet is extremely simple and often way over complicated. Eat less to lose weight eat more to gain weight. Aim for 1-2 pounds a week, if you're losing more you're going to suffer the consequences that come with that (deficiencies, no energy, muscle loss) and if you're not losing enough eat a little less. You should be able to copy and paste this to him with your previous recommendations and he should be good to go.

On second read, being a hypothetical situation of an extreme caloric deficit, the body responds with metabolic adaptations (essentially slowing the metabolism, however much milder than you may think) severe energy loss, binging is often a result, muscle loss and also other issues like hindered concentration and lowered libido/sex drive.

[davidtheman100]

If he's cutting on 500cal below is TDEE opposed to cutting more below, or adding cardio in, it's gonna take him LONGER to cut because he's preserving a little more muscle mass. If he wants to preserve muscle mass then the cut should be much slower??

If he added in cardio to an already 500cal deficit and started to live a more active lifestyle, if he's eating the same amount as before then he WILL be losing more muscle mass than before. Cutting is alot about time IMO and if he's just on a little Test E i don't think it will make a HUGE difference at all if he's in a big deficit. Gotta take it day by day in a slight deficit for a GOOD AMOUNT of time if muscle mass wants to be spared. There is no shortcut in between in this given situation.

[Wintermaul]

On second read, being a hypothetical situation of an extreme caloric deficit, the body responds with metabolic adaptations (essentially slowing the metabolism, however much milder than you may think) severe energy loss, binging is often a result, muscle loss and also other issues like hindered concentration and lowered libido/sex drive.

Thanks for the reply. Its only hypothetical, as i want opinions and the thoughts around the subject. So you think that a miss-calc only leads to energy loss, and maybe some binging. But you still believes he would reach his goal faster? If you diet at a faster rate(read; extreme fatloss/biggest loser-style) you would be low on energy ofcourse, but you would lose more BF in a shorter time-frame. This in mind that it could lead to muscle-loss, even with an anabolic-compund.

[Wintermaul]

If he's cutting on 500cal below is TDEE opposed to cutting more below, or adding cardio in, it's gonna take him LONGER to cut because he's preserving a little more muscle mass. If he wants to preserve muscle mass then the cut should be much slower??

If he added in cardio to an already 500cal deficit and started to live a more active lifestyle, if he's eating the same amount as before then he WILL be losing more muscle mass than before. Cutting is alot about time IMO and if he's just on a little Test E i don't think it will make a HUGE difference at all if he's in a big deficit. Gotta take it day by day in a slight deficit for a GOOD AMOUNT of time if muscle mass wants to be spared. There is no shortcut in between in this given situation.

Thanks for a good reply.
You like the fat-loss route that takes time? So a loss of say 0,5kg in a week 1lbs a week is enough for you? My experince is that a normal gymrat would like to have a short-time on diet, and lose as much as possible during that time. That leads to a fatloss of normally more than 0,5kg/1lbs a week, more like twice that. Even at 1kg/2lbs a week doesnt seem that much if you got a high BF. Or else you would have to diet for 20-30 weeks to get in shape.
Dont get me wrong, if you are like 30% BF it would probably benefit you to do it in a long time, and maybe step it up when you reach like 10%. But people seem to get boring to "go on a diet" for so long.
On extreme diets, people get extreme results.
How do you guys feel on extreme diets? According to some bodybuilders, if you use enough gear/anabolics, you wont lose that much muscle anyway. And then maybe you can shredd fat off in no time. I have no intentions of getting people to try this, but i find it interesting to discuss it.

[RaginCajun]

Apples to oranges when comparing a dedicated bodybuilder to an average Joe

[uhit]

Thanks for a good reply.
You like the fat-loss route that takes time? So a loss of say 0,5kg in a week 1lbs a week is enough for you? My experince is that a normal gymrat would like to have a short-time on diet, and lose as much as possible during that time. That leads to a fatloss of normally more than 0,5kg/1lbs a week, more like twice that. Even at 1kg/2lbs a week doesnt seem that much if you got a high BF. Or else you would have to diet for 20-30 weeks to get in shape.
Dont get me wrong, if you are like 30% BF it would probably benefit you to do it in a long time, and maybe step it up when you reach like 10%. But people seem to get boring to "go on a diet" for so long.
On extreme diets, people get extreme results.
How do you guys feel on extreme diets? According to some bodybuilders, if you use enough gear/anabolics, you wont lose that much muscle anyway. And then maybe you can shredd fat off in no time. I have no intentions of getting people to try this, but i find it interesting to discuss it.

Extreme diets are not viable for long periods of time and henceforth after the 'diet' most people go back to their old ways. Not saying all do, just most.

Best thing always will be to find a sustainable plan and implement it into your lifestyle for the long term.

[MR-FQ320]

I've not read all the thread, but if your friend "extreme dieted" lost say 20% bf and considerable muscle mass, I am willing to say that he could refill out his muscles fairly easily and rapidly, basically equating to zero muscle loss, a couple of weeks of dieting up and carbing up should see him right. If I've missed the point then apologies.

[davidtheman100]

Thanks for a good reply.
You like the fat-loss route that takes time? So a loss of say 0,5kg in a week 1lbs a week is enough for you? My experince is that a normal gymrat would like to have a short-time on diet, and lose as much as possible during that time. That leads to a fatloss of normally more than 0,5kg/1lbs a week, more like twice that. Even at 1kg/2lbs a week doesnt seem that much if you got a high BF. Or else you would have to diet for 20-30 weeks to get in shape.
Dont get me wrong, if you are like 30% BF it would probably benefit you to do it in a long time, and maybe step it up when you reach like 10%. But people seem to get boring to "go on a diet" for so long.
On extreme diets, people get extreme results.
How do you guys feel on extreme diets? According to some bodybuilders, if you use enough gear/anabolics, you wont lose that much muscle anyway. And then maybe you can shredd fat off in no time. I have no intentions of getting people to try this, but i find it interesting to discuss it.

These "Extreme diets" You're referring to are to professional bodybuilders that are on muscle sparing dosages of HGH and Tren and yet they STILL lose some size while cutting... Naturals for example can take 4-5 months cutting for a show because they want to spare as much as possible..

Truth be told it's all about how much muscle you're starting out with, and how much you're willing to lose to get lean. If you're just trying to get lean from being fat, then yes "extreme" dieting can work to an extent as long as it's not a detrimental deficit to your health. If you want to spare some muscle and are only on test-e or are natural, a much slower approach with a small deficit will yield better results AT THE END....BUT it will take a good amount longer... It's all up to what you/he feels is worth it..

[Khazima]

Thanks for a good reply.
You like the fat-loss route that takes time? So a loss of say 0,5kg in a week 1lbs a week is enough for you? My experince is that a normal gymrat would like to have a short-time on diet, and lose as much as possible during that time. That leads to a fatloss of normally more than 0,5kg/1lbs a week, more like twice that. Even at 1kg/2lbs a week doesnt seem that much if you got a high BF. Or else you would have to diet for 20-30 weeks to get in shape.
Dont get me wrong, if you are like 30% BF it would probably benefit you to do it in a long time, and maybe step it up when you reach like 10%. But people seem to get boring to "go on a diet" for so long.
On extreme diets, people get extreme results.
How do you guys feel on extreme diets? According to some bodybuilders, if you use enough gear/anabolics, you wont lose that much muscle anyway. And then maybe you can shredd fat off in no time. I have no intentions of getting people to try this, but i find it interesting to discuss it.

If you need to lose 20-30kg of fat mass then you're obese and a 20-30 week+ phase of dieting is necessary. It's also a lot easier to lose weight when you're that much overweight. So it's not uncommon for these individuals to lose 1-2kg per week effortlessly anyway. At least what we would consider effortlessly (cleaning up the diet and doing a bit of cardio).