Help with cycle - older athlete...

[nycdave]

I am fired up - planning to run a 12 week cycle soon.

My stats:
49 yrs, 5'9 174 lbs, around 11-12% BF. Training steadily since college. I train hard/heavy and diet is pretty clean.

My gear experience
- currently on 200 mg Test-cyp every 8 days (break up into 2 shots every 4 days)
- 100 units of HCG eod
- have done blast/cruise 3 times for 10-12 weeks where I raised test to 400 mg and added Winnie or Anavar. My weight went up to 182 with last blast with 9% BF.
- prone to estrogen-related gyno. Tried Adex but it was ineffective for me even on higher dose. Letro works for me in very small doses to keep gyno away

My proposed cycle:
Wks 1-12: 200 mg test-cyp every 7 days
Wks 1-12: 300 mg tren-e every 7 days
- will run small dose of letro, caber and continue with current HCG dose during cycle.
- After 12 weeks I will go back to my normal TRT dose so no PCT planned.
- will pin every 3.5 days

My questions:
1) do you think I should run Deca with this cycle in a small dose? Have had rotator cuff surgery and ACL repair surgery in the past but fully recovered. Joints are not huge problem.
2) What do you think of my tren dosage?
3) Any other suggestions?

I am trying to move my physique to the next level and am excited to see what tren will do for an "older" (ahem) athlete like me.

Thank you very much for the help. This forum is incredibly valuable to me. Will post a picture to this thread.

[nycdave]

This is a pic of my upper body so you can all see where I am. I have BW every 3 months and will have it again prior to cycle. I donate blood quarterly BTW.

[Bio-Active]

I think before jumping into the tren you should run deca. You could run 500 mg ew of test and add deca. You will gain like crazy. Save the tren for down the road.

[nycdave]

Thank you Bio - do you think that I am not experienced enough for Tren? Also, if I try the deca what would be appropriate dose? Appreciate the advice very much - I can also post pics here to show progress through my cycle.

[Bio-Active]

Thank you Bio - do you think that I am not experienced enough for Tren? Also, if I try the deca what would be appropriate dose? Appreciate the advice very much - I can also post pics here to show progress through my cycle.

Right... Your not ready for tren yet run your deca at 4-500 mg each week

[nycdave]

OK. TY for your comments Bio. Should be able to handle that much gear. Any thoughts from other members also appreciated.

[NACH3]

I agree w/Bio w/what has been discussed... if you've not run any 19nors for a while or ever best to start w/Nandrolone(deca/NPP). The dosages he gave you - you'll grow... Alot(we all know diet dictates our gains) judging by your past progress and pic you'll have a blast on deca...

GL Steve!

[nycdave]

Have to admit that I am a little disappointed. I read the stickie on Tren and was excited to try it - though my first inclination was to do as you have both stated - to run a test/deca cycle.

It seems like a big jump in the amount of gear overall vs what I would have taken with my proposed test/tren cycle. Is that because tren is so much more powerful?

You guys are very knowledgeable BTW. TY again.

[tectime]

These guys have given you great advise. And with where you are from that pic you will love what the deca will add. Great job so far man !

[Bio-Active]

Have to admit that I am a little disappointed. I read the stickie on Tren and was excited to try it - though my first inclination was to do as you have both stated - to run a test/deca cycle. It seems like a big jump in the amount of gear overall vs what I would have taken with my proposed test/tren cycle. Is that because tren is so much more powerful? You guys are very knowledgeable BTW. TY again.

tren is the strongest steroid there is and the sides are real.

[nycdave]

I am excited to start my cycle and see what a deca/test combo will do.

Will save the tren for next year. Realize the sides are real and I don't want to deal with that.

Appreciate the advice.

[AR's King Silabolin]

200 mg is pretty high for TRT. Whats your bloodwork protocol? You manage to keep values within range with this blast and cruise?

Nice genes, impressive shot!

[nycdave]

Agreed. 200 mg is high. I am actually pinning 100 mg every 5 days - I think I stated 4 in the original post.

My doc started with 200 mg every 7 days then increased it to 8 days, then 9 and now 10. I have always broken down into two shots. Fairly dialed in now.

I timed my bw so I would have at least 3 weeks of lower/normal test use before getting levels checked if that makes sense.

[nycdave]

Appreciate the comments on my physique BTW. Have always been a hard gainer so TRT has been spectacular for me. Feel great.

One other observation/question: it seems like the amount of gear each guy typically takes doesn't seem to vary much depending on weight. I would think a guy my size (175 lbs) would need much less vs a guy at 225 lbs.

[Kramer33]

Appreciate the comments on my physique BTW. Have always been a hard gainer so TRT has been spectacular for me. Feel great.

One other observation/question: it seems like the amount of gear each guy typically takes doesn't seem to vary much depending on weight. I would think a guy my size (175 lbs) would need much less vs a guy at 225 lbs.

I'm curious about that too. I'm 245, so would i need more? I'm not as heavy as some of the IFBB Pro heavyweight BBs, but I'm above average size. I feel like I'm trying a moderate dosage for my size.

Good post NYCdave, this is an educational thread.

[Krazydiamond]

Best to save the tren for your next run for the reasons already mentioned. In the meantime deca is a great choice especially for someone with shoulder issues. I'm 44 with rotator cuff pain and adding even 300mg/week works wonders for me.

[NACH3]

I'm curious about that too. I'm 245, so would i need more? I'm not as heavy as some of the IFBB Pro heavyweight BBs, but I'm above average size. I feel like I'm trying a moderate dosage for my size.

Good post NYCdave, this is an educational thread.

This would be individual - as we all want to grow into our cycles... Why run a G of test when your making gains off 5-600mgs wkly? Your just asking for your doses to be higher and higher but, you'd achieve the same w/less.. I hope this makes more sense...

[nycdave]

Kramer33 is right. He is currently 70 lbs heavier vs me (hope to close that gap a bit w/my next cycle - Ha).

But the cycles recommended on this site, novice-intermediate-advanced, don't differentiate based on weight. That seems a little odd.

[nycdave]

Agreed Krazydiamond. Appreciate your feedback. I'm excited to try the deca and hope with a clean diet I can make solid gains without huge bloat.

[tectime]

[QUOTE="I'm excited to try the deca and hope with a clean diet I can make solid gains without huge bloat.[/QUOTE]




You can keep the bloat and water retention associated with deca down no problem. Just keep your estrogen under control and eat good clean meals. With tes around 300/400 mg/wk that will also help with the w/r. allowing the deca to go to work increasing your size. Mainly about estrogen control. For me the lower I keep my e2level the tighter the look.

[TheTaxMan]

You will get great gains off a deca and test cycle, especialy with your base

Good luck keep us updated!

[nycdave]

Yesterday i started a 500 mg test cyp 400 mg deca cycle as suggested earlier in this thread.

Unfortunately, only 12 hrs after my first dose I have developed a gyno lump under my left nipple. Amazingly fast!

I took a small dose of letro with my first shot and was planning to take ED. Have not been taking it prior to the cycle while on TRT. The dose was 5 drops of letro the strength of which is 2.5mg/ml.

My question for you: What to do now? Should I scrap the cycle? Perhaps add another AI? Stay with the cycle and my letro dose and see if gyno clears? Increase letro dose?

I have not gotten BW done immediately pre cycle as I have been on TRT for years without gyno issues. My last BW did not show elevated estrogen levels.

When I had problems with gyno in the past I tried Arimidex but that was not effective for me. That's why I used letro which has been very effective.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated guys. Your advice is incredibly helpful. I asked this question on my old thread because I thought the background might be helpful.

[nycdave]

Also, I have prami on hand but have not started it.

[TheTaxMan]

Never heard of anyone getting gyno symptoms that quick, strange the esters arent even releasing yet.

you tried tamoxifine citrate (nolvadex)?

[nycdave]

Agreed! Such a rapid response. Maybe I psyched myself out since I have had gyno issues before. Ha.

I have not tried Nolva. Don't have it on hand as I won't be doing PCT since I'm on TRT. Great suggestion.

The gyno seems to have eased up a bit since yesterday. Perhaps the letro is having an effect.

[TheTaxMan]

Hopefuly a more experienced member or someone on hrt can help you further

Maybe Austinites sticky about estrogen etc could help you

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...-reversal.html

[NACH3]

It's most likely due to you already having gyno and the influx phase of introducing the hormones(your body adapting)...It is rather quick tho :/ --

Note** I had a similar flare up when starting my last cycle(it definitely came on fast - within a few days) - what dose of letro are you taking(5 drops?)

[nycdave]

Thank you for the responses. I have read that one ML = approx 54 drops, so taking 5 drops is approx .25 mg of letro (since it is dosed at 2.5mg/ML). Is that dose a little low?

NACH, what did you do when you had the flare up? Did you continue on your cycle? Eventually stabilize?

[NACH3]

Thank you for the responses. I have read that one ML = approx 54 drops, so taking 5 drops is approx .25 mg of letro (since it is dosed at 2.5mg/ML). Is that dose a little low?

NACH, what did you do when you had the flare up? Did you continue on your cycle? Eventually stabilize?

Thank you for the dosage breakdown(im not familiar w/letro) - but fortunately mine did clear up.

I think tamox is just as good if not better then Ralox at low doses(10-20mgs ed but frontload 40mgs for first wk) -- I am on Ralox ed.... But the first line of defense is always keeping E2 in check w/AI then being a 19nor I'd start the Prami at .125mgs ed at night titrating up to .25-.5 depending on bw(or you could try and wait till mid cycke bw to see if you need the DA(Prami)...

I'd get Nolva and or Ralox(would be 120mgs for first wk then 60mgs thereafter) And run low dose throughout...

Note** if you can't get it under control then think about re-starting it at a later date(if not controlled)

[nycdave]

Excellent. Thank you for the advice. I will start the Prami and get on the nolvadex as well.

I do hope this stabilizes so I can continue on the cycle. If it doesn't I will stop. In any case I'll get bw either mid cycle or sooner to see if something is going on.

[kelkel]

Why did your previous adex not work? Was it scripted or a research chem?

[nycdave]

The previous arimidex was via RX. Not certain why it didn't work. My doc increased the dose but it didn't slow the gyno.

I then tried the letro and that was effective.

[kelkel]

The previous arimidex was via RX. Not certain why it didn't work. My doc increased the dose but it didn't slow the gyno.

I then tried the letro and that was effective.

Very odd. What Nach said about the low dose nolva (10 mg qd) during cycle would be effective for you, imho.

[nycdave]

Roger that on the Nolva. I will also introduce the Prami tonight.

Would it be wise/smart/stupid to lower the test dose to under 400mg/week (where I am currently dosing the deca) if the gyno persists? I had read that you want to keep the test dose higher vs the deca dose, but is this true? Thank you again for your help gents.

[nycdave]

Quick follow up on my gyno flare-up/cycle adjustment:

- Increased the letro dose yesterday to approx .5mg ED while I wait for the Nolva to arrive
- started Prami at .25mg then increased to .5 yesterday. No sides so far.
- lump under my left nipple softened and is nearly gone. No lumps under right nip. Fired up.
- lowered the test dose to 300mg/wk from 500mg this morning. Left Deca at 400mg/wk.
- Will gradually lower the letro dose back to .25ED.
- Will gradually increase the test dose to 500mg/week if gyno under control
- Feel great and libido is definitely there. No issues from Deca yet though today was only my 2nd pin.

Let me know if you have any other advice here! Thank you guys for the help as always. Nach, I am glad my flare-up; similar to yours; is fading.

[nycdave]

Bumping this up to see if I can get a response to the adjustments I made to my cycle? Do these make sense? Any suggestions?

[nycdave]

Just finishing up a 12 wk Deca/Test Cyp cycle that you all helped with a few months back. Some quick results:

- Weight: from 174 to 186. Used Letro to fight gyno for the first four weeks of this cycle while I waited for Nolvadex. Made almost no progress in terms of strength and weight gain for the first 5 weeks.
- Taking Nolva ed @ 10 mg starting week 5 prevented gyno from growing as suggested here.
- It seems that gains started once Letro discontinued.
- BF at 10.5 vs 11.5 at start of cycle.
- some bloat from deca.

Overall very pleased with cycle results given bad start. Have attached some photos from this week. Thank you everyone for your help - you guys are incredibly knowledgeable.

[nycdave]

Bump

[TheTaxMan]

Looking good Dave, well done, hopefuly you can learn from the bad start for future cycles

[kelkel]

Look good Dave. Sorry I missed your last few posts!