Free training tips from author of the book, "Functional Training with a Fork"!

[Ronnie Rowland]

[B]I'm going to start giving out free daily training tips in this thread.

Free workout tip for today! It's a myth that using a very wide-grip while performing lat pulldowns (as shown in the photo) activate the lats more than using a medium-wide over-hand grip where the hands are placed closer to just beyond shoulder-width apart.

In fact, medium-wide grip lat pull downs (gripping the bar where it begins to curve) are superior for building a wide back because they activate the biceps brachii less and stimulate the broad muscle of the back more.

[marcus300]

A close grip pulldown with palms facing each other is the best way for building width due the insertions of the lats being the furthest part from each other and the further range of motion needed to perform the movement correctly. Dorian talks about this often in all his back workout videos and ive implemented for many years and its produce huge width on myself than any wide grip or medium grip can do.

[NACH3]

A close grip pulldown with palms facing each other is the best way for building width due the insertions of the lats being the furthest part from each other and the further range of motion needed to perform the movement correctly. Dorian talks about this often in all his back workout videos and ive implemented for many years and its produce huge width on myself than any wide grip or medium grip can do.

I have to agree with the above post, as I've implemented CG(palms facing) for pulldowns and the for me the ROM is longer creating the stretching needed for the Lats then full contraction pulling to chest while arching(lumbar part of back creating chest to pop up and out... I can pull it closer to my body w/a slight static hold(1s+) for me it contracs the lats moreso...

I do however, switch these around med grip(or w/palms facing yourself)...

And from my experience only...

[Ronnie Rowland]

A close grip pulldown with palms facing each other is the best way for building width due the insertions of the lats being the furthest part from each other and the further range of motion needed to perform the movement correctly. Dorian talks about this often in all his back workout videos and ive implemented for many years and its produce huge width on myself than any wide grip or medium grip can do.

I respectfully disagree with what Dorian said Marcus and here's why: Dorian had tremendous genetics in his back and he built his lat width earlier in his career by doing medium-wide grip lat-pulldowns and pullups. Then what happened? He tore his bicep tendon and required surgery. It never fully healed so he had to modify his lat training by using a close grip with palms facing together. Performing the close grip version targets the lower lats more than over hand grip pulldowns but it doesn't stimulate the overall lats as much as the wider grip.

Moreover, one can use a dual cable lat pulldown machine (as shown in the photo below) with palms facing forward and stimulate the lats even more than using a standard bar with a medium-wide overhand grip because it allows for a better contraction. However, the guy in the photo needs to be leaning back more with his chest held high in order to effectively active the lats.

[NACH3]

Hey Ronnie,
I used to do the dual cable lay pull down also(prior to switching over to med/med rev grip/& CG) and wide grip pulldown(but this is more difficult for me the wider I go to get a full contraction due to ROM issues in R shoulder)...
Don't you think(in the set up you posted) it's a matter of the width of the cables as well as the person to get that full contraction(most optimal) but still able to do in that set up? I ask b/c I've done it that way and just in my experience my back thickened when I went to CG/med rev & med much more... I most likely wasn't doing them right - and I'll admit it wasn't HIT style lol

[Ronnie Rowland]

Hey Ronnie,
I used to do the dual cable lay pull down also(prior to switching over to med/med rev grip/& CG) and wide grip pulldown(but this is more difficult for me the wider I go to get a full contraction due to ROM issues in R shoulder)...
Don't you think(in the set up you posted) it's a matter of the width of the cables as well as the person to get that full contraction(most optimal) but still able to do in that set up? I ask b/c I've done it that way and just in my experience my back thickened when I went to CG/med rev & med much more... I most likely wasn't doing them right - and I'll admit it wasn't HIT style lol

NACH3 when you are using the dual cable lat pulldown machine with separate handles it doesn't keep your hands in a fixed position like the bar. Therefore, it puts less stress in the bicep brachii, shoulder, and cervical spine. It also allows you to move the hands a little bit outward on the down stroke which causes the lats to contract harder. You can't get that same effect with a bar. I think you'll find if you go back to doing medium-grip dual cable lat pulldowns (with separate handles and palms facing forward) your back will get more pumped, sorer, and wider in comparison to the close grip versions. I also think you weren't using enough volume and intensity earlier. I like doing at least 6 sets of this exercise to good failure once a week.

In addition, I have found that leaning back further than you normally would when performing close grip pulldowns (palms facing each other) can build thickness in the back. Some do well pulling it down near their upper belly button. It's like a cross between a pulldown and row.

[marcus300]

I respectfully disagree with what Dorian said Marcus and here's why: Dorian had tremendous genetics in his back and he built his lat width earlier in his career by doing medium-wide grip lat-pulldowns and pullups. Then what happened? He tore his bicep tendon and required surgery. It never fully healed so he had to modify his lat training by using a close grip with palms facing together. Performing the close grip version targets the lower lats more than over hand grip pulldowns but it doesn't stimulate the overall lats as much as the wider grip.

Moreover, one can use a dual cable lat pulldown machine (as shown in the photo below) with palms facing forward and stimulate the lats even more than using a standard bar with a medium-wide overhand grip because it allows for a better contraction. However, the guy in the photo needs to be leaning back more with his chest held high in order to effectively active the lats.

No Ronnie your wrong regarding dorian and i can prove it not only with dorian but with myself but I can see your here to promote your book and methods so I'll leave it alone but anyone with any knowledge on how the lats work understands.

Best of luck

[BG]

No Ronnie your wrong regarding dorian and i can prove it not only with dorian but with myself but I can see your here to promote your book and methods so I'll leave it alone but anyone with any knowledge on how the lats work understands.

Best of luck

100% agreed

[BG]

Ronnie didnt you get the idea when your thread self promoting yourself was deleted from the lounge ? That was a very bad look, not one person replied besides your secondary accounts or friends you had post in them. It wouldn't be bad if you actualy contributed around here, but you only come around if it furthers you.

[novastepp]

Just thinking about a physiology and biomechanics standpoint, the lats originate at the spine and insert at the humerus. To get maximum stretch and therefore, tension during contraction, close grip is the best hand placement. Then also consider the objective of the contraction is to flex the muscle, or shorten the muscle fibers, with the grain. This is where unknown genetic disposition comes into play. From my experience, some lats converge in a slightly more lateral pattern, and some at a more pronounced vertical oblique pattern. To be honest, each person will have their own "sweet spot" when it comes to grip width. The optimal point is to stretch your lats as far as safely possible and fully contract them.

When anyone finds a position that leads to the most growth, they need not vary from that position to fully work the lats.

[marcus300]

Just thinking about a physiology and biomechanics standpoint, the lats originate at the spine and insert at the humerus. To get maximum stretch and therefore, tension during contraction, close grip is the best hand placement. Then also consider the objective of the contraction is to flex the muscle, or shorten the muscle fibers, with the grain. This is where unknown genetic disposition comes into play. From my experience, some lats converge in a slightly more lateral pattern, and some at a more pronounced vertical oblique pattern. To be honest, each person will have their own "sweet spot" when it comes to grip width. The optimal point is to stretch your lats as far as safely possible and fully contract them.

When anyone finds a position that leads to the most growth, they need not vary from that position to fully work the lats.

Your 100% correct Nova in what you stated and to add further credibility to my thoughts and opinions on the matter if your visualise your lat insertion and then think of your lats like an elastic band if you stretch and contract the lats in a position were there are the furthest distance apart of the insertions you have the best scenario to build them bigger due to the bigger stretch and strongest contraction.

If you constantly stretch an elastic band to its fullest or a muscle eventually that muscle/ band will become more slack and room to grow this will cause them to grow and expand outwards. So the closer the hands the biggest stretch possible will occur on the lats. Before I go on any further I don't just recommend one exercise for lat width I really think many different width grips is the best way forward but no means a medium grip will make your lats the biggest and I will give a personal example.

when I prolapsed a disc in my back many years ago the hospital and consultant told me to stop training which at the time was am impossibility so I had a friend who was Dorians adviser at the time and he put onto Dorians chiropractor and physio who treats athletes. I was put on a regime of purely thickness exercises. I drooped deads completely even though I was a huge dead lifter I took them out and all I did was many different rows for thickness and he told me to do close grip pull down because this will increase the lats and make them explode outwards in width. I did this for over 12 month the main priority was thickness to help build rods of steel around my spine to help my disc issues. 12-18 months later my back blow out of control and the thickness was insane and width was fuking remarkable all from one movement close grip pull downs. When I had clients I would tell then the same when they were struggling with width and everyone made gains. Picture of my back below relaxed from pure thickness from the results of the above routine





Ronnie, Dorian didn't build his back from medium grip pulldowns in his early career and he didn't inury his bicep doing wide grip pulldowns either. All DY's injuries came within 2-4 weeks out from a contest because he trained the same way as he did in the off season when in contest mode- he states this here in an interview with him, also second video shows DY showing why close grip pulldowns are better for the lats


I don't really want to go over and over this with you Ronnie because in all honesty its got nothing what so ever to do with building a big thick wide back. It's about promoting your book and Ronnie if you want some advice I would hold back from all the old friends who have suddenly appeared on every thread you make about your book who haven't been on the forum for years promoting evey word you say and also the false accounts in every thread you start about selling your book.
To be very honest and straight to the the point I would think an outsider wouldn't buy it because of how your going about promoting it. It reminds me of one of these sneaky reps on other boards promoting generic gh. Have you ever thought about doing a proper sales attack and promotions for your book like giving it away to some guys in here who would give honest feedback? Not sure if you would get good or bad feedback but it would be a honest true review of the book from people who know what they are talking about and who have lived and breathed the sport, that's just an idea of the top of my head but it looks better than how its being promoted in this forum because all it seems to be doing is giving it a bad rap and also the forum.

Don't take anything I've said as an attack I'm actually trying to help you otherwise your going to be losing all credibility extremely fast which would hurt sales of your book IMHO. I class you has a good friend and in my own honest way trying to help you see what things are looking like from an outsider looking in.


Best of look I am out of here

[NACH3]

Your 100% correct Nova in what you stated and to add further credibility to my thoughts and opinions on the matter if your visualise your lat insertion and then think of your lats like an elastic band if you stretch and contract the lats in a position were there are the furthest distance apart of the insertions you have the best scenario to build them bigger due to the bigger stretch and strongest contraction.

If you constantly stretch an elastic band to its fullest or a muscle eventually that muscle/ band will become more slack and room to grow this will cause them to grow and expand outwards. So the closer the hands the biggest stretch possible will occur on the lats. Before I go on any further I don't just recommend one exercise for lat width I really think many different width grips is the best way forward but no means a medium grip will make your lats the biggest and I will give a personal example.

when I prolapsed a disc in my back many years ago the hospital and consultant told me to stop training which at the time was am impossibility so I had a friend who was Dorians adviser at the time and he put onto Dorians chiropractor and physio who treats athletes. I was put on a regime of purely thickness exercises. I drooped deads completely even though I was a huge dead lifter I took them out and all I did was many different rows for thickness and he told me to do close grip pull down because this will increase the lats and make them explode outwards in width. I did this for over 12 month the main priority was thickness to help build rods of steel around my spine to help my disc issues. 12-18 months later my back blow out of control and the thickness was insane and width was fuking remarkable all from one movement close grip pull downs. When I had clients I would tell then the same when they were struggling with width and everyone made gains. Picture of my back below relaxed from pure thickness from the results of the above routine





Ronnie, Dorian didn't build his back from medium grip pulldowns in his early career and he didn't inury his bicep doing wide grip pulldowns either. All DY's injuries came within 2-4 weeks out from a contest because he trained the same way as he did in the off season when in contest mode- he states this here in an interview with him, also second video shows DY showing why close grip pulldowns are better for the lats


I don't really want to go over and over this with you Ronnie because in all honesty its got nothing what so ever to do with building a big thick wide back. It's about promoting your book and Ronnie if you want some advice I would hold back from all the old friends who have suddenly appeared on every thread you make about your book who haven't been on the forum for years promoting evey word you say and also the false accounts in every thread you start about selling your book.
To be very honest and straight to the the point I would think an outsider wouldn't buy it because of how your going about promoting it. It reminds me of one of these sneaky reps on other boards promoting generic gh. Have you ever thought about doing a proper sales attack and promotions for your book like giving it away to some guys in here who would give honest feedback? Not sure if you would get good or bad feedback but it would be a honest true review of the book from people who know what they are talking about and who have lived and breathed the sport, that's just an idea of the top of my head but it looks better than how its being promoted in this forum because all it seems to be doing is giving it a bad rap and also the forum.

Don't take anything I've said as an attack I'm actually trying to help you otherwise your going to be losing all credibility extremely fast which would hurt sales of your book IMHO. I class you has a good friend and in my own honest way trying to help you see what things are looking like from an outsider looking in.


Best of look I am out of here

In bold - is exactly what I thought of after reading the statement of how Dorian hurt his Biceps(it's in tons of his YouTube vids etc... He admits to training too heavy 2-4 wks out causing his bicep tear(very late in his career) if I'm not mistaken it was his last Mr. O(he still won) and maybe the German Grand Prix(or that's where he moved BBing to freak status

Furthermore, if any of my clients have flexibility problems... The first thing I do is try to lengthen them... Creating that elasticity for a better and full contraction - I mostly see this in the hamstrings(which could lead to a weak core)/lower abs/tightness in thoracic spine(rounding)/hip flexibility and so on

[marcus300]

In bold - is exactly what I thought of after reading the statement of how Dorian hurt his Biceps(it's in tons of his YouTube vids etc... He admits to training too heavy 2-4 wks out causing his bicep tear(very late in his career) if I'm not mistaken it was his last Mr. O(he still won) and maybe the German Grand Prix(or that's where he moved BBing to freak status

Furthermore, if any of my clients have flexibility problems... The first thing I do is try to lengthen them... Creating that elasticity for a better and full contraction - I mostly see this in the hamstrings(which could lead to a weak core)/lower abs/tightness in thoracic spine(rounding)/hip flexibility and so on

Injury video and explains why he had them

[marcus300]

In bold - is exactly what I thought of after reading the statement of how Dorian hurt his Biceps(it's in tons of his YouTube vids etc... He admits to training too heavy 2-4 wks out causing his bicep tear(very late in his career) if I'm not mistaken it was his last Mr. O(he still won) and maybe the German Grand Prix(or that's where he moved BBing to freak status

Furthermore, if any of my clients have flexibility problems... The first thing I do is try to lengthen them... Creating that elasticity for a better and full contraction - I mostly see this in the hamstrings(which could lead to a weak core)/lower abs/tightness in thoracic spine(rounding)/hip flexibility and so on

Explains why close grip is better for width , but like ive said this thread isn't about back or building muscle its about selling a book

[Ronnie Rowland]

No Ronnie your wrong regarding dorian and i can prove it not only with dorian but with myself but I can see your here to promote your book and methods so I'll leave it alone but anyone with any knowledge on how the lats work understands.

Best of luck

Marcus I am not wrong about Dorian. He used to use wide grip pullups to build his back. It even had him on national television demonstrating them! He was performing wide grip pullups with his body weight and his lats were huge! I also read an article in a muscle magazine many years back about Dorians bicep tendon injury. After the injury he could no longer perform wide grip pullups without experiencing great discomfort so he changed over to close grip pulldowns and was able to train without irritating his bicep tendon. Maybe he liked the close grip better after he started using them, but it was probably due to them being more user friendly. His lats attached very low, so for him they may have worked better. Who knows!? But for the masses a medium to wide grip builds the widest lats.

Moreover, Dorian swore that a lot of his lat width, if not most, came from doing pullovers on a machine.

This thread is not all about promoting my book as you will see as time moves forward. I'm going to be giving away free training tips I have learned as a personal trainer for 32 years. Yes I will be promoting my book along with LowTestosterone.com because I believe everyone (including you) will learn something from my book and I believe there's a lot of people who need Testosterone Therapy.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Ronnie didnt you get the idea when your thread self promoting yourself was deleted from the lounge ? That was a very bad look, not one person replied besides your secondary accounts or friends you had post in them. It wouldn't be bad if you actualy contributed around here, but you only come around if it furthers you.

I've contributed plenty on this board and will continue to do so. Your words are a huge disappointment!

[Ronnie Rowland]

Workout tip for today!

The Seated Rotation Machine is dangerous and counterproductive!
It supposed to work the obliques, but the pelvis doesn't move with the chest. This faulty exercise machine puts excessive twisting forces on the spine and causes the love handles to stick out even farther- hence making your waist wider, not slimmer.

Find out more here- http://www.amazon.com/Functional-Tra.../dp/069250236X

[GirlyGymRat]

Workout tip for today! The Seated Rotation Machine is dangerous and counterproductive! It supposed to work the obliques, but the pelvis doesn't move with the chest. This faulty exercise machine puts excessive twisting forces on the spine and causes the love handles to stick out even farther- hence making your waist wider, not slimmer. Find out more here- http://www.amazon.com/Functional-Tra.../dp/069250236X

I stopped using this machine for this exact reason!!! My fork is a more effective tool!

[marcus300]

Marcus I am not wrong about Dorian. He used to use wide grip pullups to build his back. It even had him on national television demonstrating them! He was performing wide grip pullups with his body weight and his lats were huge! I also read an article in a muscle magazine many years back about Dorians bicep tendon injury. After the injury he could no longer perform wide grip pullups without experiencing great discomfort so he changed over to close grip pulldowns and was able to train without irritating his bicep tendon. Maybe he liked the close grip better after he started using them, but it was probably due to them being more user friendly. His lats attached very low, so for him they may have worked better. Who knows!? But for the masses a medium to wide grip builds the widest lats.

Moreover, Dorian swore that a lot of his lat width, if not most, came from doing pullovers on a machine.

This thread is not all about promoting my book as you will see as time moves forward. I'm going to be giving away free training tips I have learned as a personal trainer for 32 years. Yes I will be promoting my book along with LowTestosterone.com because I believe everyone (including you) will learn something from my book and I believe there's a lot of people who need Testosterone Therapy.

You are wrong I was in the same circle as Dorian at the time but like I said don't worry about, we can agree to disagree.

I'll leave it alone now don't want it to become a pissing match mate

[Ronnie Rowland]

You are wrong I was in the same circle as Dorian at the time but like I said don't worry about, we can agree to disagree.

I'll leave it alone now don't want it to become a pissing match mate

Sounds good to me..Thanks!

[Ronnie Rowland]

I stopped using this machine for this exact reason!!! My fork is a more effective tool!

GirlyGymRat your are 100 correct! This faulty exercise machine is among the most popular for new gym members because they wrongly think it's going to remove their love handles.

[Proximal]

I've been reading what is above regarding the lats. Perhaps everyone should check some EMG studies on activation of the latissimus dorsi muscle with various exercises and see what everyone finds. I checked really quickly a moment ago and the winner (barely) was an underhanded grip, pulled to the sternum.

With that said, everyone has to take into account the complexity of the muscle. It also serves as an adductor and an internal rotator, so changes in positions are going to vary the length / pre-stretch of the muscle, perhaps thats why the EMG studies that I found were not very supportive of one exercise over another.

Additionally, you have to also then do an EMG study of the biceps during the different variations. It should appear to be stronger with an underhand grip, which would mean then it should make it easier on the lats instead of harder, go figure.

I'm not Dorian's therapist, but I can tell you that the position of the arm for anyone with a biceps tendon injury during pull-downs would likely be less painful to the biceps tendon with a closer grip, because it should cause less friction against the acromion process of the scapula. So what Ronnie said makes absolute sense about the change in grip.

[marcus300]

I'm not Dorian's therapist, but I can tell you that the position of the arm for anyone with a biceps tendon injury during pull-downs would likely be less painful to the biceps tendon with a closer grip, because it should cause less friction against the acromion process of the scapula. So what Ronnie said makes absolute sense about the change in grip.

Forget about DY's bicep injury, DY built and advices close grip pulldowns for building the lats because the two insertions are at the furthest away from each other resulting in the greatest stretch and better contraction. Ronnie thinks DY started close grip due to his bicep injury but that's total bull. There isn't one exercise for wide lats there are various ones and the best one for that person is the one what works for them but logically think about the lats and what I said.

DY's Chiropractor TOLD me to do close grip aswell as Paul who was DY's adviser to get wider lats, the reason I went to see DY's was due to my lower back injury and I wanted to build thickness in my back to help take tension off my disc but I was concerned about width and they all told me to do close grip like DY's had been doing for yrs along side all the thickness movements and the results are the photo above.

Like ive mentioned the thread isn't about helping people with training its to help Ronnie sell his book which is fair enough but what was pissing me off was all the false followers and old accounts who are friends of Ronnies who were just blowing smoke up his arse with every word he said about his book which was the worse promotion of a book ive seen, it was obvious what was happening and I was trying to explain what it looked like to a guy reading the forum.

I wake up and open this thread first thing in the morning, big mistake

I am going to keep out of it from now on, its like the blind leading the blind

Part of an interview with Dorian Yates below regarding back -

The Myth of Wide-grip Superiority

One myth that has held back the development of lats the world over is the persistent idea that using a wide grip on chins and pulldowns is the best way to build wider lats. This myth probably has its origins in the fact that using a wide grip on any vertical pulling motion will selectively recruit the smaller upper back muscles like the teres major and minor, the upper portion of the traps, and the rhomboids.

When a bodybuilder feels these smaller muscle groups at the top of the back working, he often assumes he is making his lats wider. But the lats actually originate under the armpits and insert near the waist. Using a wide grip does not provide anywhere near a full range of motion for them. A narrower grip, in contrast, allows both a better stretch and a more complete contraction. If you don’t believe me, pantomime two types of pulldowns right now as you read this, doing your best to contract the lats as hard as possible: a wide-grip pulldown and a narrow, underhand grip. I guarantee you that you will feel a more powerful contraction of the lats with the narrow underhand grip.

In my early career, I experimented with various types of grips, and I found that using a closer grip with the hands either parallel (facing each other) or fully supinated (underhand) actually provided the best contraction and most complete range of motion for the lats. Throughout my Mr. Olympia reign, I never did a single set of wide-grip chins or lat pulldowns. My two choices for vertical pulling were always a narrow underhand grip for lat pulldowns, which I would go up to 400 pounds on, and the Hammer Strength Iso-lateral pulldown machine.

A final reason to consider using a narrow grip beyond the issue of range of motion is the fact that it puts the biceps in a stronger position. Since the biceps are far smaller and weaker than the lats, putting them in a position where they are guaranteed to fail before the lats are properly stimulated, as in any wide-grip vertical pull, will cause you to shortchange your potential growth. As I said before, I preferred a close-grip cable pulldown, usually with an underhand grip. This provides the most complete range of motion for the lats and also puts the biceps in the strongest pulling position possible.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I agree that the very wide grip is less effective with pulldowns. I also agree with Dorian than pullovers on a machine do a great job stimulating lat width.

In regard to EMG studies you can't always go by that. For example, EMG studies show that the decline bench press is slightly better than the flat bench press, but people who have a barrel chest (e.g., Arnold) get more stimulation from the flat bench press. However, I get more chest development from declines because my front delts and triceps are stronger.

I think it can depend on how someone is built. I've seen long-armed guys build wide lats using a very wide grip. Also, when I tried the underhand version of rows that Dorian used my dominant biceps took over too much of the movement. The main thing is that we all agree that a wider grip is not better!

[novastepp]

Forget about DY's bicep injury, DY built and advices close grip pulldowns for building the lats because the two insertions are at the furthest away from each other resulting in the greatest stretch and better contraction. Ronnie thinks DY started close grip due to his bicep injury but that's total bull. There isn't one exercise for wide lats there are various ones and the best one for that person is the one what works for them but logically think about the lats and what I said. DY's Chiropractor TOLD me to do close grip aswell as Paul who was DY's adviser to get wider lats, the reason I went to see DY's was due to my lower back injury and I wanted to build thickness in my back to help take tension off my disc but I was concerned about width and they all told me to do close grip like DY's had been doing for yrs along side all the thickness movements and the results are the photo above. Like ive mentioned the thread isn't about helping people with training its to help Ronnie sell his book which is fair enough but what was pissing me off was all the false followers and old accounts who are friends of Ronnies who were just blowing smoke up his arse with every word he said about his book which was the worse promotion of a book ive seen, it was obvious what was happening and I was trying to explain what it looked like to a guy reading the forum. I wake up and open this thread first thing in the morning, big mistake I am going to keep out of it from now on, its like the blind leading the blind Part of an interview with Dorian Yates below regarding back - The Myth of Wide-grip Superiority One myth that has held back the development of lats the world over is the persistent idea that using a wide grip on chins and pulldowns is the best way to build wider lats. This myth probably has its origins in the fact that using a wide grip on any vertical pulling motion will selectively recruit the smaller upper back muscles like the teres major and minor, the upper portion of the traps, and the rhomboids. When a bodybuilder feels these smaller muscle groups at the top of the back working, he often assumes he is making his lats wider. But the lats actually originate under the armpits and insert near the waist. Using a wide grip does not provide anywhere near a full range of motion for them. A narrower grip, in contrast, allows both a better stretch and a more complete contraction. If you don't believe me, pantomime two types of pulldowns right now as you read this, doing your best to contract the lats as hard as possible: a wide-grip pulldown and a narrow, underhand grip. I guarantee you that you will feel a more powerful contraction of the lats with the narrow underhand grip. In my early career, I experimented with various types of grips, and I found that using a closer grip with the hands either parallel (facing each other) or fully supinated (underhand) actually provided the best contraction and most complete range of motion for the lats. Throughout my Mr. Olympia reign, I never did a single set of wide-grip chins or lat pulldowns. My two choices for vertical pulling were always a narrow underhand grip for lat pulldowns, which I would go up to 400 pounds on, and the Hammer Strength Iso-lateral pulldown machine. A final reason to consider using a narrow grip beyond the issue of range of motion is the fact that it puts the biceps in a stronger position. Since the biceps are far smaller and weaker than the lats, putting them in a position where they are guaranteed to fail before the lats are properly stimulated, as in any wide-grip vertical pull, will cause you to shortchange your potential growth. As I said before, I preferred a close-grip cable pulldown, usually with an underhand grip. This provides the most complete range of motion for the lats and also puts the biceps in the strongest pulling position possible.

Excellent advice! I appreciate how much of your personal, and background, knowledge you share with us here.

[Proximal]

Sorry I stepped into this. Regarding the EMGs, of course they aren't 100%, but they lend a little more objectivity to the argument.

Regarding the change in grip, I agreed with Ronnie in that it would make sense to change the grip due to the biceps injury, not that it would add or not add development to the lats.

Bottom line, not siding with anyone - just putting 40 years of experience and education out there. New to the forum and learning a lot from everyone in a subject I'm not as familiar with (steroids) and it is appreciated. Just wanted to contribute knowledge that I have in exchange.

[Ronnie Rowland]

If you have shoulder pain while performing lateral raises try this version! Perform the lateral raise unilaterally (one arm at a time) with a sideways lean. Grab onto a power rack or other heavy object, lean your body to the side and lift with one arm holding a dumbbell or handle on a cable machine.

This really targets the medial delts by placing a greater overload at the top of the movement and it puts less wear and tear on the supraspinatus tendon.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Training tip for today. 💪😉 It's best to avoid performing deadlifts with a straight bar because they put you in an awkward position and are notorious for damaging the spine!

If you want to perform deadlifts it's best to use a Hex Bar.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Workout tip for today💪😊 Some people lack the flexibility needed to do unsupported squats without a heel lift (as shown in the photo).

Putting some weighted plates or a board under the heels allows them to remain in contact with the floor. This helps prevent your center of gravity from being pulled forward and the lower back coming into play to compensate. When the lower spine comes into play it takes a significant load off the targeted muscles and can destroy the spinal discs!