If not Winny or Anavar, what?

[DefAtty]

Hey,

I'm completely new. I have a very limited knowledge base. I've read all the locked intro threads that start off the forum, but I have a lot more to learn. A great way to research any topic is to not only read, but talk to experts as well. I'm here to talk. I've done some research about winny and anavar. Here is what I've learned:
1. Do not do a oral only cycle without test.
2. The reason is suppression; you will become lethargic, lack energy, lose libido, and be dissatisfied with your results. Test will mitigate these effects by replacing the body's natural T production.
3. The PCT is going to be a nightmare.
3. You're a wuss if you do an oral only cycle. (Augustine); there seems to be a consensus or mind set that if you aren't willing to go to certain lengths (like injectables) then you're not really ready to do a cycle and such stick to diet and exercise. My workouts are very good. My diet could use some shoring up because the kids like the occasional ice cream or pizza. Sometimes it's hard to say no, but my diet is pretty rigorous as well.

Here are my questions:

1. Why doesn't test cause suppression on a level comparable to winny or anavar?
2. If someone is considering doing a cycle, and they would very much like the positive effects on strength and leaning out, what are the options other than test.? I honestly don't want to put on 10-15 pounds. There are a lot of reasons. After training since I was 15 (35 now) it would be a red flag to a lot of people. I'm in a profession where something like that could be a big issue. I also have to wear suits everyday. I can't afford a new wardrobe. I'd like to be leaner, but retain the mass I have. The strength bonus is a huge plus. What are the options besides Anavar and Winstrol? I'm not crazy about needles. If they're avoidable - great, but I'll use them if they are the best option.

My post may be slightly premature. I have no source, but there is no reason to start laying the foundation for that if there is no way to try a cycle that won't also cause me to put on too much mass. I understand most users desire to get bigger. My desire is to get stronger and stay athletic while leaning down some. Plus, after 25 years of saying no to gear, I;m curious now. I'd like to just wade in rather than jumping off a cliff.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. And I;m not thin-skinned, so I can handle any response telling me I'm a dummy, too. Just looking for info. Thanks, everyone.

[jstone]

Test shuts you down as well, but while your on cycle you replace you endogenous testosterone with exogenous. Then pct helps you recover your natural test levels.

you can get a form of testosterone that is an oral. I dont know alot about it, but you have to take it multiple times daily. Injectable test is the way to go.

if gaining 15 pounds is something that would cause you problems, you should stay away from everything.

You could look into sarms, but most of them should have test used as a base as well. Gw50156 might not require a test base and will helo you get leaner. With your goals you would be best of with extra cardio and diet changes. I would only use test if your diagnosed with low t. Your goals dont require a cycle.

[ScotchGuard02]

Hey,

I'm completely new. I have a very limited knowledge base. I've read all the locked intro threads that start off the forum, but I have a lot more to learn. A great way to research any topic is to not only read, but talk to experts as well. I'm here to talk. I've done some research about winny and anavar. Here is what I've learned:
1. Do not do a oral only cycle without test.
2. The reason is suppression; you will become lethargic, lack energy, lose libido, and be dissatisfied with your results. Test will mitigate these effects by replacing the body's natural T production.
3. The PCT is going to be a nightmare.
3. You're a wuss if you do an oral only cycle. (Augustine); there seems to be a consensus or mind set that if you aren't willing to go to certain lengths (like injectables) then you're not really ready to do a cycle and such stick to diet and exercise. My workouts are very good. My diet could use some shoring up because the kids like the occasional ice cream or pizza. Sometimes it's hard to say no, but my diet is pretty rigorous as well.

Here are my questions:

1. Why doesn't test cause suppression on a level comparable to winny or anavar? I'm not quite sure of this question. They all cause suppression. The exogenous Test level due to winny and Anavar may not be as his as straight Test and therefore the suppression is less (all depends on dosage). Having said that, as with all suppression just make sure you have good PCT ready.
2. If someone is considering doing a cycle, and they would very much like the positive effects on strength and leaning out, what are the options other than test.? I honestly don't want to put on 10-15 pounds. There are a lot of reasons. After training since I was 15 (35 now) it would be a red flag to a lot of people. I'm in a profession where something like that could be a big issue. I also have to wear suits everyday. I can't afford a new wardrobe. I'd like to be leaner, but retain the mass I have. The strength bonus is a huge plus. What are the options besides Anavar and Winstrol? I'm not crazy about needles. If they're avoidable - great, but I'll use them if they are the best option. A lower dose Test E cycle shouldn't put on a lot of weight. BTW, the weight gain is largely due to what you eat. Control your diet and you can get lean, gain 5lbs, and get stronger. If you want a really mild cycle I would run straight Anavar. There is a lot of feeling on this board that no oral should be run without Test. I do agree with that. However, Anavar would be the only oral I would run without Test. I've run several Anavar only cycles with good results. I gained about 5lbs and got a little stronger, maybe increased 10% on my bench, and recovered with PCT with no problem.

My post may be slightly premature. I have no source, but there is no reason to start laying the foundation for that if there is no way to try a cycle that won't also cause me to put on too much mass. I understand most users desire to get bigger. My desire is to get stronger and stay athletic while leaning down some. Plus, after 25 years of saying no to gear, I;m curious now. I'd like to just wade in rather than jumping off a cliff. One thing I've noticed with gear is it's addictive nature. I don't mean physical addiction like heroin. I mean psychological addiction to the added strength, the cut lines in the abs, the endurance during workout, the admiring looks of women, it's really hard to go back to "normal".

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. And I;m not thin-skinned, so I can handle any response telling me I'm a dummy, too. Just looking for info. Thanks, everyone.

Like any other decision, running gear has it's plus and minus. Just make sure you do a lot of reading and ask a lot of questions before you start. I have just see too many guys rush into gear and get hurt. "Hurt" being defined as affecting natural Test production so having to get on TRT or libido problems or other sexual issues. IMO, if the only thing moving you towards gear is curiosity then it's best to stay natural. If after research, you make a conscientious decision to go on gear, start slow and error on the side of safety. My .02

[DefAtty]

Scotch,
Thanks, dude. I appreciate the feedback. The psychological hook is something that occurred to me. Well, not in those terms, but looking down the road I've wondered why start at all if you plan not make it a lifestyle change. Your and istone's answers about Test make perfect sense. I think how emphatic other forum members are about not running winny or anvar without test made me think that orals are somehow more oppressive to natural T production.

[DefAtty]

istone,
I think you're right about my goals. I think part of my newfound interest is for the first time I don't feel like a 25 year old - I feel like the 35 year old (36 in two months) that I am. Even with the extra energy, strength, and overall vigor that comes with diet and exercise, I just can't compete with what I was ten year's ago.

[DefAtty]

For PCT, what are we talking about on a Anvar only cycle? Clomid or Nolvadex? Those are about the only names I see when there is a discussion of PCT.

[Dr. Anavario]

Looking to start a stack of Var, Test and Carderine (GW-501516).

GW doesn't need to be stacked to work. It's a weight loss, cardio endurance supplement. I'd you're just looking for energy and to lean out a bit without any growth, that might be a good alternative.

You can certainly do an Anavar cycle without test, it just won't work nearly as well. But you will see some gains from it. Test is like hyper mode for Anavar.

PCT from Var isn't bad either as its one of the more milder, less side effected AAS out there.

[jstone]

istone,
I think you're right about my goals. I think part of my newfound interest is for the first time I don't feel like a 25 year old - I feel like the 35 year old (36 in two months) that I am. Even with the extra energy, strength, and overall vigor that comes with diet and exercise, I just can't compete with what I was ten year's ago.

I will be 35 in a few months and know exactly what you mean. Especially lately, Im tired of pinning and trt, so I stopped a while a go. Its really starting to catch up with me the last couple days. Im sure I will give in and go back, but I just wanted to not jab myself with a needle for a few weeks.

[DefAtty]

Thanks, Doc A. The GW sounds awfully interesting. It's certainly something I will check out. It seems to hit on several of my interests. So, you mentioned the stack, obviously a person's primary purpose on stacking those three would be to lean out a good deal (GW and Var), but at the same time trying to hold on to as much lean body mass as possible (Var and Test), I'm assuming. Is this a common stack or just some creative combo work on your part?

[DefAtty]

istone, I'm sure the needles must get old. I don't have any fear of needles (I've been in the ER enough where if I had some type of phobia of needles/stitches it would have presented itself long ago). It just feels like the pinning adds a layer of complexity to the whole thing. I don't know, I think I am probably making the usual, rote mistakes all newbies make, looking for some easier, softer way to approach a cycle.