Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism Question

[jvirus72]

Basic question
I believe I have ASIH, and after being clean for a year and some months my symptoms have not gotten better comparative of how I felt before my one and only cycle. I have ready many forums discussing and HTPA restart (Espcially Dr. Scally's). and I think that doing an entire test cycle (Test E 250 E3D for 12 weeks), and then coming off with Clomd, Nolva, Arimidex, and HCG (Dr. Scally's Power PCT) I can get my HTPA to restore my FSH levels as well as my Original T level. If I can get restored, I might discontinute

Any thoughts, opinions are welcomed. I was following guidence by my Competition prep coach, and is the reason why I didn't use HCG. I feel that wsa a huge mistake, but it wont be repeated. I've used the search and have come across many articles and posts suggesting what I should do. However if there are any endocrinologists out there that think there is an easier fix I'm ears open!

Stats:
26
5'7"
194lbs
16-18%BF (as of today, currently dieting down )

Lifting for 11 years.
S/B/DL/OHP - 450/370/430/250

Cycle history

2015 -
June - Aug = 400 Test C - 10 wks
Sep - Oct = Test/Mast/Prop (100/100/100 E3D) -4 weeks
Oct-Nov - Clomid 50mg Letro (Forgot exact dosage) - 4 weeks

2016
Clomid - 50 mg ED
Letro ED - 4 weeks (Attempted mini-HTPA restart)
Clean after until now

I have had 3 blood tests after, unfortunately I forgot to get bloods before and during

.

Feb 2016

Testosterone , Serum (404) 348-1197 ng/dL 01
Luteinizing Hormone LH - (2.5) 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL 01
FSH, Serum (0.4) LOW 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL 01

Estradiol (19.5) 7.6-42.6 pg/mL

August 2016

Testosterone, Serum (474) 348-1197 ng/dL 01

Luteinizing Hormone(LH), (5.0) 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL
FSH, Serum (0.5) LOW 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL
Estradiol (33.1) 7.6-42.6 pg/mL



October 2016

October 14th

Total Testosterone (271) 241-827
LH 2.8
FSH 0.4
Prolactin 4.9

October 26th
Total Testosterone (310) 241-827


The range says I'm fine, and my Veterans Affairs doctor doesn't think I need any help. However after the cycle last year I've felt very out of energy, very hard to diet for bodyfat, tired in the gym (almost feel like I'm moving in syrup if that makes sense), Erectile dysfuction <--- Huge, I used to be very very sexually charged and libido was high before that cycle. I noticed ED as the first major symptom (which never happened before, ever) during PCT, and after.

[600@50]

There is always a chance that you don't recover after a cycle. Sorry you're having a rough time man. I'm not sure another cycle and then pct is the way to go. I've had one friend do Scally's Power PCT after being on a relatively high dose of aas for over 3 years and he restarted his HPTA. He got his test levels back into the mid 500 range. Not saying this is what you need to do but it's an option. There's plenty more guys on here with more PCT experience that I'm sure can point you in the right direction. Best of luck man.

[Marsoc]

I never cycled and am new to this..but is what your talking about ..your natural test production is messed up now? And if so. Will a pct help restore it possibly even after it's been messed up. I was assuming once it was messed up that it was messed up for life ..

[Marsoc]

True or. false

[Mr.BB]

Its completely wrong to touch steroids now, that is, if you want our HPT axis back.

You should attempt a proper restart, as you PCT were quite poor. Letro is not useful in PCT, it is a very powerful AI, it will zero your e2 which is not healthy or helpful for your hormonal pathways.

Protocol for power PCT:

1000ui HCG EOD for 10 days

3 days after HCG:
Clomid ed 75-50-50-50
Tamox ed 40-20-20-20-20-20

For proper evaluation do hormone bloodwork the day after last HCG shot. If testicles were responsive to the HCG (high total test), continue to clomid/tamox therapy. If testicles did not respond you will need TRT, no point in continuing with clomid/tamox.

Following bloodwork should be done 8 weeks after.

Everyone doing steroids need to be aware that this can happen, dont think it will only happen to others.

[bobtail]

It's a sad fact that isn't discussed enough but we pretty much all end up on TRT after awhile.
In this game, you play, you pay.

In all honesty, I don't think an endo is going to do you much good. Most of them don't know shit about this and he/she will probably just put you on TRT.

That being said, time might help. After being on TRT for 6 years, I took a year off and when I started back my test was right where it was 6 years prior. So who knows?

Sorry your having a rough go of it.

[Marsoc]

How is it possible at all to start your system back up after damaged. With another pct regardless if it's proper this time or not. Once it's gone isn't it gone. Or can it be jump started again possibly..?

[600@50]

How is it possible at all to start your system back up after damaged. With another pct regardless if it's proper this time or not. Once it's gone isn't it gone. Or can it be jump started again possibly..?

I always thought the same thing. Until my buddy who was taking relatively high dosages of various compounds for several years got his test levels back into the 500s by doing the power pct protocol. He may have just gotten lucky too. Even though a 500ish test level isn't high at least it's something. He says he feels good too.

[Mr.BB]

How is it possible at all to start your system back up after damaged. With another pct regardless if it's proper this time or not. Once it's gone isn't it gone. Or can it be jump started again possibly..?

If PCT doesn't work there's nothing else to do, you need to go TRT, or live with low test.

It can comeback or not, nobody knows. Again, there are no guarantees, but it also doesn't happen to everyone.

[charger69]

It's a sad fact that isn't discussed enough but we pretty much all end up on TRT after awhile. In this game, you play, you pay. In all honesty, I don't think an endo is going to do you much good. Most of them don't know shit about this and he/she will probably just put you on TRT. That being said, time might help. After being on TRT for 6 years, I took a year off and when I started back my test was right where it was 6 years prior. So who knows? Sorry your having a rough go of it.

Endo in US will probably reject TRT off the bat because test levels are within range (regardless of high or low). Also, they would probably ask for free test results.

[cousinmuscles]

How is it possible at all to start your system back up after damaged. With another pct regardless if it's proper this time or not. Once it's gone isn't it gone. Or can it be jump started again possibly..?

It does not necessarily go away just because of being suppressed once. What happens is that there is a negative feedback loop happening over and over - high test levels signal no production needed, suppressing FSH and LH (the hormones which signal the testicles to produce testosterone). Over time the low FSH/LH becomes the new "normal" as the body finds homeostasis in that current state. Upon cessation of AAS the brain will not instantly detect low serum test and increase LH/FSH, it will take time before they go up, thus the signalling to the testicles to produce testosterone will be impaired. Usually it returns to normal though I wouldn't rely on that, and besides that you will for sure experience a state of low test. The PCT with SERMS is just that, it is there to kick start the recovery process by increasing FSH/LH and inducing a new "normal", a new homeostasis, similar to that before the cycle. I don't think it would be different if the PCT is done right after a cycle or later on, in regards to jump starting the HPTA. Though if you wait, that low test/low estrogen period will feel horrible I imagine and will not make it easy to retain the gains.

Though the whole HPTA axis gets worse with age and eventually we all need TRT. If you read what the old members say over and over, is that every cycle brings you one step closer to the need for TRT. So in one way you could imagine that it damages and ages the HPTA, if it is the same type of damage that happens with aging (as with everything else in our bodies) I don't know. At least we can be grateful that the internet allows us to exchange this information and minimize the losses

[jvirus72]

Its completely wrong to touch steroids now, that is, if you want our HPT axis back.

You should attempt a proper restart, as you PCT were quite poor. Letro is not useful in PCT, it is a very powerful AI, it will zero your e2 which is not healthy or helpful for your hormonal pathways.

Protocol for power PCT:

1000ui HCG EOD for 10 days

3 days after HCG:
Clomid ed 75-50-50-50
Tamox ed 40-20-20-20-20-20

For proper evaluation do hormone bloodwork the day after last HCG shot. If testicles were responsive to the HCG (high total test), continue to clomid/tamox therapy. If testicles did not respond you will need TRT, no point in continuing with clomid/tamox.

Following bloodwork should be done 8 weeks after.

Everyone doing steroids need to be aware that this can happen, dont think it will only happen to others.

Thank you for all of the great responses!
Yes, I understand that I've played the roulette and might have caught the bullet.
I will take all of these in account,
I've researched on some peer reviewed articles.
It seems the best thing would be to Try scally's HTPA restart and hope for the best.

If my HPTA doesn't repair or come atleast close TRT might be something I have to consider, because I feel very empty as a person at the moment.


EDIT: I forgot to mention I tried a shot of triptorelin a few months ago, if that matters.

I will keep this forum updated, and will order HCG/Clomid/Nolva

However I've read that there was a change
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day

What say Y'all for the 1000 - EOD 10 days vs 2500 EOD 16?

[Bonaparte]

I would do something similar to that Power PCT protocol, but use 100mg of toremiphene instead of clomid and nolva.

[Mr.BB]

Thank you for all of the great responses!
Yes, I understand that I've played the roulette and might have caught the bullet.
I will take all of these in account,
I've researched on some peer reviewed articles.
It seems the best thing would be to Try scally's HTPA restart and hope for the best.

If my HPTA doesn't repair or come atleast close TRT might be something I have to consider, because I feel very empty as a person at the moment.


EDIT: I forgot to mention I tried a shot of triptorelin a few months ago, if that matters.

I will keep this forum updated, and will order HCG/Clomid/Nolva

However I've read that there was a change
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day

What say Y'all for the 1000 - EOD 10 days vs 2500 EOD 16?

That was a big mistake. Triptorelin is used to induce castration...

IMO your HCG and clomid dosage is too high.

[Bonaparte]

That was a big mistake. Triptorelin is used to induce castration...

IMO your HCG and clomid dosage is too high.

Depends on the dose. Small doses of 50-100 mcg can supposedly increase gonadotropins, whereas large doses are used to shut down the HPTA.

[jvirus72]

That was a big mistake. Triptorelin is used to induce castration...

IMO your HCG and clomid dosage is too high.

You are correct, at higher dosages trip does cause castration. However there is a study done that used it to successfully restore an HTPA.

Anabolic steroids purchased on the Internet as a cause of prolonged hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
Pirola I1, Cappelli C, Delbarba A, Scalvini T, Agosti B, Assanelli D, Bonetti A, Castellano M.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To report a case of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism due to the chronic abuse of anabolic steroids purchased over the Internet.
DESIGN:
Case report.
SETTING:
Endocrinology unit of the University of Brescia.
PATIENT(S):
A 34-year-old man.
INTERVENTION(S):
A single dose (100 μg) of triptorelin (triptorelin test).
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S):
Clinical symptoms, androgen normalization, levels of serum testosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone.
RESULT(S):
Within 1 month, the patient's serum testosterone was in the normal range, and he reported a return to normal energy and libido.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20416868


Of course i want to be careful with HCG, so as to not desensitize the boys. I think I would rathe start on the lower end and see if there is a dose-testosterone relationship at all.