Is Genetic Potential Bullcrap?

[MToption2]

Let's take two identical people. Clones.
Both clones are exactly the same in everything. Same diet, same physique, same lifestyle, same training, etc.
Both clones decide they want to start going to the gym seriously. Neither have reached their "genetic potential".

Clone A trains naturally
Clone B trains chemically enhanced

Both continue on living exactly the same.
For example, 2-5 years later: Clone B is still enhanced at this point:
Disregard the side effects Clone B is experiencing and the fact that he never cycled off.

Clone A has now reached his genetic potential.
Clone B somehow hasn't reached his genetic potential?

I call BS on this claim.
It seems like that people who never really worked out actually respond much greater to AAS than people who have been training for years.

Clone A wonders why Clone B is so much bigger than him. Clone B tells him about his steroid usage.
Clone A decides to take steroids as well.

Some time goes by and Clone A is now bigger.
Except, Clone A is now only the same size as Clone B.
Both of their total progress results are now equal.

So far, from reading peoples steroid experiences over the years, I think genetic potential is largely a myth. It seems like the only logical reason to train naturally than use gear later in life is too reduce TOTAL time under the influence to reduce accumulating side effects building especially shutdown.

What do you think?

[jackfrost88]

Interesting hypothetical. I would think that in your example Clone A would actually be bigger than clone B after steroid usage. My reasoning would be that clone A had to streamline his diet and training, experience plateaus, switch up his training methods and go through a longer period of trail and error to experience growth. Clone B would not be incentivized nearly as much as Clone A because of the quicker and easier gains as well as his ability to stray away from a solid diet / training schedule (relatively speaking) without seeing the same ill effects as Clone A.

My hunch is that (and I could be completely wrong, maybe someone can correct me on this), given the same knowledge which is doubtful, Clone A would still be bigger because of his bodies time training without gear and once he takes the same amount his body would respond much better. Kind of like A higher powered engine eating up the better fuel compared to a civic.

But definitely the training and diet part along with the "journey" of a natural lifter I think would translate to greater gains than an uneducated person jumping on the sauce and getting away with easy results with little fundamentals.

Just my 2c

[MToption2]

Interesting hypothetical. I would think that in your example Clone A would actually be bigger than clone B after steroid usage. My reasoning would be that clone A had to streamline his diet and training, experience plateaus, switch up his training methods and go through a longer period of trail and error to experience growth. Clone B would not be incentivized nearly as much as Clone A because of the quicker and easier gains as well as his ability to stray away from a solid diet / training schedule (relatively speaking) without seeing the same ill effects as Clone A.

My hunch is that (and I could be completely wrong, maybe someone can correct me on this), given the same knowledge which is doubtful, Clone A would still be bigger because of his bodies time training without gear and once he takes the same amount his body would respond much better. Kind of like A higher powered engine eating up the better fuel compared to a civic.

But definitely the training and diet part along with the "journey" of a natural lifter I think would translate to greater gains than an uneducated person jumping on the sauce and getting away with easy results with little fundamentals.

Just my 2c

That makes sense if this experiment was run in the real world.
But in this hypothetical scenario, both clones train and eat exactly the same at all points. That also means both clones have the exact same knowledge and mentality.
In the very end, after the AAS cannot provide any additional gains for either clones, in my opinion, there would be no difference in muscle between Clone A & B.

[jackfrost88]

That makes sense if this experiment was run in the real world.
But in this hypothetical scenario, both clones train and eat exactly the same at all points. That also means both clones have the exact same knowledge and mentality. In the very end, in my opinion, muscle gains are totally equal.

It's hard to do, but in a vacuum you could be right. I have heard others talk about sensitivity to steroids as well which could be a factor. I still would have to bet that the clone who waited to use gear would get more out of it. That being said, people throw around the word genetic potential way too often and I can see where your coming from. It's an easy cop out when more work, diet change or training methods are needed.

Age would also play a role where a guy who stayed natural longer until his hormones fully matured, would have a greater base to fall back on when cycling off. But this would not be an issue if the other clone was 100% committed to being on a good amount of gear for the rest of his life. In a vacuum I can see your theory being more plausible but nobody lives in a vacuum.

[AR's King Silabolin]

I really dont see why this example got anything to do with analyzing on genetic potensial.

A bettre example would be done with two guys. A had superior athletic parrents. B had skinfat parrents who never succeded in any sport.
Give those two the same PT, same program, same diett, same lifestyle and after 5 years, same drugs.

But we already know the outcome. Genetics is everything. So im really not getting what ur up to.

[Richard Cabeza]

This is interesting

[MToption2]

I really dont see why this example got anything to do with analyzing on genetic potensial.

A bettre example would be done with two guys. A had superior athletic parrents. B had skinfat parrents who never succeded in any sport.
Give those two the same PT, same program, same diett, same lifestyle and after 5 years, same drugs.

But we already know the outcome. Genetics is everything. So im really not getting what ur up to.

"Genetic potential" isn't about the status of the parents. It's about total gains made throughout someones life. A total noob can start taking steroids and reach their natural genetic potential faster than he would training naturally. He is now able to reach his genetic potential in 2 years instead of 5. He later cycles off PCT successfully and his hormone levels are 100% back to pre-steroid levels. He is now natty stuck at his natty genetic potential. Technically, the biggest he'll ever be.

[MToption2]

It's hard to do, but in a vacuum you could be right. I have heard others talk about sensitivity to steroids as well which could be a factor. I still would have to bet that the clone who waited to use gear would get more out of it. That being said, people throw around the word genetic potential way too often and I can see where your coming from. It's an easy cop out when more work, diet change or training methods are needed.

Age would also play a role where a guy who stayed natural longer until his hormones fully matured, would have a greater base to fall back on when cycling off. But this would not be an issue if the other clone was 100% committed to being on a good amount of gear for the rest of his life. In a vacuum I can see your theory being more plausible but nobody lives in a vacuum.

Yeah good points man. The hypothetical provided assumes both clones are fully matured (i.e. two 30 year olds)

[Marsoc]

Let's take two identical people. Clones.
Both clones are exactly the same in everything. Same diet, same physique, same lifestyle, same training, etc.
Both clones decide they want to start going to the gym seriously. Neither have reached their "genetic potential".

Clone A trains naturally
Clone B trains chemically enhanced

Both continue on living exactly the same.
For example, 2-5 years later: Clone B is still enhanced at this point:
Disregard the side effects Clone B is experiencing and the fact that he never cycled off.

Clone A has now reached his genetic potential.
Clone B somehow hasn't reached his genetic potential?

I call BS on this claim.
It seems like that people who never really worked out actually respond much greater to AAS than people who have been training for years.

Clone A wonders why Clone B is so much bigger than him. Clone B tells him about his steroid usage.
Clone A decides to take steroids as well.

Some time goes by and Clone A is now bigger.
Except, Clone A is now only the same size as Clone B.
Both of their total progress results are now equal.

So far, from reading peoples steroid experiences over the years, I think genetic potential is largely a myth. It seems like the only logical reason to train naturally than use gear later in life is too reduce TOTAL time under the influence to reduce accumulating side effects building especially shutdown.

What do you think?

He can the one using synthetic hormone reach natural genetic potential if he been juicing the whole time...genetic potential is the amount of mass or whatever you body can naturally sustain within reason I believe..not sure wht your getting at .it good to have questions though. Keep learning

[Marsoc]

I really dont see why this example got anything to do with analyzing on genetic potensial.

A bettre example would be done with two guys. A had superior athletic parrents. B had skinfat parrents who never succeded in any sport.
Give those two the same PT, same program, same diett, same lifestyle and after 5 years, same drugs.

But we already know the outcome. Genetics is everything. So im really not getting what ur up to.

You sir are red and knowledgeable

[songdog]

No you are wrong the guy who reached his natty limit can push through and add more.While the bean pole who is lazy will look like he got bigger quicker but often times gets hurt becuse he is pushing weights his tendons and ligaments can't handle.And they most always lose all they gained beacuse they don't know wat they are doing training wise or eating wise.There are no short cuts it's been tried over and over so don't think for a minute you got some hot idea on a shortcut too getting big.And the lazy bean pole will have too live on aas too keep his size.And other bright ideas? There is a thread on this For guy who want to gain 25lbs on cycle read it.

[tice1212]

No you are wrong the guy who reached his natty limit can push through and add more.While the bean pole who is lazy will look like he got bigger quicker but often times gets hurt becuse he is pushing weights his tendons and ligaments can't handle.And they most always lose all they gained beacuse they don't know wat they are doing training wise or eating wise.There are no short cuts

Totally agree.

[cousinmuscles]

No you are wrong the guy who reached his natty limit can push through and add more.While the bean pole who is lazy will look like he got bigger quicker but often times gets hurt becuse he is pushing weights his tendons and ligaments can't handle.And they most always lose all they gained beacuse they don't know wat they are doing training wise or eating wise.There are no short cuts it's been tried over and over so don't think for a minute you got some hot idea on a shortcut too getting big.And the lazy bean pole will have too live on aas too keep his size.And other bright ideas? There is a thread on this For guy who want to gain 25lbs on cycle read it.

I was about to say this.

Your body adapts to the stimuli (training) by getting bigger and stronger, though eventually an equillibrium is reached and you need to change or increase the stimuli. Then you need to learn to tweak other things in the process, such as rest and diet. With steroids you increase anabolic factors and decrease catabolic factors, so you can gain at a faster rate and you can reach new highs. Though if you do not even know how to break plateaus and know what type of training you respond best to, how much rest you need (some respond better to higher frequency), how to gain but not get fat, how to cut but not lose muscle... then you may be doing a shitty job with training, diet and rest, but getting results due to steroids. But you would never know.

Personally I train for strength primarily and I get a better look as a side effect. It took time for my body to adapt to heavy lifting, and proper form. I have never suffered a long lasting injury from lifting though, even though some times I had to take breaks from certain exercises. During my first cycle I added 10kg to my deadlift and 5kg to my bench, every week, for many weeks in a row. I could feel strains on my joints, more pronounced than ever before - the new highs on deadlifts hurt like hell, and my elbow felt like it had been drilled into from presses. If I did a cycle early in my training I would have gained more for sure, though with the type of training I do I might have not had time for the joints to adapt, and who knows... arthritis for life? A serious fuck up during a lift, due to bad form?

In the end, if you enjoy training you will train naturally anyway. You will come to a point where gains are slow, and you have tried many methods and you have your own system.

[MToption2]

I was about to say this.
If I did a cycle early in my training I would have gained more for sure, though with the type of training I do I might have not had time for the joints to adapt, and who knows... arthritis for life? A serious fuck up during a lift, due to bad form?

In the end, if you enjoy training you will train naturally anyway. You will come to a point where gains are slow, and you have tried many methods and you have your own system.

Honestly, the way you guys describe "genetic potential", you sure you don't mean "training experience"?
In a vacuum, both clones trained and ate the exact same at all times. That means the clone who was on steroids didn't push beyond what his ligaments/tendons couldn't handle.

But in the real world, this isn't how it's played out. As all you guys have obviously explained.
But that doesn't necessarily prove "genetic potential". It only proves that no one should start taking steroids until their diet and training are in check.

What I don't understand is how getting that figured out would take longer than a year if you're serious. With an experienced trainer supervising, this "dialing" down could significantly accelerate.

--
I'll put it another way:

Let's say someone who trains 10 years naturally decides to run a Test cycle. After X amount of time, cycles off, gained 10 pounds of muscle, restores 100% HPTA function but loses 5 pounds muscle. Still retains 5 pounds solid muscle. Those 5 pounds retained could have been gained naturally then right? His hormone levels are now completely back to pre-cycle levels. If he cycles again with the exact same AAS, he should only be able to gain 5 pounds on cycle instead of another 10.

Let's say someone else who has the exact same background as the above guy decides to run, gains 10 pounds, safely cycles off. Restores 100% function but this time loses all 10 pounds!! That would mean this second guy actually reached his natural "genetic potential" before taking steroids. Therefore, the only way he can be bigger is to stay on steroids for as long as possible.

Let's take my final hypothesis, take a complete noob. Never worked out a day in his life. Immediately put him on steroids. (His meal and workout plan doesn't matter as long as he stays consistent throughout the rest of his life). His much accelerated gains continues until he plateaus. Cycles off and also restores 100% function. Loses and retains a large chunk of muscle. Only this time, he can no longer gain anymore muscle. This guy also has now reached his natural genetic potential. The only difference being he got there much faster than either of the other two guys.

As long as the lifter recovers 100%, there is no reason why he couldn't reach his natural genetic potential much faster using steroids.

Someone please provide a counterargument

[tice1212]

Genetic limits only excuse if ur natural IMO.
If u want to get to 235lbs fvcking do it.
90% won't get to 200lbs @ sub10%bf @ 5'7 the reason I believe is they don't know what it takes, even on gear they don't know meal timing or training protocols and rest patterns. Once u get past 200lbs all of those facts play a HUGE role not "genetic limits".
I think it's a load of sh*t.

The reason why the dude that got to his "natural body potential" first without touching gear will make huge gains is because he knows the work it takes to get where he wants..

Quick story: April 22 2016 I was 182lbs 14%bf 5'7 (diet iifym, training 7 days a week, resting 8hr a night, 7cycles previous)

Realized I looked like shit got a coach and hired a workout trainer

November 22, 2016, 232lbs 13% 5'7 (3 days on 1 day off, bro diet, 1 full day of rest and naps)
The rest I had to stop is because my heart couldn't take the weight. My body hurt and I knew I was to heavy for my weight. Oh and 2 cycles to get there) very low dosages as well...
50lbs in 8 months
I could have kept going. But my body never adjusted to the weight. I started to lean out now 7%195-197lbs I will try again the end of the year.
FVck Max body potential.

[cousinmuscles]

Honestly, the way you guys describe "genetic potential", you sure you don't mean "training experience"?
In a vacuum, both clones trained and ate the exact same at all times. That means the clone who was on steroids didn't push beyond what his ligaments/tendons couldn't handle.

But in the real world, this isn't how it's played out. As all you guys have obviously explained.
But that doesn't necessarily prove "genetic potential". It only proves that no one should start taking steroids until their diet and training are in check.

What I don't understand is how getting that figured out would take longer than a year if you're serious. With an experienced trainer supervising, this "dialing" down could significantly accelerate.

--
I'll put it another way:

Let's say someone who trains 10 years naturally decides to run a Test cycle. After X amount of time, cycles off, gained 10 pounds of muscle, restores 100% HPTA function but loses 5 pounds muscle. Still retains 5 pounds solid muscle. Those 5 pounds retained could have been gained naturally then right? His hormone levels are now completely back to pre-cycle levels. If he cycles again with the exact same AAS, he should only be able to gain 5 pounds on cycle instead of another 10.

Let's say someone else who has the exact same background as the above guy decides to run, gains 10 pounds, safely cycles off. Restores 100% function but this time loses all 10 pounds!! That would mean this second guy actually reached his natural "genetic potential" before taking steroids. Therefore, the only way he can be bigger is to stay on steroids for as long as possible.

Let's take my final hypothesis, take a complete noob. Never worked out a day in his life. Immediately put him on steroids. (His meal and workout plan doesn't matter as long as he stays consistent throughout the rest of his life). His much accelerated gains continues until he plateaus. Cycles off and also restores 100% function. Loses and retains a large chunk of muscle. Only this time, he can no longer gain anymore muscle. This guy also has now reached his natural genetic potential. The only difference being he got there much faster than either of the other two guys.

As long as the lifter recovers 100%, there is no reason why he couldn't reach his natural genetic potential much faster using steroids.

Someone please provide a counterargument

I don't claim anything about genetic potential. I just see it as the rate at which you gain. I don't see a "max", just that gains slow down considerably, and thus everyone has their own stage where even a year of training will make a tiny difference. I know many people who grew to be much bigger than theyd ever be if they never did AAS, and they kept pretty much all their gains. They trained for years and years and their size is simply their new normal for their body. You don't lose the gains just because you stop juicing.

It will take more than a year because each training program/method will take its time for the results to show. And then you need to compare these programs/methods. Then you have to figure out if your diet was equally effective during all programs. Then you need to tweak the program to your own body, for example figure out your recovery ability compared to volume and intensity.

If the clones trained and ate exactly the same, they will gain pretty much the same. Your strength and stamina will increase on steroids and if you don't utilize that, then obviously you wont make much use of it.

I don't think anyone would disagree that a beginner can reach some specific point in training faster with steroids than without.

[evanescent]

'Genetic Potential' is essentially the bodily % of muscle you can sustain with your natural testosterone production.

It's the reason why your gains slow down as your body devotes more testosterone to maintenance as opposed to growth. Testosterone production is naturally finite, unless you can somehow acquire more than 2 testicles.

Steroids can be used as a shortcut to reach this potential (as I am considering) but as mentioned earlier, you risk injuring other bodily parts that don't benefit from equal growth as the muscle grows disproportionately. Plus it is widely considered that muscle gained under steroid usage isn't as resilient to wastage when you stop.

[MToption2]

Quick story: April 22 2016 I was 182lbs 14%bf 5'7 (diet iifym, training 7 days a week, resting 8hr a night, 7cycles previous)

Realized I looked like shit got a coach and hired a workout trainer

November 22, 2016, 232lbs 13% 5'7 (3 days on 1 day off, bro diet, 1 full day of rest and naps)
The rest I had to stop is because my heart couldn't take the weight. My body hurt and I knew I was to heavy for my weight. Oh and 2 cycles to get there) very low dosages as well...
50lbs in 8 months
I could have kept going. But my body never adjusted to the weight. I started to lean out now 7%195-197lbs I will try again the end of the year.
FVck Max body potential.

Wow nice! There are variables though. You hired a coach/workout trainer. Same type of steroids?
Btw, 197 lbs @ 7% BF 5'7"...that's amazing!

[MMA_Influenced]

I strongly suspect it is bullcrap to an extent. I think it is possible to use steroids to possess a physique that is above and beyond your genetic potential.

As we all know is far easier to MAINTAIN strength and muscle than it is to BUILD. Therefore it seems logical to me that if you can build using a cycle you can push and maintain a higher physique than you could of ever built naturally. How much so Im not sure. It requires reaching the limits of your natural clean potential and then seeing what happens after a few cycles where you can level off natty.

But I also think to an extent is IS real. Obviously you cant maintain all the muscle you gain on steroids if your huge. So obviously the natural body can only produce so much.

As for genetic potential in natty body building? Hell yeah its real. Natty Testosterone levels and other genetic factors definitely play a part and dont fool yourself that they dont. There are guys who naturally have 2 or 3 times as much test as the next guy. Also bone structure has a hell of a lot to do with it to.

Take a guy with an ectomorphic bone structure with 410 natural testosterone. Bring a guy in with a mesomorphic thicker frame and 1000 natural testosterone. There aint no 2 ways about it the one guy will always be sugnificiantly bigger than the other if both are working out. Hell the mesomorph can likely half ass his work outs and diet and still be a lot bigger than the skinny guy with the lower test. Its genetics man its real. See the NFL.

[MToption2]

'Genetic Potential' is essentially the bodily % of muscle you can sustain with your natural testosterone production.

It's the reason why your gains slow down as your body devotes more testosterone to maintenance as opposed to growth. Testosterone production is naturally finite, unless you can somehow acquire more than 2 testicles.

Steroids can be used as a shortcut to reach this potential (as I am considering) but as mentioned earlier, you risk injuring other bodily parts that don't benefit from equal growth as the muscle grows disproportionately. Plus it is widely considered that muscle gained under steroid usage isn't as resilient to wastage when you stop.

I don't claim anything about genetic potential. I just see it as the rate at which you gain. I don't see a "max", just that gains slow down considerably, and thus everyone has their own stage where even a year of training will make a tiny difference. I know many people who grew to be much bigger than theyd ever be if they never did AAS, and they kept pretty much all their gains. They trained for years and years and their size is simply their new normal for their body. You don't lose the gains just because you stop juicing.

It will take more than a year because each training program/method will take its time for the results to show. And then you need to compare these programs/methods. Then you have to figure out if your diet was equally effective during all programs. Then you need to tweak the program to your own body, for example figure out your recovery ability compared to volume and intensity.

If the clones trained and ate exactly the same, they will gain pretty much the same. Your strength and stamina will increase on steroids and if you don't utilize that, then obviously you wont make much use of it.

I don't think anyone would disagree that a beginner can reach some specific point in training faster with steroids than without.

Okay. We are in 90% agreement.

as mentioned earlier, you risk injuring other bodily parts that don't benefit from equal growth as the muscle grows disproportionately.

Disproportionate muscle growth can happen just as much with natural lifters.

Plus it is widely considered that muscle gained under steroid usage isn't as resilient to wastage when you stop.

All Test steroids supply extra Test. Your natural hormones cannot sustain that extra mass after cycling off. If your HPTA recovers 100%, you should only lose muscle until you reached your natural genetic limit in relation to pre-cycle natural genetic limits.
If you take Test, you have a new limit available.
If you take Tren, you have a newer limit available.

I understand diet and training variables play a big role in changing genetic potential even for nattys.

It will take more than a year because each training program/method will take its time for the results to show. And then you need to compare these programs/methods. Then you have to figure out if your diet was equally effective during all programs. Then you need to tweak the program to your own body, for example figure out your recovery ability compared to volume and intensity.

Well, the IIFYM lifestyle is what most people would ever need or end up doing anyway.
I think you learn more about your body the first 12 months of serious weightlifting, than the following year. After the first year, I already knew which body parts were lagging, already knew the correct form to prevent joint issues, already knew which exercises I was best at, already knew which isolation movements to keep or scrap. There wasn't too much change the following years despite frustrating plateaus with chest and ab development.

[MToption2]

I strongly suspect it is bullcrap to an extent. I think it is possible to use steroids to possess a physique that is above and beyond your genetic potential.

As we all know is far easier to MAINTAIN strength and muscle than it is to BUILD. Therefore it seems logical to me that if you can build using a cycle you can push and maintain a higher physique than you could of ever built naturally. How much so Im not sure. It requires reaching the limits of your natural clean potential and then seeing what happens after a few cycles where you can level off natty.

But I also think to an extent is IS real. Obviously you cant maintain all the muscle you gain on steroids if your huge. So obviously the natural body can only produce so much.

As for genetic potential in natty body building? Hell yeah its real. Natty Testosterone levels and other genetic factors definitely play a part and dont fool yourself that they dont. There are guys who naturally have 2 or 3 times as much test as the next guy. Also bone structure has a hell of a lot to do with it to.

Take a guy with an ectomorphic bone structure with 410 natural testosterone. Bring a guy in with a mesomorphic thicker frame and 1000 natural testosterone. There aint no 2 ways about it the one guy will always be sugnificiantly bigger than the other if both are working out. Hell the mesomorph can likely half ass his work outs and diet and still be a lot bigger than the skinny guy with the lower test. Its genetics man its real. See the NFL.

I'm saying the steroid guy can get to his natural genetic potential and beyond. Then cycle off and END off back to his pre-cycle natural genetic potential given he's restored 100%.
If a lean 150 pound guy has the natural genetic potential to reach 170 same leanness. Getting there will take a few years.
He gets on steroids. Gets to natural genetic limit of 170. Keeps going til 190. Gets off steroids. If he recovers completely, the best he could retain is still 170. Instead of obtaining his natural genetic potential NATURALLY, he could reach it chemically enhanced sooner. Saving time aka shortcut.

What everyone here is saying is that in the real world, it's safer to train naturally for a while first to understand training/body responses/diet. But if a person already completely understands these things and plans on being on steroids in a few years later anyway. Doing it sooner would save him time. Otherwise he's just spinning his wheels in the meantime. He might think his natural genetic potential for leanness is 180 when it's really 170.

If someone reaches their real natural potential naturally, like after years and years of training, then decides to take steroids. After PCT, he should lose ALL his new gains if his lifestyle regresses back to pre-cycle.

Therefore, it would be better time wise for the gambling man who also has the health knowledge to start steroids sooner rather than later. With the end goal being at his NATURAL limit after cycling off.
One could advertise that as, "hey you can get to your natural genetic potential much faster than training naturally. The risk for endocrine dysfunction being 25% (made up #) after cycling off."

But here's something important. If he trains naturally to get to his natural limit and then decides to take steroids. The risk is still 25% and if he is unfortunately in that 25%, he could end up worse than pre-cycle post-PCT!!!

If you steroid guy trains safely, the risks are the same at either points.

Its genetics man its real. See the NFL.

I always see it as whites have to work twice as hard as blacks and east asians have to work four times as hard.

[cousinmuscles]

All Test steroids supply extra Test. Your natural hormones cannot sustain that extra mass after cycling off. If your HPTA recovers 100%, you should only lose muscle until you reached your natural genetic limit in relation to pre-cycle natural genetic limits.
If you take Test, you have a new limit available.
If you take Tren, you have a newer limit available.

Anabolic and catabolic hormones are not the only factors. You have muscle memory too https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24167222
You can very well retain muscle gained from AAS use, I have plenty of friends I have known for years who have proven this.

Well, the IIFYM lifestyle is what most people would ever need or end up doing anyway.
I think you learn more about your body the first 12 months of serious weightlifting, than the following year. After the first year, I already knew which body parts were lagging, already knew the correct form to prevent joint issues, already knew which exercises I was best at, already knew which isolation movements to keep or scrap. There wasn't too much change the following years despite frustrating plateaus with chest and ab development.

Sounds like you are saving time and taking shortcuts The number of possible variations in training methods is large, and you'd have to both read some scientific literature and try out for yourself. Due to weight training being a novel stimuli the first year, you may very well be lead to believe that what you are doing is whats best for you, and have the potential to get better but think this is your limit.

I know for example my results now are sub optimal because I don't have the time to perfect my diet and rest. I eat IIFYM because I work 80+ hours per week. I have experienced better gains with better meal timing.

[MToption2]

Anabolic and catabolic hormones are not the only factors. You have muscle memory too https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24167222
You can very well retain muscle gained from AAS use, I have plenty of friends I have known for years who have proven this.



Sounds like you are saving time and taking shortcuts The number of possible variations in training methods is large, and you'd have to both read some scientific literature and try out for yourself. Due to weight training being a novel stimuli the first year, you may very well be lead to believe that what you are doing is whats best for you, and have the potential to get better but think this is your limit.

I know for example my results now are sub optimal because I don't have the time to perfect my diet and rest. I eat IIFYM because I work 80+ hours per week. I have experienced better gains with better meal timing.

Acknowledged. Thanks!