Losing gains after cycle....

[AlphaMindz]

Ok guys let's get to the bottom of this once and for all...

I'm not a scientist and I'm not going to provide ref's cause I'm not getting graded on this but I'm going to speak from experience.. both personal and my peers' experience..

There may be exceptions as with everything, but IME what I've noticed is that it's pretty much impossible to keep the gains made during a cycle. Now, having said that, let me clarify.....

Let's say you run a 15 weeker and put on ~20 lbs with ~7 of it being muscle (which is a successful cycle IMO) how much of that can one realistically expect to keep once their hormone levels drop back down to normal physiological levels...? Let's say your Test levels were 800 before your cycle, and during cycle went up to 2,500... Your body is operating with supraphysiological levels of testosterone and the anabolic/catabolic ratio is directly related to the hormone content in the body..So is the size and strength of the muscle cells. Why would it make sense for us to believe that the muscle built with a Test level of 2,500 can be sustained at a significantly reduced level of 800..?

Now....I'm not saying ALL gains will be lost, but I'm relatively certain that the majority of gains will deteriorate over time as the anabolic/catabolic ratio goes back to normal and the body no longer has the hormone content to support the extra muscle that you're genetically programmed not to be able to build in the first place..

Please keep in mind I'm only talking about muscle size and strength.. I'm not even talking about the appearance of the muscle, because that's a whole different issue and for sure one cannot maintain anywhere close to the "look" one gets while "on"..

So what's my point...?? What I'm saying is don't start using steroids under the false assumption that you can do a few cycles, build the muscle you want, and walk away with a bodybuilder physique without having to upkeep your hormone levels. It's not realistic and unfortunately it simply doesn't work that way (at least not for me and everyone I know).. If you're going to start using steroids and want to keep the gains long term and keep building on top of gains from the last cycle you have to be prepared to maintain a certain level of Testosterone (at the very least) to allow your body to keep the size and strength you developed during cycle.

In summary, my intention with this post is to evoke thought and better decision making on the part of young guys new to steroids. You have to be aware of the magnitude of your decision to start using AAS and I want you knowing the truth from the get go..Not that you think you can do a few cycles and build the physique you want and then maintain it with protein powder and creatine lol..All the people I know that keep gains between cycles are on TRT. I also know guys that have been yo-yo'ing for years. Up 10 lbs, down 7 lbs.. and granted, they ARE bigger than when they started (so yes you do keep SOME of the gains) but their physiques typically hold more body fat because they're eating to maintain size but their bodies simply cannot partition nutrients the same way and beta fat cells are not activated anymore so the people who ARE able to keep a decent amount of their gains get fat.. Sorry to burst your bubble guys but as I like to say "there's no biological free lunch." What goes up must come down unless you figure out a way to stay up or "cruise."

Lastly, please let me be clear.. I am NOT saying that everyone needs to get on TRT.. What I'm saying is please know the truth BEFORE making the decision to jump on gear and know exactly what you're getting yourself into. I don't want people to believe the same BS that I believed for years as a young buck...

[GuanacoJuicer]

Very well put. I've seen a lot of people who want to achieve a certain look and then stop working out thinking they will look like that without maintaining the work it took to get there in the first place.

Working out and being fit HAS to be your lifestyle before even considering going on gear. I've been lifting for nearly ten years and love it. Best part of my day is when I hit the gym. So using gear will be a long term commitment for me.

I've gotten really far through shear determination and hard work. But to reach the next level of what I am trying trying to accomplish will require long term use of AAS. And I am ready to make that jump from natural to enhanced.

[ScotchGuard02]

When one is on a cycle there are a lot of benefits one receives from AAS. Better protein synthesis, muscles repair faster, more nitrogen uptake into the muscle, better water transfer in the muscle, etc. When you get off cycle you lose a lot of those benefits. Remember, being on cycle does not generate NEW muscle tissue, the AAS cycle only enhances existing muscle, unless you're on HGH. When you get off cycle most of those benefits will diminish and you go back to your "old" self, chemically. If your run an unsuccessful PCT you don't even have the benefits of your natural Test to keep your gains. After having said that, the gains you keep is also determined by several factors like genetics, diet, workouts, sleep, rest, stress, etc. The best that we can hope for is to do our best to eat well, rest well, and train well. The rest is up to nature. It's really difficult to say, "you'll keep 56.854% of your gains after PCT". Because such a claim is bogus.

[Iron Frenchie]

So I'm 28. My natty test is around 400 ng/dl with a free test of 16 ng/dl. Let's say I do another 20 cycles what realistically are my chances of going to that lower threshold of test where I feel the symptoms of low T and will need TRT. If my chances are slim to none then why not do TRT now and not have to deal with 20 more PCT's where I lose my gains and feel shitty. I already had a vasectomy too.

[cousinmuscles]

So I'm 28. My natty test is around 400 ng/dl with a free test of 16 ng/dl. Let's say I do another 20 cycles what realistically are my chances of going to that lower threshold of test where I feel the symptoms of low T and will need TRT. If my chances are slim to none then why not do TRT now and not have to deal with 20 more PCT's where I lose my gains and feel shitty. I already had a vasectomy too.

Some personal experience, I was 28 before my first cycle with 375 ng/dl pre cycle. Made good gains on the first cycle, in the peak weeks between week 6-11 I'd up my deadlift/squat weight by 20lbs every workout and get the same reps (alternated squats/deads every other week). Experimented a little and tried for a longer cycle to see if there were gains past week 11. I did a good PCT the only thing I didn't have was HCG during cycle. Despite the clomid and nolva I pretty much saw all the gains just melt away. Workout after workout I just went to the gym and everything just felt heavier. Ended up weaker than before cycle... had to train for months to get my strength back to baseline.

Might just be that my HPTA is weaker. If anything I just gained a ton of respect for hormones. I didn't get any sides like ED or bad mood but felt how my energy was drained, sleep messed up, would get aches here and there by the slightest workload... Some people recover fine but I doubt you can miss the bullet indefinitely.

[ScotchGuard02]

So I'm 28. My natty test is around 400 ng/dl with a free test of 16 ng/dl. Let's say I do another 20 cycles what realistically are my chances of going to that lower threshold of test where I feel the symptoms of low T and will need TRT. If my chances are slim to none then why not do TRT now and not have to deal with 20 more PCT's where I lose my gains and feel shitty. I already had a vasectomy too.

I hear you. It would be a lot easier to get on TRT right now and not have to worry about PCT and all that's associated with coming off of a cycle. I would recommend that you don't get on TRT as a healthy young man. If an AAS cycle only affected the endogenous level of Testosterone, I would say get on TRT right now. However, that is not the case. There are 7 glands in your endocrine system that produce over a 100 different hormones. An AAS cycle doesn't just affect the gland which trigger Test production but many other hormones as well. Why does a guy with all the right numbers on his blood test but he has no libido or soft erections? It's because there are a LOT of hormones that are being affected by an AAS cycle. If you decide to get on TRT now you will disrupt natural function of your glands and thus experience side affect that you may not welcome. Just stay as natural as possible for as long as possible. Your quality of life will be better. Just my .02

[JackMan017]

Remember, being on cycle does not generate NEW muscle tissue, the AAS cycle only enhances existing muscle, unless you're on HGH.

How come when one is on AAS, there isn't a combination (not necessarily an equal combination) of both of those aspects taking place? Just trying to understand.

[ScotchGuard02]

How come when one is on AAS, there isn't a combination (not necessarily an equal combination) of both of those aspects taking place? Just trying to understand.

I should clarify my response. The AAS works on existing muscles. Your body continues to secrete natural HGH. HGH will signal your body to product IGF-1. It's the IGF-1 that creates new muscle tissue. While on cycle, your body will continue to produce new muscle tissue due to the IGF-1 and the AAS will continue to optimize the new muscle tissue.

[AlphaMindz]

How come when one is on AAS, there isn't a combination (not necessarily an equal combination) of both of those aspects taking place? Just trying to understand.

AAS increase the actual SIZE of the muscle cell, and makes your body more efficient at synthesizing now proteins which will ultimately increase the size and strength of the muscle cells.

Now, it IS possible to increase the AMOUNT of muscle cells one has by using HGH and Igf-1 but that's another conversation altogether.

**I should add- to better answer you're question as to "why" it's because we're born with all the muscle and fat cells we're ever going to have....and we can only increase and decrease the size of them. That's our DNA, we're born with all the cells in a blueprint and can only effect the size and strength of the cells, and energy out put (but that's going into another topic..) The only exception is growth hormone... With growth hormone you can actually recruit more satellite cells and then use steroids to increase the size of them (hence the synergistic properties of growth and AAS). Hope that answers your question a bit better.

[AlphaMindz]

So I'm 28. My natty test is around 400 ng/dl with a free test of 16 ng/dl. Let's say I do another 20 cycles what realistically are my chances of going to that lower threshold of test where I feel the symptoms of low T and will need TRT. If my chances are slim to none then why not do TRT now and not have to deal with 20 more PCT's where I lose my gains and feel shitty. I already had a vasectomy too.

We're not talking about a chance, we're talking about a sure thing. Your Test levels will continue to drop over time and not necessarily due to cycling (although I would imagine even with perfect pct's your levels won't FULLY recover every time) but also simply due to age.

When I got on TRT a little less than a year ago at 34 years of age my Test levels were at 320. My first doctor said it was within range lol, I told him "well clearly we have different standards for ourselves doc" and went to get a second opinion.

For me personally, it's the best thing I've ever done...However, I can't go around telling everyone on here to get on TRT lol...That would def stir the pot but also I feel like it would be irresponsible of me to do that..

Instead, I'm trying to get people to think long and hard before jumping on gear and really asking themselves WHY they're doing it.. Are you doing this cause you want to compete or have some kind of career in bodybuilding, or do you wanna walk around with your shirt off at the next music festival..!?

I also want people to know the truth which is you will not keep the gains (as previously mentioned you will keep a small amount...just to clarify) from a steroid cycle forever and even if you manage to keep the size you've gained you will not be able to be able to keep the muscle without holding a lot more body fat.

So ultimately what I'm saying is, when you decide you're going to get on steroids I want you to know 2 thing-

1. You're eventually going to need TRT so if the idea of having to rely on exogenous Testosterone is unappealing to you... Don't do steroids!

2. If you manage to recover you HTPA after every cycle you still won't be able to hold on to the majority of your gains, and even if you maintain your size through eating at maintenance or surplus, you certainly won't be able to maintain the same body composition as beta cells get deactivated and nutrient partitioning becomes far less efficient again.

Final point - It's a life long decision guys, don't take it lightly...and please make sure your reason is better than wanting to walk around with your shirt off at some event.

[paul_]

Part of what you are saying is true, but I tend to disagree with one aspect.
Of course, you can't hold on to the form you get while on cycle, because if you could you wouldn't cycle first place.
But, and even if it's not from my own experience, as I watch over some of my buddies you can still hold on to some great shape even off.
Hell, I have one of my friends who stopped training for over 6 months and he is still way over what his genetic limits would be. Not to mention the poor diet or alcohol abuse and lost nights...
Therefore my final point - I agree there is some serious thinking to be done before considering gear and there are some consequences which can be bigger or lower, depending on your body. But running one cycle does not mean you MUST remain on TRT your whole life. Only if you surpassed your genetic potential by a lot and you don't like how you look at that peak, then yes you have to keep taking to maintain a higher point.

[GearHeaded]

funny thing is you can develop very similar arguments to food and training. IF 3500 calories per day with 4 days a week training that got your bench to 315, ultimately got you to say 200 pounds -- then if you drop off the calories, or the training, or the strength, you'll more then likely lose gains.

hormones just amplify this to a whole new level and things are much quicker and more dramatic.

Remember, muscle mass is metabolically taxing on the body. its very inefficient for survival. your body would rather be skinny fat for survival purposes then muscular. holding onto a lot of muscle mass is about adaptation processes that continually happen from all levels, , diet, training, and hormones . yes, the more advanced you get even your drug protocols may need to "progressively overloaded" .

you may be able to hold onto your lean somewhat fit 180 pounds with 200mg of TRT per week,, but Big Ramy may need to cruise on 1000mg of deca, 500mg of test, 600mg primo just during his maintenance phase to hold onto his muscle mass.


also why I'm not a fan of PCT if your number one goal is gains.. IF my son was say 23 years old wanted to be a top level body builder and was dead set on that. I would advise him to not bother with PCT ever , that will just hinder gains, and to keep going and growing for years to come by being on cycle and rotating compounds throughout the year with set times of down regulation to clean up blood work.. with adding in other growth factors like HGH, insulin, and IGF, to the AAS..

300 pound body builders do NOT exist from doing PCT and shrinking and losing gains every few months..

[marcus300]

There's no set rule IMHO I've seen some huge guys drop serious size when they come off or drop down to their trt and I've also seen guys hold tremendous gains after pct or on trt. A lot is to do with your lifestyle and how you tackle being off cycle or on trt, some guys just can't handle it mentally and drop their calorie intake and don't train as hard and even miss training session other's try and keep focused and fight for those gains to stay. I've maintained very well just on TRT and have been up to 270lbs on trt which I contribute to my intense work ethic in the gym and my diet but as the year pass by things slowly drop off I can assure you of that but if you live the lifestyle and be consistent in everything you to at preserving muscle tissue then you get the best chance. Knowing your own body how to grows and adapts to training is vital in preserving muscle tissue and this only comes after years unless your genetically gifted.


When I was cycling and doing PCT I would maintain ok, even though mentally I would think I was shrinking I knew by other peoples reaction I wasn't. Most who run PCT wouldn't really stick the general rules anyway and fly back on cycle I know I did a few times but lowT comes on faster and you have to have a good word with yourself which direction you want to go in.

[ScotchGuard02]

For me, I've seen my body go through several "phases" of growth. I was one skinny teenager running around at about 120lbs. After a few years of marriage and establishing a stable eating habit my body weight normalized at 165lbs. I was at 165 lbs for about 15 years. When I hit late 30's my metabolism changed and my weight picked up weight to 185lbs. In my early 40's I went on TRT and eventually to running AAS cycles and my weight went to 205lbs where I am now. I can pack in the food and pin AAS and I'll gain weight but my after PCT and when I go back to my normal eating habits I go back to 205lbs. I can get lean lean lean and drop to 190lbs. Then when I go back to my normal life, I'm back to 205lbs. It takes a lot of work to get big and more work to stay big. I applaud you guys out there that have the discipline to think big, eat big, and stay big.