TRT 180mg/week vs. 100mg/week

[22-250]

Been on test cyp 180 mg/week and 0.5 adex/week from an anti-aging clinic for a couple of years.

Visited an endocrinologist because I got sick of paying so much and had labs done last week. Results came in today at 293 free test and Dr. recommends bringing it down to 155. 1181 total test and Dr. wants to bring it down to 500, says range is 300-800. Didn't specify a range for free test. Total cholesterol was slightly elevated at 213 and LDL at 135. Also worried about slightly high level of red blood cells 17.3 and hematocrit 50.2 which can cause blood clots. Did loads of tests and all other results were within range.

Endo wants me to drop to 100 mg/week and drop the adex. Your thoughts? Will be retesting in a month.

[EDCG19]

Why not try 125-150mg per week split that to twice a week for total
I have done 100mg for about a month before it wasn't working for me

[HoldMyBeer]

The range for total T varies depending on who you talk to. Some will say 400-1100, some 300-900, etc.
100/week, according to my doc, works for 90% of his patients.
And you probably don't need adex at that amount. I'm surprised you did at 180 (although not impossible)

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[kelkel]

Whats the lab range being used for free T? FT is what counts here, total doesn't really matter.
If you can run less and have solid FT numbers then it's a win for you in the long run, especially if you can get by with less ancillaries like adex.
Hema at 50.2 is really not a concern. Give blood if you like.
Splitting your dose in half and injecting twice per week will be beneficial as well like goal in mind mentioned. It can allow you to use less test with better results.

[Quester]

Everyone is different. I'm doing 70mg x2 / week. This is putting me at 750ish on the labcorp range (now tops out at 900) which equates to 920 on the quest range (tops at 1100). I'll probably drop down to 60mg x2 / week soon. Probaby feel just as good but maybe lower H&H and protect other values. Dropping below 700 (on the Quest range) doesn't seem to attractive.

[Youthful55guy]

Whats the lab range being used for free T? FT is what counts here, total doesn't really matter.
If you can run less and have solid FT numbers then it's a win for you in the long run, especially if you can get by with less ancillaries like adex.
Hema at 50.2 is really not a concern. Give blood if you like.
Splitting your dose in half and injecting twice per week will be beneficial as well like goal in mind mentioned. It can allow you to use less test with better results.

Solid advice all around. I particularly agree with splitting the dose. With smaller doses you can get by with much less T and migrate to an insulin syringe with little or no need for estrogen control. Suggest you read the sticky on best practices in TRT. I also agree that Free T should be used as a guideline to adjusting the T dose.

[22-250]

I agree, but the Dr wanted to start at 100 mg/week and work up. Since I felt good at 180/week and most everything looks good on my labs I wanted to stick with it or work my way down to 160 to get everything in the normal range. 100 mg is not working for me either. Skin is dry, libido is gone, I'm cold all the time and I don't need to shave every day. Don't really mind the last one. Energy level dropped but still acceptable. At the anti saying clinic, I started at 140 and worked up to 200 and started having acne problems and backed down to 180 which was perfect.

[22-250]

The range for total T varies depending on who you talk to. Some will say 400-1100, some 300-900, etc.
100/week, according to my doc, works for 90% of his patients.
And you probably don't need adex at that amount. I'm surprised you did at 180 (although not impossible)

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I don't think I need adex either at 180, didn't take it consistently but the clinic recommended it. Range on my test shows 250-1100 Quest Diagnostics

[22-250]

Whats the lab range being used for free T? FT is what counts here, total doesn't really matter.
If you can run less and have solid FT numbers then it's a win for you in the long run, especially if you can get by with less ancillaries like adex.
Hema at 50.2 is really not a concern. Give blood if you like.
Splitting your dose in half and injecting twice per week will be beneficial as well like goal in mind mentioned. It can allow you to use less test with better results.

I will try your suggestions 2x per week and donating blood to keep the Dr happy. FT range is 35-155 so 293 concerns the Dr.

[22-250]

Solid advice all around. I particularly agree with splitting the dose. With smaller doses you can get by with much less T and migrate to an insulin syringe with little or no need for estrogen control. Suggest you read the sticky on best practices in TRT. I also agree that Free T should be used as a guideline to adjusting the T dose.

Thanks, I'll check the sticky. I didn't think you could push oil through an insulin syringe.

[almostgone]

I don't think I need adex either at 180, didn't take it consistently but the clinic recommended it. Range on my test shows 250-1100 Quest Diagnostics

If labs indicate a need for a'dex to address E2 values, a'dex needs to be taken consistently; not one here and another one when you think you may need it.

Getting your TRT dialed in relys on consistent dosing off your T, HCG, and any ancillaries.

180mg/week is a typically a high dosage for TRT. Just echo what has been stayed above, split your dosage onto 2 injections/week.

I am scripted 150mg/week, but split that into 2 injections of .3cc(60mg) 2x/week. My total T stayed roughly the same (checking on a trough day), but my free T increased and is consistently at the top or just barely over the upper end of the range. E2 dropped a tad, and more importantly I no longer I have a low day in between shots. On the once/week protocol I would begin to feel just a little "blah" around day 5.

Also, it is probably a minute detail, but I have found I feel even a little more energetic if I injection my HCG a day ahead of my TRT.

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks, I'll check the sticky. I didn't think you could push oil through an insulin syringe.

I've been doing it for 7 years. A 50 mg dose of T-cyp (assuming 100 mg 2X per week) is 0.25 mL of 200 mg/mL T-cyp. With a 28G insulin syringe, I can draw up and inject that in about a minute.

The fallacy that you need a harpoon to inject T comes from 2 sources: 1) The old clinic protocols where they inject 100 to 200 mg in a single dose every 1 to 2 weeks, and 20 Anabolic steroid abuse, where they inject equally large (or larger) doses even more frequently. Yes, with those protocols, it would take a substantial amount of effort to draw up and inject. But when you change the volume paradigm, the needle size must also change.

[22-250]

I've been doing it for 7 years. A 50 mg dose of T-cyp (assuming 100 mg 2X per week) is 0.25 mL of 200 mg/mL T-cyp. With a 28G insulin syringe, I can draw up and inject that in about a minute.

The fallacy that you need a harpoon to inject T comes from 2 sources: 1) The old clinic protocols where they inject 100 to 200 mg in a single dose every 1 to 2 weeks, and 20 Anabolic steroid abuse, where they inject equally large (or larger) doses even more frequently. Yes, with those protocols, it would take a substantial amount of effort to draw up and inject. But when you change the volume paradigm, the needle size must also change.

I see your point with regard to volume and frequency and will ask for the 28g insulin syringe next time. Been using mostly Henry Schein Syringe/Needle TB 1cc 25gx5/8" and they are excellent... drawing with an 18g or 20g for speed and to prevent use of a dull tip.

[22-250]

If labs indicate a need for a'dex to address E2 values, a'dex needs to be taken consistently; not one here and another one when you think you may need it.

Getting your TRT dialed in relys on consistent dosing off your T, HCG, and any ancillaries.

180mg/week is a typically a high dosage for TRT. Just echo what has been stayed above, split your dosage onto 2 injections/week.

The anti aging clinic only tested total test, nothing else, and recommends Adex to all patients including me. I'm not going there anymore. Now I'm at an endocrinologist and she did not test for E2 and said she was surprised I was on it. She said generally only people who "do it in their own" use Adex.

I used HCG for the first 3 months with the clinic then stopped. Didn't feel any difference with or without. Same with Adex.

160-180mg once a week feels right. Maybe I can use a but less when switching to twice a week, say 75mg per injection. I'll ask for that next time.

[almostgone]

You would be much better off knowing your free T values and E2. If nothing else I would go through privatemdlabs or an online place like that and self order those labs.
Free T is what is Important. You can have a high total T, but if.your free T is low due to a high SHBG value you aren't getting the full value of.your TRT.

Good luck!

[22-250]

You would be much better off knowing your free T values and E2. If nothing else I would go through privatemdlabs or an online place like that and self order those labs.
Free T is what is Important. You can have a high total T, but if.your free T is low due to a high SHBG value you aren't getting the full value of.your TRT.

Good luck!

Thanks, will do. The endo tested for FT, it was the clinic that I used to go to that didn't. I had labs done again last week and will have the results soon. I'll ask for E2 next time.

[Beetlegeuse]

...Also worried about slightly high level of red blood cells 17.3 and hematocrit 50.2 which can cause blood clots....

I wouldn't be worried about it.

Too much Hct gets you diagnosed as polycythemic. All the naturally-occurring conditions that elevate RBC count also elevate platelets along with the RBC. The danger from polycythemia is from the high platelet concentration, not from too many red blood cells.

You've probably heard of a PED called EPO. Lance Pharmstrong won seven Tours de France loaded to the gills with EPO. Your body makes its own EPO, which tells the bone marrow to make more red blood cells.

Synthetic EPO was first created in about 1984 and it got to professional bicycling probably in 1986 or '87. Man-made EPO does exactly the same thing, causes the marrow to make more red blood cells but without any accompanying increase in platelets.

In fact that's also what AASs do. More RBCs without extra platelets.

There was no direct test for EPO until 2005. So athletes -- cyclists in particular -- doped with EPO with reckless abandon from 1987(-ish) until 2005. In the intervening years there had been pro cyclists competing with Hct levels as high as in the low 60s. In some races they were riding a bicycle >100 miles a day at an average speed of +/-24 mph for +/-21 straight days (which means they were putting a YUGE strain on the CV system) with an HCT of >60.

And this many of them died: 0.

Okay, in full disclosure, one cyclist did die (Fabio Casartelli, in 1995), but because he rode head first into a block of granite left as a guard rail on a mountain road, not because of EPO or anything related to it.

In that same period there were stories in the press about cyclists who were taking EPO who had died from heart attacks. And the cycling authorities were eager to latch on to those stories and to use them to try to scare cyclists out of taking EPO. Except every one of those cyclists had a pre-existing heart condition. None of their deaths could be directly connected to the EPO, which means neither could they be connected to having a high Hct.

In fact I've never seen details of even a single death documented to have high Hct as its proximal cause. Not a one. And I spend a lot of time researching this stuff.

There's even a famous case of two Korean guys hospitalized for heart attacks who were given massive overdoses of EPO, almost 10x as high as was prescribed. They both were heavy smokers and one of them was a diabetic with high blood pressure. So if ever there were two guys poised to be pushed into the grave by too much hematocrit, it was them. But not only did they NOT die, they didn't even get sick(er). Two guys with one foot in the grave and still no adverse effects from too much Hct.

When the use of EPO was basically unregulated, cyclists actually tested to see if Hct could get so high that its effects began to taper off. Because there's no doubting that blood does get 'thicker' because of high Hct. And they found it does. If I remember the exact number, it was between 62 and 64. Creating more red blood cells increases the blood's ability to transport oxygen, but only up to that point. Past that point, the added red blood cells actually are making the blood harder to pump.

But even that didn't prove a danger to the cyclists because their blood already was carrying almost 50% more red blood cells (and 50% more oxygen) than an average human's. It's just that beyond that point, adding still more RBCs caused their aerobic efficiency to decline.

I had bloodwork done just last week. My Hct was almost 54 (mostly because of being on an injectable AAS). I'm so worried that as soon as my lunch settles, I'm going out for a 2-hour bike ride.

[Fred40]

It's amazing how different people are. I inject right around .30-.35mg of T E3D and this keeps my at the very high end of the range with free t above range. Even at this small dose I still need .25mg of Arimidex every 5 days.

[Beetlegeuse]

I should have noted that in the same tests in which my Hct was >53, my platelet count was 305. Normal for platelets is 150-500. So 305 is slightly below the average of the high and the low numbers. Yet my Hct makes my polycythemic.

[anoxicblaze]

I should have noted that in the same tests in which my Hct was >53, my platelet count was 305. Normal for platelets is 150-500. So 305 is slightly below the average of the high and the low numbers. Yet my Hct makes my polycythemic.

Amazingly my hct is 61. That’s on or off trt.


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