Fertility question

[yeahbuddy289]

I was diagnosed with low T at 25. My test was low, as well as fsh and lh. I was put on 50mg of Clomid a day and my numbers came up great. But, I continued to cycle and it seems as though clomid is no longer working for me. I’m afraid I have ran one too many cycles and even though I have used HCG religiously, I’m now possibly primary instead of secondary (on Clomid lh and fsh were normal but total and free test were almost nothing) Since then I have been using testosterone and HCG for trt.

I know everyone says not to worry about being on trt as HCG works wonders and will preserve fertility but if I’m primary no amount of fsh or lh injected into me will make my testies function and produce sperm correct? My fiancé and I will be getting married next year and will be trying to conceive shortly after and it’s a growing concern of mine.

[Youthful55guy]

I was diagnosed with low T at 25. My test was low, as well as fsh and lh. I was put on 50mg of Clomid a day and my numbers came up great. But, I continued to cycle and it seems as though clomid is no longer working for me. I’m afraid I have ran one too many cycles and even though I have used HCG religiously, I’m now possibly primary instead of secondary (on Clomid lh and fsh were normal but total and free test were almost nothing) Since then I have been using testosterone and HCG for trt.

I know everyone says not to worry about being on trt as HCG works wonders and will preserve fertility but if I’m primary no amount of fsh or lh injected into me will make my testies function and produce sperm correct? My fiancé and I will be getting married next year and will be trying to conceive shortly after and it’s a growing concern of mine.

Can you give us a little more information? Please post all pertinent labs (TT, FT, E2, SHBG, LH, FSH, etc.). Whatever you got. Be sure to post them with normal ranges for the lab.

Do you have a history of anabolic steroid use? If so, how long and what type? Also, if so, when were the labs done relative to the steroid use.

What do you mean you ran too many cycles? Of what?

I'm a little confused as to how you can have a body like the one in the photo and be both primary and secondary hypogonadal. If I understand you correctly, you said you had low (free) T while LH/FSH were normal while on clomid, which would indicate primary hypogonadism. But your LH/FSH was low to begin with, which would indicate secondary hypogonadism.

[yeahbuddy289]

I will try to post a copy of blood work but it’s difficult as I’m not great with computer stuff. But my very first lab I ever had done when I found out I had low test was at 25 years old- I am now 29, almost 30. My lh, fsh, total test, and free test were all low. The Endo described it as all my systems were functioning but “lazy”. He then put me on Clomid and after about 5 months my total and free test were both mid range, indicating I was secondary (my pituitary was also check and no concerns found)

I have been cycling on and off since about 22 years old, always followed the time on/off guidelines and always did PCT. I guess my fear is I was either secondary before cycling or possibly after cycling and now because I have continued to cycle and use other compounds (such as deca) I am now primary and my testies are fried, as indicated by my most recent lab which lh and fsh were in range but total and free test were no where near being in range.

And the miracle fertility drug hcg/hmg will do nothing for me and I’m screwed.

[Youthful55guy]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet, given that you did respond to Clomid therapy. To me that indicates your testicles are functional and they are just not receiving a dependable LH/FSH signal.

We need to know more about what steroids you used and when you took them (ended them actually) relative to when the test were done. This sentence from you first post has me scratching my head: "I was put on 50mg of Clomid a day and my numbers came up great. But, I continued to cycle and it seems as though clomid is no longer working for me." Were you continuing to use anabolic steroids while using Clomid? If that's the case, I think we've identified your basic problem. You have to give up the steroids all together is you want to be fertile.

You mentioned Deca (Nandrolone-Decanoate). It has a relatively long half life of about 15 days and can be detected as long as 18 months after discontinuing the drug. You will need time for it to totally leave your system before it's negative feedback is no longer screwing up your hypothalamus/pituitary.

Perhaps other guys with experience with steroid withdrawal can give you better direction (I have zero experience), but my gut feeling is that you should 1) Stop all anabolic steroid use now (including testosterone) if you have not already done so, 2) Continue with Clomid therapy for several more months to allow to help jumpstart your system and to prevent you from having to deal with Low T symptoms (not pleasant), and 3) Get some E2 labs done with the correct method (sensitive test using the LC/MS/MS method). Some additional tests I'd also consider adding in are Prolactin, SHBG, and DHT.

Keep in mind that if you are continuing to use anabolic steroids, running these tests now will give you very skewed results and just waste you money. You need to give up the steroids and allow your system several months to normalize before you run the tests to see where you are at. My gut feel is that I would wait a minimum of 3 months before running the tests, 6 would be better.

[yeahbuddy289]

I’m sorry for not being very clear in my post... it’s hard for me to type this out lol. when my original labs were drawn that showed low lh, fsh, free and total test. at the age of 25, I had not cycled in probably a year and a half. All cycles I ran up to that point were simple test enanthate/dbol cycles. I probably cycled a total of 3 times between 22 and 25 years old.
So I started the Clomid at 25 years old with my last cycle being about a year and a half ago. I ran the Clomid (and nothing else) for about 2 months and that’s when my free and total test numbers came up very well.

I still wanted to continue cycling so after a few months I stopped Clomid and I ran another cycle with test and used deca for the first time at a low dose. I stopped deca 2 weeks prior to stopping test and even though I knew my body could not produce normal test levels naturally I still decided to try a PCT to see if by some miracle I could recover- I didn’t. I got back on Clomid and was able to once again achieve decent free and total test. numbers.... but they were on the low side.

After that point I basically began blasting and cruising because Clomid was giving me numbers in range, but not optimum levels. I have ran probably 4 test/deca cycles lasting 14-15 weeks. And I have cruised on test in between.
It was May 2018 when I stopped using all aas at the end of a test/deca cycle I had been running for about 14 weeks and I had my doctor put me back on Clomid to give it another try. After about three months of Clomid (and nothing else) I had blood work done and that’s when my lh and fsh were in range but my total and free test. were the absolute worst they have ever been and no where near being close to even the low range. And I actually felt the effects of it... zero sex drive, ever... I just felt like a hollow shell of a man. That was end of August/early September of last year and since then I have just been blasting and cruising.

[Youthful55guy]

Ok, I think I got the picture, but you probably don't want to hear what I have to say.

1) I'd give up the deca all together. It is highly androgenic and has progestin-like activity. Both of which can really screw up your production of gonadotropins for many months after discontinuing. It's known in bodybuilder circles as "Deca Dick".

2) You've got about a year before you want to try to conceive, so you don't need to go cold turkey on the T. Just stop the "Blast and Cruise" cycles. Your E is probably out of range if you are not using an AI and if you are using and AI, you might be low on E. Most guys don't titrate the dose with proper labs and end up overdoing the AI out of paranoia of getting gynecomastia, which is a real possibility when running Deca with high doses of T and not controlling E adequately. I suggest normalizing yourself with a moderate protocol of T-cyp to keep your Total T and Free T within range. I'd recommend a starting dose of about 50mg T-cyp every 3 days (E3D). Use a 28G insulin syringe. My experience is that if you have normal SHBG levels, that dose will put you at about the top end of the Free T range for a 30 year old man (pretty good) but still within range. This should keep your E2 within range without having to use an AI.

3) I'd supplement your T protocol with 400-500 IU of HCG on the same E3D cycle. That will give you between 933-1,167 IU per week, which 2 studies have shown is about the right amount to maintain testicular function while taking therapeutic doses of T. See the graph below that I made from the data in these two studies.


4) Maintain this protocol for about 6 months and then discontinue the T and HCG and start back up on the Clomid and continue on the Clomid for at least 3 months. At that point, you might want to have a full set of labs and a semen analysis. If need be, you can add the HCG back but at a slightly higher dose. I've read of several guys here in the forum successfully conceiving a child while on TRT and 500 -1000 IU of HCG per week.

The key thing in all this is that you got to be ready to stop the AAS use, which includes blast and cruise.

Good luck!

[yeahbuddy289]

Thank you very much for all your help... very much appreciated. I think you and I are on the same page as I was thinking the exact same thing about dropping the deca. I have been using 250ius of hcg 2x a week for a total of 500ius per week. Your saying I should up that to around 1000ius per week?

I hate to say this because having children is much more important to me than bodybuilding but we won’t even start trying until after we get married and that won’t be for another year and a half. If I do not use deca, would it be detrimental if I ran another blast this summer or fall? And if so, what compounds would be a good choice for someone in my situation?

[Youthful55guy]

Thank you very much for all your help... very much appreciated. I think you and I are on the same page as I was thinking the exact same thing about dropping the deca. I have been using 250ius of hcg 2x a week for a total of 500ius per week. Your saying I should up that to around 1000ius per week?

I hate to say this because having children is much more important to me than bodybuilding but we won’t even start trying until after we get married and that won’t be for another year and a half. If I do not use deca, would it be detrimental if I ran another blast this summer or fall? And if so, what compounds would be a good choice for someone in my situation?

Yes, approximately 1000 IU/week in divided doses has been shown to restore testicular function in producing ITT. I personally use 1050 (300 IU E2D), but not for fertility purposes. I'm long out of the baby business. HCG has predominately LH activity but does have some FSH activity too. That is why I recommend running Clomid at the same time when you are ready to conceive. It would be helpful to have the additional endogenous FSH production. FSH is needed to stimulate production of sperm cells. LH, or rather the locally high levels of T within the testicles, is necessary for final maturation and motility of the sperm cells.

As far as running steroids. I think it is not a good idea, but you alone have to make that decision. If you do, I'd stick to just T-cyp and in moderate blast doses and also monitor your E levels with frequent testing (you can purchase it inexpensively yourself at https://www.discountedlabs.com/). E2 is the predominate negative feedback hormone in both men and women. If it goes excessively high during the blast cycles, it can really shut down the HPTA. Fortunately, it's half life is relatively short, but is send a lot of hormones and SHBG way out of balance. On the other had, it is absolutely necessary to titrate the AI dose to your needs with labs because guys need a certain amount of E2 too. Otherwise we go limp with a bad case of ED. Not good for fertility or any other aspects of having sex.

[yeahbuddy289]

Are there good sources out there for HMG? I’ve never seen it anywhere... And would it be beneficial for me to start running that as well? Also, if I do run a blast, would a short ester compound be better? Like tren ace? Or just avoid that all together?

Also, I would love to have my own blood work done but it is not legal in my state.

[Youthful55guy]

Are there good sources out there for HMG? I’ve never seen it anywhere... And would it be beneficial for me to start running that as well? Also, if I do run a blast, would a short ester compound be better? Like tren ace? Or just avoid that all together?

Also, I would love to have my own blood work done but it is not legal in my state.

Personally, I'd give up the synthetic steroids until you're out of the baby business and focus on maintaining what you got. But again, that's a personal decision. It's not just the half life of the hormones, but it's putting your entire hormonal system out of balance and that can take quite a while to restore.

I would not mess with HMG. I have seen it available through some overseas steroid distributers but it is very expensive, $52 for 150 IU at one site I know of and you need a LOT OF IT. HMG is basically highly filtered FSH and LH obtained from post-menopausal women. LH has a half life of about 20 minutes and FSH has a half life of 3-4 hours. HCG has a half life of about 24-36 hours. I think you are much better off with using Clomid to produce the LH/FSH naturally and then throwing in HCG for an added effect.

I've seen a couple of published fertility protocols for men with secondary hypogonadism using a combination of HCG and HMG. The protocols usually call for high doses of HCG (1000 to 2000 IUs 2-3 times per week) in combination with 75 to 150 IU of HMG 3 times per week. But the catch is that it takes about 3 months to produce and fully mature sperm cells. It takes that long for them to make their way from the Sertoli Cells (where they are produced by miosis), through the winding tubular stricture of the testicles and epidermis and out the urethra in your ejaculate. So what you do today won't show up in your ejaculate for 3 months. One protocol I saw calls for maintaining the HCG/HMG protocol for a minimum of 4 months. Most men in these clinical trials begin to produce viable sperm within about 6 months. I believe the median was 9 months of treatment to reach the goal of conception.

Start multiplying those numbers out, and they are staggering. You have to be really dedicated to do this without some sort of insurance coverage. Lets see. $52 X 3 times per week X 4 weeks per month X 6 to 9 months, that's $3,744 to $5,616. And that's just for the HMG.

You still have to purchase the HCG and that ain't cheep either. I get it from my pharmacy for $130/10,000 IU. Let's say you use a mid-range dose of 1500 IU X 3 times per week X 4 weeks/month X 6 to 9 months, that's $1,404 to $2,106.

So the grand total for the HCG/HMG protocol is about $5,148 to $7,722. Granted, it's only about 1 quarter of their future college tuition (start saving now), but you get the picture. You are much better off using Clomid to produce the hormones naturally and much less expensively. Then invest that $5000 to $7000 in savings bonds for future college expenses.

[Youthful55guy]

Also, I would love to have my own blood work done but it is not legal in my state.

After thought. Are you certain about this? Most states (such as my own, CA) do not allow you to order directly from the test labs. However, the link I provided above is to a site where a doctor (in Florida) writes the lab orders that you purchase from their menu of tests. The doctor send the prepaid order to LabCorp and then you simply bring your requisition form that they send you and they draw the blood. The results go back to the doctor who then forwards them to you. More recently, LabCorp posts the results on their patient portal the day after the doctor has been sent the results, so you also have an on-line electronic repository of tests you can always go back to.

[yeahbuddy289]

Hmm I will have to look into that. So I will forgo the HMG and just stick with HCG. Are you suggesting I run Clomid while on test? Also, does the fact my test. numbers were extremely low after 3 months of Clomid, while fsh and lh were in range not send any flags that I may be primary at this point?

[Youthful55guy]

Hmm I will have to look into that. So I will forgo the HMG and just stick with HCG. Are you suggesting I run Clomid while on test? Also, does the fact my test. numbers were extremely low after 3 months of Clomid, while fsh and lh were in range not send any flags that I may be primary at this point?

No clomid while using T. I suggest continued HCG at about 1000-1200 IU per week in divided doses (e.g., 400-500 IU E3D) while on T. Then when you are ready to discontinue T, switch over to Clomid + HCG and consider increasing the HCG to 1500 IU per week. Keep in mind that it will take a minimum of 3 months before you stop shooting blanks and probably more like 6-9 months before you are nearing full fertility.

Regarding your low T numbers while on clomid, it may have been a carryover from your AAS use, particularly nandrolone. You may also need to try a higher Clomid dose too. You don't have a lot of alternative that I can see unless you want to shell out the money for HMG.

[yeahbuddy289]

Thanks for all your help brother!