Using TESTOSTERONE only for mass gains

[GearHeaded]

ok so most of you guys know that I'm NOT a fan of test only cycles at all. especially lower dosages (under 800mg) and combing it with an AI. I think they are a waste of time and your not getting anywhere near the gains you could get by running an actual AAS cycle (note: I don't consider testosterone an anabolic steroid, and neither do medical dictionaries). and once you add a hefty dose of an AI to your measly test only cycle, you've really made it a bad cycle and hindered your gains (the AI is defeating the purpose of test to begin with).

now sure I understand running 500-600mg of test to get your feet wet with essentially a high dose TRT. nothing wrong with that. but thats not really an AAS cycle imo (even though thats the general consensus in most places as to what a first cycle should be).

you can spend 3 years running a dozen or more of this little 'test only' cycles with your AI, and your not going to get much for gains out of that. compared to what you could be getting running actual AAS cycles during that time.

however having said all that, there is a right way to do Test only cycles if your wanting to put on some size.
so heres a protocol to make the most of your 'test only' cycle.


for starters - NO AI. I can go into more detail as to why for the 100th time. but keeping test from aromatizing into estrogen is a big hindrance to the gains that come from test only cycles. the whole purpose of test is to get the estrogen. if you don't want the estrogen then don't frickn run test in the first place . pick from 20 other compounds that don't aromatize. Estrogen is a huge factor in what makes Test anabolic in the first place. without the estrogen your simply left with mainly an androgen and DHT (which is not anabolic in muscle tissue).
IF your gyno prone or super estrogen sensitive. then don't mess with test only cycles. if your fine with high E levels but just want to limit some gyno potential, then run Nolva at 10-20mg per day with your test only cycle (that will at least let your blood serum levels of estrogen remain high)

ok so heres the protocol
test - 1500mg per week (no thats not that high .. again your only running test. 1.5 grams of gear per week is not a heavy cycle).. its at the 1000+mg per week dosage that test really becomes anabolic. the lower dose of test the anabolic load is very low (and again, its a test only cycle, you have no other AAS to help with anabolic load)

you need to stack your Test only cycle with these ancillary growth factors to get the most out of it
HGH 4iu per day
Mk677 25mg per day
T4 75mcg per day
Insulin 20iu per day
Clen 20mcg per day


the above growth factors stacked with your 1500mg test per week is whats going to make your test only cycle really work to add size.. lower dosages of test by itself just wont cut it. also a reason you don't want an AI is because high blood serum levels of estrogen with the high amount of androgen load plus these growth factors is going to provide a ton of synergy (like a very high hepatic output of IGF1)


anyhow, thats long enough first post . more details to come .. but just something for you 'test only' guys to think about and consider if your wanting to stick with test, but add some real size

[i_SLAM_cougars]

While I 100% agree with everything you said, and I am a fan of low dose nolva over AI, I’ve heard that nolva fucks up your IGF1 production, and blocks estrogen from going to your joints. I’ve ran high dose test cycles and dbol with and without Nolvadex and I can’t really say I noticed a difference, but I’m still curious.

[GearHeaded]

While I 100% agree with everything you said, and I am a can of low dose nolva over AI, I’ve heard that nolva fucks up your IGF1 production, .

the studies done on Nolva effecting IGF levels were done on women with breast cancer.. they are a bit over stated as lowering IGF levels in the presence of cancer is a good thing, so its no surprise that a drop in IGF was profoundly noted.

BUT to a steroid using bodybuilding male, there is no comparison or relevance.

I own a beach. i own miles of the pacific coast. thats about one trillion billion tons of sand.. your visiting my beach from canada and never seen sand , so you decide to take a whole bucket of my sand home with you.. you really think that bucket of sand effects my whole beach at all . no.
thats Nolva for the steriod using bodybuilder.. Nolva effect on IGF is not going to put a dent in us one bit when you consider all factors we are doing to make IGF through the roof like sand on a beach

[balance]

Excellent information GH. I am quite interested in the clen and t4 addition to what would be considered a mass gaining cycle where a caloric surplus is undoubtedly a defining ingredient. I have questioned previously the topic of clen in particular while in a maintenance or calorie surplus and the consensus was that it was a bad idea and of no use, but here you have it in the mix?


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[kbunyan]

Sensei,

For us test only noobs, what would be a long off season bulking cycle?

[i_SLAM_cougars]

the studies done on Nolva effecting IGF levels were done on women with breast cancer.. they are a bit over stated as lowering IGF levels in the presence of cancer is a good thing, so its no surprise that a drop in IGF was profoundly noted.

BUT to a steroid using bodybuilding male, there is no comparison or relevance.

I own a beach. i own miles of the pacific coast. thats about one trillion billion tons of sand.. your visiting my beach from canada and never seen sand , so you decide to take a whole bucket of my sand home with you.. you really think that bucket of sand effects my whole beach at all . no.
thats Nolva for the steriod using bodybuilder.. Nolva effect on IGF is not going to put a dent in us one bit when you consider all factors we are doing to make IGF through the roof like sand on a beach

Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can take Nolva guilt free without imaginary feelings of making myself smaller

[Slacker78]

Hello GH, great thread. I confirm what you told here. I did several test-only cycle with an AI at max 600-700mg dosages: i never didn't see so much gain. However, i was wondering if high estrogens load you suggest will affect the prostate and if Nolva ( Tamoxifene ) has antagonist effect on this gland estrogens receptors. This could limit the negative effect of estrogens high load on prostate.

[HoldMyBeer]

Why Mk w GH?
Also, does taking exogenous GH shut down natural production?
I was thinking along the same lines as you. I ran high test w only tamoxifen and my dick stopped working. It stops the gyno, but the other sides from high e2 still kicked my ass

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[Test Monsterone]

I think I'm going to take the advice of GH on my next cycle and try running without an AI at first, but have nolvadex on hand. Maybe that's what hindered progress in my last two cycles. I pretty much took Arimidex from day one, though no more than 1-2 mg/week. I think I was taking .25 mg EOD on my last cycle.

Interestingly I just watched one of Gregg Valentino's most recent videos and he said when he was juicing he was taking at least 6-7 grams a week and never touched an AI. He mentioned that he has genetically small/tight nipples and maybe he's not prone to gyno... I have fat on my chest and under the nipple so we'll see.

I have one question, though. When taking Nolvadex, from my understanding, the serum estrogen levels still increase significantly, but Nolvadex binds to estrogen receptors, therefore blocking their action. Does this help for the prostate as well, or will the prostate still be affected by high estrogen levels?

[GearHeaded]

regarding Nolvadex -- the best way to think about Nolva is that it itself IS an estrogen. it binds to estrogen receptors as estrogen, but does not illicit any estrogenic effects and by occupying receptors it keeps actual E from binding. but it also has a strong propensity to some receptors over others, eg., it binds strongly to estrogen receptors in breast tissue.
but this is a good thing as we want actual estrogen itself to bind to most receptors in our body, like our liver, heart, brain etc.

I personally do not know how Nolva effects the prostate or not though . just keep in mind that your only blasting high levels of test and having elevated estrogen for a short duration of time, say 12 weeks.. so its temporary and not permanent

[GearHeaded]

Excellent information GH. I am quite interested in the clen and t4 addition to what would be considered a mass gaining cycle where a caloric surplus is undoubtedly a defining ingredient. I have questioned previously the topic of clen in particular while in a maintenance or calorie surplus and the consensus was that it was a bad idea and of no use, but here you have it in the mix?

Clen and T4 are generally thought of as "fat burners",, but this is not necessarily true. the reason I have them in a mass gaining cycle is for their synergetic effects with HGH and elevated androgens.
HGH is somewhat suppressive to the thyroid and your T4 levels will drop off when taking it.. so supplementing with T4 is a good idea. also, when massing you want to keep a consistent and steady metabolism going to help benefit nutrient absorption and nutrient partitioning . glucose metabolism is extremely important in the muscle building process. if you have crashed T4 levels then you won't be able to sufficiently load glycogen and thus build muscle.
also, when T4 is converted to T3 in the liver while HGH and IGF levels are elevated, there is an enzymatic byproduct/metabolite thats produced and this enzyme is supposedly very anabolic. this enzyme is also supposedly enhanced by Clen (I need to go back to my notes to remember exactly how).
the clen is taken at very low dose just to provide this synergetic effect.. its not for fat burning.

also regarding Clen. most people do not know this cause they think of clen as only a fat burner,, but Clen was used for a very long time in the cattle/ranching industry. its a very strong anti catabolic and will preserve muscle tissue in a calorie deficit. Ranchers used it to 'beef up' and help their cattle maintain muscle mass. this was done generally with the addition of estrogen and androgen injections as well.
studies have been done on mice using clen and it has shown to put on new muscle tissue in the mice. clen is anabolic . back in the day it was popular to run Clen when coming off cycle and doing your PCT.. the general consensus was that it would help you maintain gains without any hpta suppression .

Clen is added for anabolic support (muscle building apart from androgen receptor binding) and to add synergy with the test, estrogen, hgh, and t4 . the dose is low cause again we are not using it as a fat burner

[GearHeaded]

Why Mk w GH?
Also, does taking exogenous GH shut down natural production?
I was thinking along the same lines as you. I ran high test w only tamoxifen and my dick stopped working. It stops the gyno, but the other sides from high e2 still kicked my ass

the reason for MK677 on top of exogenous HGH is because you get a compounding effect from the two.. so if you take MK677 at night before bed and you get a good 3iu or so pulse of natty HGH from that, then you go the next morning and inject exogenous HGH on top of whats already in your blood stream you now have an amplified amount of hgh. also exogenous HGH is going to be somewhat suppressive to your pituitary, but MK will keep it pulsing natty hgh (but the mk will be somewhat suppressive to the hypothalamus).
combining HGH with GH sercreatagougues or GHRH/P peptides just provides a lot more bang for your buck sort of speak . again its amplified. lets say you take GHRP-6 and get a natty pulse of hgh and your blood serum levels are elevated from that.. then you go injecting actual exogenous HGH on top of that and you all the sudden have much higher levels of hgh then would otherwise be realized running these compounds separately

[GearHeaded]

I think I'm going to take the advice of GH on my next cycle and try running without an AI at first, but have nolvadex on hand. Maybe that's what hindered progress in my last two cycles. I pretty much took Arimidex from day one, though no more than 1-2 mg/week. I think I was taking .25 mg EOD on my last cycle.

Interestingly I just watched one of Gregg Valentino's most recent videos and he said when he was juicing he was taking at least 6-7 grams a week and never touched an AI. He mentioned that he has genetically small/tight nipples and maybe he's not prone to gyno... I have fat on my chest and under the nipple so we'll see.

a lot of the bigger guys got big because they are not estrogen sensitive and could run high levels of estrogen without a problem .
Jordan Peters for example, went from 140 pounds to a 300 pound mass monster. and he does not advocate using AIs, rather recommends nolva if needed

[GearHeaded]

Excellent write up as usual! I have a couple of questions:
1 - Can you explain using GH and MK677 together? What is the synergy there?
2 - MK677 as an hgh secretagouge has the potential to supress natural GH production (indirectly at least). How long does it take for that to restart?

Thanks for all you share with us! With this type of information and the other info on this one site, how can anyone go wrong?

ok so I posted above the reason for the two together.. also just to clarify, Mk677 is not suppressive to the pituitary (just the opposite it helps stimulate it) BUT is is suppressive to the hypothalamus (which is where GHRH is produced).. the hypothalamus produces growth hormone releasing hormone, which is then stimulating the pituitary to pulse actual HGH. Mk is essentially replacing ghrh in the body and directly working on the pituitary, so the hypothalamus is being suppressed when on MK.
to keep things going I recommend just taking a day or two off per week from MK (so don't take it daily.. take a break every few days)


also, just to add this . if your MK677 is legit, and you take it at night before bed, your morning fasted blood sugar should be about 15-20 points higher then it normally is (you should be in pre diabetic range of fasting blood sugar when on MK). mine generally goes from 90 to 115 when on MK.
this is part of how growth hormone works . its supposed to liberate 'energy' , ie, fatty acids and glucose, into the blood stream to fuel growth.
if your MK is not doing this, then question your source

[GearHeaded]

Thanks for the response! That bit about blood sugar going up is very good to know. Home glucose testing is pretty simple and cheap, IIRC (my dad was diabetic) and that seems like a great simple test for determining if your MK is legit. Well at least in part - once the fakers catch on, maybe they just start shipping sugar pills.

yes the blood sugar thing is actually a huge part of how HGH works.. most guys don't understand this and they think the elevated blood sugar to diabetic ranges is a negative side effect of hgh use, and they think they are now insulin resistant because of the high blood sugar.
But when you think about it, HGH is repairing and building cells. its regenerative. this repairing of cells is an energy demanding process. you can't just magically repair and build cells without the energy there to fuel that growth.
so what does the body use for energy ? fatty acids and glucose ... well what do you know, HGH liberates both fatty acids and glucose into the blood stream. now why the heck would HGH cause this , well because again this cell repair and growth requires energy. the HGH is helping provide the energy needed.

so this elevation in triglycerides and glucose in the blood stream is NOT a negative side effect like people think, nor is it because of insulin resistence.. its simply the hgh helping fuel the energy demands needed to stimulate growth.

[charger69]

You provide a multiple compound cycle. Does this mean that you are not a proponent of just adding 1 new compound per cycle so you can determine what is causing a bad reaction, if one occurs?


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[GearHeaded]

You provide a multiple compound cycle. Does this mean that you are not a proponent of just adding 1 new compound per cycle so you can determine what is causing a bad reaction, if one occurs?

actually , technically the cycle example I lay out does NOT include even one steroid . its a steroid free cycle (yes it includes test, but thats a naturally occurring androgen and not an anabolic steroid).. the other compounds added in are just growth factors mainly.

in regards to adding in just one compound at a time .. I think this is totally reasonable for a new user to do who is under self guidance. however if this same new user has guidance from someone that knows the pharmacology , I think they are much better off running multiple compounds at one time and reaping all the benefits of doing this (this often times means less side effects and more gains).
why waste your time running just one compound at a time when you can get much better accelerated gains and less sides by stacking compounds. you just gotta know what your doing or have someone helping you that does. if not, then yes self experimentation one compound at a time works just fine (its just very slow going)

[ghettoboyd]

ive got to ask GH and its not to buck you here but if testosterone isn't a steroid than why is it the benchmark for all other aas as far as the anabolic/androgenic ratios are concerned not to mention a lot of other steroids are test based as well...I don't study this like you do so im just asking thx...

[GearHeaded]

ive got to ask GH and its not to buck you here but if testosterone isn't a steroid than why is it the benchmark for all other aas as far as the anabolic/androgenic ratios are concerned not to mention a lot of other steroids are test based as well...I don't study this like you do so im just asking thx...

this is really a debate of etymology. sure we can label Test as a steroid and its grouped with other steroids, but technically it is NOT an anabolic steroid (by medical definition). Test is a naturally occurring hormone/androgen. an anabolic steroid is a synthetic cholesterol derived drug. just because some steroids are derived from Test, does not make test itself a steroid .. no different then just because your house is made of wood, and wood comes from trees, makes your house a 'Tree house". when something is compounded and derived from one chemical structure, it then is no longer that which it was derived from..

Test is only a measuring point in regards to it being a hormone. the synthetic drugs (ie, steroids) are measured against that which is natural for comparison. so test is only a measuring stick in these regards, its not actually that which is being measured.

[ghettoboyd]

this is really a debate of etymology. sure we can label Test as a steroid and its grouped with other steroids, but technically it is NOT an anabolic steroid (by medical definition). Test is a naturally occurring hormone/androgen. an anabolic steroid is a synthetic cholesterol derived drug. just because some steroids are derived from Test, does not make test itself a steroid .. no different then just because your house is made of wood, and wood comes from trees, makes your house a 'Tree house". when something is compounded and derived from one chemical structure, it then is no longer that which it was derived from..

Test is only a measuring point in regards to it being a hormone. the synthetic drugs (ie, steroids) are measured against that which is natural for comparison. so test is only a measuring stick in these regards, its not actually that which is being measured.

Great answer and thanks for taking the time for explaining it analogy’s and all...I’ve forgotten so much over the years...

[powerliftmike]

ive got to ask GH and its not to buck you here but if testosterone isn't a steroid than why is it the benchmark for all other aas as far as the anabolic/androgenic ratios are concerned not to mention a lot of other steroids are test based as well...I don't study this like you do so im just asking thx...

Testosterone is absolutely a steroid. In fact, so is cortisol, estradiol, and other molecularly similar forms of cholesterol. I think GearHeaded is making the distinction that an anabolic steroid, is a chemical altering of a testosterone base (of which DHT and nortestosterone are such as well) to achieve something with greater anabolic value per unit androgenicy. In the vernacular, of course, steroid generally refers to testosterones and all AAS; just as it NOT meant by the public to describe other things that are "steroids": e.g. a teenage girl on birth control is technically "on steroids".

[ghettoboyd]

Testosterone is absolutely a steroid. In fact, so is cortisol, estradiol, and other molecularly similar forms of cholesterol. I think GearHeaded is making the distinction that an anabolic steroid, is a chemical altering of a testosterone base (of which DHT and nortestosterone are such as well) to achieve something with greater anabolic value per unit androgenicy. In the vernacular, of course, steroid generally refers to testosterones and all AAS; just as it NOT meant by the public to describe other things that are "steroids": e.g. a teenage girl on birth control is technically "on steroids".

Thanks mike another great reply much appreciated

[powerliftmike]

To GearHeaded's point on estrogen: I do believe way too many people on this forum complicate things and practice polypharmacy; that is trying to hit every "side-effect" with another drug countermeasure. This is quite problematic as drug interactions do occur and at the end of the day, this is just more trash for your liver and kidneys to rid the body of. Keep things simpler, healthier, and even cheaper.

[tuxpic]

@GearHeaded
Hi bro. I ask you a question. I was about to start a test only cycle at 1400mg, but after reading your toughts I decided to add 400mg tren.
Also about the not using AI. Estrogen is not a problem for me, it just blows me up as a cow and sometimes sensitive niples, I have always used aromasin on cycle. But now i want to try a cycle witouth the AI. Are the gains witouth AI really much better than if using an AI? Also i will use nolva to prevent any gyno. What dose of nolva do you recommend in cycle to avoid gyno?

Thanks!

[kelkel]

Gotta start keeping a list of these analogies.

[Family_guy]

Gotta start keeping a list of these analogies.

No kidding. You gotta remeber that AAS is like PB. More PB makes a better PBJ sandwich. Or something like that. Poor charger can’t have PB...

[Cuz]

I tried doing a test only “blast” and ran 500mg. Seen no gains whatsoever, complete waste. Just trying to ease back in the game but the point was absolutely no gains. Just thought id share. I do believe Test is very valuable to a cycle, and gains can be made as i have gained alot from a test only when i was still new to the bb game

[tuxpic]

I tried doing a test only “blast” and ran 500mg. Seen no gains whatsoever, complete waste. Just trying to ease back in the game but the point was absolutely no gains. Just thought id share. I do believe Test is very valuable to a cycle, and gains can be made as i have gained alot from a test only when i was still new to the bb game

Were you using AI? Also what compounds gives you the better gains?

[Cuz]

Were you using AI? Also what compounds gives you the better gains?

I always use an AI, im very estrogen sensitive. If i dont i get gyno even on TRT. Out of all the compounds ive used Tren by far the best for lean mass

[zigzagzig]

I'm about to start my first cycle in a month or so and I've been planning on hgh 4 iu/day for 6 months plus 500mg/ week of Test E for 12 weeks. Plus PCT, etc. I was not planning to add any other compounds bc most of the threads recommend to assess the effects of a pure Test cycle. The reasons pointed were, first, for safety, and second to get most of it before the body becomes less sensitive to small doses of steroids.

GearHeaded's position challenges this vision. I'm now considering some of the ancillaries that you mentioned. However, I'm still on the fence. What're your thoughts on adding these ancillaries (MK677, Clen, T4, Insulin) for a first cycle, keeping it safe, and not making the body too insensitive to regular dosage of steroids on the following cycles?

[Windex]

I'm about to start my first cycle in a month or so and I've been planning on hgh 4 iu/day for 6 months plus 500mg/ week of Test E for 12 weeks. Plus PCT, etc. I was not planning to add any other compounds bc most of the threads recommend to assess the effects of a pure Test cycle. The reasons pointed were, first, for safety, and second to get most of it before the body becomes less sensitive to small doses of steroids.

GearHeaded's position challenges this vision. I'm now considering some of the ancillaries that you mentioned. However, I'm still on the fence. What're your thoughts on adding these ancillaries (MK677, Clen, T4, Insulin) for a first cycle, keeping it safe, and not making the body too insensitive to regular dosage of steroids on the following cycles?

If you were planning to run HGH only during your Test cycle then that is a waste of time + money. HGH is not a cycle compound - needs to be run for as long as your wallet allows.

[Windex]

My two Test Only cycles were very mediocre. However I was also on HRT between 150-200mg for years.

I get a lot more running an "advanced HRT" and doing less than tradition "cycling" compared to cookie cutter approaches. The quotation marks are due to not knowing the proper labelling or terms for my approach.

[zigzagzig]

If you were planning to run HGH only during your Test cycle then that is a waste of time + money. HGH is not a cycle compound - needs to be run for as long as your wallet allows.

I plan to keep on it 5 days on/ 2 off. I'll just do a break during Xmas week. I posted 6 months bc that's how much of it I have rn.

[Family_guy]

I'm about to start my first cycle in a month or so and I've been planning on hgh 4 iu/day for 6 months plus 500mg/ week of Test E for 12 weeks. Plus PCT, etc. I was not planning to add any other compounds bc most of the threads recommend to assess the effects of a pure Test cycle. The reasons pointed were, first, for safety, and second to get most of it before the body becomes less sensitive to small doses of steroids.

GearHeaded's position challenges this vision. I'm now considering some of the ancillaries that you mentioned. However, I'm still on the fence. What're your thoughts on adding these ancillaries (MK677, Clen, T4, Insulin) for a first cycle, keeping it safe, and not making the body too insensitive to regular dosage of steroids on the following cycles?

I’m not nearly as experienced in gear as a lot of these guys but I will tell you this. The whole “one compound at a time to assess side effects” school of though doesn’t make much sense after I questioned GH on it. He explained that the reason people stack t begin with is to reduce sides and increase gains. Plus like windex said a 500mg test only cycle won’t be the greatest. You fluff up for sure but a lot of that is water.

[charger69]

I’m not nearly as experienced in gear as a lot of these guys but I will tell you this. The whole “one compound at a time to assess side effects” school of though doesn’t make much sense after I questioned GH on it. He explained that the reason people stack t begin with is to reduce sides and increase gains. Plus like windex said a 500mg test only cycle won’t be the greatest. You fluff up for sure but a lot of that is water.

The only way to know what compounds are doing what is to only add one at a time. The problem with this is that it is very time consuming.
I started out with a test only cycle and it was probably the best thing that could have happened. I was scared of steroids so this put my mind at ease. I also didn’t have all of the information that is available today.
Knowing what I know now, I would start with a stack.


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[Family_guy]

The only way to know what compounds are doing what is to only add one at a time. The problem with this is that it is very time consuming.
I started out with a test only cycle and it was probably the best thing that could have happened. I was scared of steroids so this put my mind at ease. I also didn’t have all of the information that is available today.
Knowing what I know now, I would start with a stack.


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The thing people never talk about is that you can easily run 4-6 weeks of one compound then 4-6 weeks of another and so on until you run as many as you want. You still are able to isolate each compounds effects/sides and you don’t have to run 12 whole weeks just to try something out

[DeeCee112]

I have to disagree. I ran a test only cycle and it was very successful. I exceeded my goals and learned alot about running gear and how your training and diet need to evolve. I learned exactly how I feel from the time the test kicked, when acne kicked in, how my estrogen sides either did or didn't affect me and how I'm feeling through pct.

My next cycle I'll be ready to add a few things in but I don't honestly think that for a first cycle I wouldn't have been able to fully take advantage of the other compounds, cycle them properly ect or identify if I did have some bad side effects what exactly they would've been from. But this is just my experience, I am glad I ran test only and followed the basics for my first run.

[Family_guy]

I have to disagree. I ran a test only cycle and it was very successful. I exceeded my goals and learned alot about running gear and how your training and diet need to evolve. I learned exactly how I feel from the time the test kicked, when acne kicked in, how my estrogen sides either did or didn't affect me and how I'm feeling through pct.

My next cycle I'll be ready to add a few things in but I don't honestly think that for a first cycle I wouldn't have been able to fully take advantage of the other compounds, cycle them properly ect or identify if I did have some bad side effects what exactly they would've been from. But this is just my experience, I am glad I ran test only and followed the basics for my first run.

And that’s the wonderful thing about all this! We are all our own science experiment and we all have different experiences!

[GearHeaded]

heres another analogy for you guys.

Testosterone is a great tool and theres a time and a place to use it. but its like a hammer, a very old basic blunt tool that works great in the right situation but works terrible in a situation where you need a small precise screw driver

heres another in regards to Test only for a first cycle -
Test is like an old 4 speed ford model T car made in the 1930s.. now can I teach my daughter how to drive this old beast? probably, but its going to be much easier and effective for her to learn to drive a year 2019 automatic car with all the bells and whistles and safety features and air bags, and blind side alert .
Test is the old ford model T , primobolan is the newer car

but as my first post talks about, theres a time and a place and a way to use high dose test to yield some pretty good results out of it


note: I'm talking test as an anabolic steroid for performance enhancement, not as Test for TRT , thats a totally different application

[charger69]

I go for the Lamborghini- trenLOL


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