Steroids have no effect, why?

[Beon]

I have been training in the gym my whole adult life. Decided to do a cycle of T propionate 300 mg/week, and the gains were spectacular. The following two cycles did nothing to mass or strength, even though I upped the doses, and added equipoise and dbol, so I stopped doing cycles altogether. That was four years ago. Now diagnosed with low T, went on TRT two months ago, T enanthate 200 mg/week. No benefit to training what so ever. I eat plenty of food, sleep well, no alcohol or drugs, I take care of myself.

So what could be wrong? To me it looks like there is something in my body that isn't working properly. Checked thyroid values through blood work, looks good. What additional blood work should I do? What nutrients, medication or other remedies could I try?

[Myers]

I have been training in the gym my whole adult life. Decided to do a cycle of T propionate 300 mg/week, and the gains were spectacular. The following two cycles did nothing to mass or strength, even though I upped the doses, and added equipoise and dbol, so I stopped doing cycles altogether. That was four years ago. Now diagnosed with low T, went on TRT two months ago, T enanthate 200 mg/week. No benefit to training what so ever. I eat plenty of food, sleep well, no alcohol or drugs, I take care of myself.

So what could be wrong? To me it looks like there is something in my body that isn't working properly. Checked thyroid values through blood work, looks good. What additional blood work should I do? What nutrients, medication or other remedies could I try?

Possible causes:
1) your gear was bunk
2) you think youre eating enough but u are not

Write your stats and diet

[Beon]

Possible causes:
1) your gear was bunk
2) you think youre eating enough but u are not

Write your stats and diet

Thanks for the reply. Gear is good. I 've done blood work to confirm. T was at 346 ng/dl before TRT, climbed to 780 when I was doing 140 mg/week, I am now doing 200 mg a week, approx 1100 ng/dl of T. Can confirm that the gear was legit in all the cycles I did too, because sex drive was always through the roof, although I gained nothing from them except the first cycle I did.

I am 6'4, 200 lbs, fairly lean. I don't do detailed measuring of my meals, but I eat four large meals per day, where I really stuff myself, and make sure I get large amounts of protein. I am never ever hungry between meals.

The reason I believe something is wrong is because how different everything was during my very first cycle. I gained a lot of muscle, and was very hungry all the time. During subsequent cycles, and also now when I'm on TRT, I have to force myself to eat, and I gain nothing in the gym. I suspect something happened during the first cycle or the PCT, and it permanently suppressed some system in my body. Most people have very good gains from their first cycle, but they still continue to gain the next cycle, which I never did.

[GearHeaded]

whats your training look like ? if your not providing adequate stimulus and overload then your not going to grow. you need a high enough frequency, intensity, and volume. you may think your training hard enough, but your only training hard enough to maintain what you have and not add any new tissue (this is why you see the same people in the gym year after year always looking the same).


on the other hand ,, there are some guys that simply don't respond well to testosterone. test is NOT an anabolic steriod, its a naturally occurring androgen. its not necessarily a great muscle builder and you've been exposed to it constantly since youth. you may have much better results running much stronger anabolics.

you may want to consider running something like MK677 to boost your appetite and increase your natural HGH production.. get your diet and training on point. make sure you consuming adequate amounts of quality carbs (rice and potatoes), and perhaps try adding a strong anabolic compound to your TRT and see how you respond (eg., 50mg of Anadrol per day)

[SoCalmk6gti]

whats your training look like ? if your not providing adequate stimulus and overload then your not going to grow. you need a high enough frequency, intensity, and volume. you may think your training hard enough, but your only training hard enough to maintain what you have and not add any new tissue (this is why you see the same people in the gym year after year always looking the same).


on the other hand ,, there are some guys that simply don't respond well to testosterone. test is NOT an anabolic steriod, its a naturally occurring androgen. its not necessarily a great muscle builder and you've been exposed to it constantly since youth. you may have much better results running much stronger anabolics.

you may want to consider running something like MK677 to boost your appetite and increase your natural HGH production.. get your diet and training on point. make sure you consuming adequate amounts of quality carbs (rice and potatoes), and perhaps try adding a strong anabolic compound to your TRT and see how you respond (eg., 50mg of Anadrol per day)

This is all great advice as always GH.

OP at 6'4" 200lbs my bet is that you're finally stabilizing hormonally on TRT. Metabolism is finally firing on all cylinders and what you THOUGHT was a caloric surplus before, no longer is. I wouldn't increase calories too fast, but you should really start tracking everything you put into your body; MyFitnessPal.

My money is on the fact since you're now at your healthiest at an endocrine level, you're going to have to eat to grow which should help with sleep, recovery, and strength. 3,000 cals might just be your maintenance calories and you might need to get into the 4-5k cals range to seriously grow.

Eating at that level sounds fun but it's a lot of work. Unless you do it dirty.

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[GearHeaded]

I eat four large meals per day, where I really stuff myself, and make sure I get large amounts of protein. I am never ever hungry between meals..

the reason you don't have an appetite in between meals is because your over stuffing yourself. your better off lowering the volume of each meal, not stuffing yourself, staying just slightly hungry and then adding more meals per day.
you'll perform your daily tasks with more vigor and energy, you won't feel as tired and exhausted, etc.. stuffing yourself too much in one meal puts a strain on your body.

and over all you'll likely be able to get even more cals in a day with more meals but smaller volume

eg..
3 big stuff yourself meals per day at 2000 cal each = 6000 cals

5 moderate meals per day at 1400 cals each = 7000 cals

you'll get more total cals in , plus feel better through out the day.

[Beon]

whats your training look like ? if your not providing adequate stimulus and overload then your not going to grow. you need a high enough frequency, intensity, and volume. you may think your training hard enough, but your only training hard enough to maintain what you have and not add any new tissue (this is why you see the same people in the gym year after year always looking the same).

I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I have no problem with pushing myself, but I have learned the hard way that my body won't be able to recover from it, no matter if I'm on or off a cycle. It's possibly related to what I wrote about earlier (some system in my body not working properly). I would say that I push myself a lot harder than most people I see in the gym, but still not at my max.

on the other hand ,, there are some guys that simply don't respond well to testosterone. test is NOT an anabolic steriod, its a naturally occurring androgen. its not necessarily a great muscle builder and you've been exposed to it constantly since youth. you may have much better results running much stronger anabolics.

Testosterone is an anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS), and it is a very potent muscle builder. That's why most cycles are based on testosterone in combo with something else. So I have no doubt my blood stream has enough anabolic stimulants to at least push me past 200 lbs BW. I think something else is messed up. I've been on TRT for two months now, and taking aside the constant boners, I have not noticed any difference at all in mood, brain clarity, gym results, etc. Nothing. But I'll stay on it for another four months to see if something happens long term.

Whether testosterone is an "anabolic steroid" or not, depends on how you define that term. I'd say it is. In William LLewellyns book "Anabolics", he writes: "Anabolic steroids are a class of medications that contain a synthetically manufactured form of the hormone testosterone, or a related compound that is derived from (or similar in structure and action to) this hormone." Also, if you get caught doing T in a sport event, they wouldn't say "doping by testosterone", they would say "doping by anabolic steroids".

you may want to consider running something like MK677 to boost your appetite and increase your natural HGH production.. get your diet and training on point. make sure you consuming adequate amounts of quality carbs (rice and potatoes), and perhaps try adding a strong anabolic compound to your TRT and see how you respond (eg., 50mg of Anadrol per day)

Thanks for the tip about MK677, never heard of it, might be useful.

I might be at the wrong forum for my questions, but my goal is to stay on TRT only, with a low dose like I have now (200 mg/week). I am not optimizing for muscle growth, but for general health. But I think it is reasonable to expect some muscle growth going from very low natural T to TRT boosted T. So I'm trying to understand what the limiting factor is for me. Perhaps it is like you say, and I need to split up my meals and increase food intake further. But my experience with my first cycle says that food is not the limiting factor for me. I should at least feel a lot hungrier by now, if there is a proper anabolic process going on.

[GearHeaded]

not that its that relevant .. but the "medical" definition of testosterone (as found in medical dictionaries and text books) and the "medical" definition of anabolic steroids are two completely different definitions. the basic bro definition in sports is general and thats why you hear test simply lumped together with anabolic steroids. but technically in medicine and science they are different. eg., Test is defined as a male androgen (with some anabolic and androgenic properties) , but something like EQ is defined as an 'anabolic steriod' , a synthetic derivative of test.

anyhow , not really important. just thought I'd mention that

BUT. what is important imo is that idea that a TRT dose of test is sufficient for enhancing muscle building to s supraphysiological level.. its not. A TRT dose of test is merely providing your body with "Natrural" levels of testosterone. the same levels your 50 year old neighbor has that doesn't take test.

testosterone is not linear in regards to its anabolic or muscle building properties. meaning if you have a test level of say 300 , and your double that level to say 600 , your anabolic ability does not also double. it doesn't work that way . in fact, you may get almost zero anabolic increase from doubling your test levels from 300 to 600 . it may not be until you reach supraphysiological levels (say 6000 ng dl of test) that the "switch is turned on" and your up-regulate and turn on anabolic mechanisms of action . again, TRT is just natty test levels. there is no 'magic' going to happen with natty test levels.. no super compensation and no drastic increase in anabolic mechanisms are happening .


however, with more advanced AAS (that are designed for this very purpose) , protein synthesis can happen and anabolic properties can 'turn on' much quicker and at much lower dosages then test.


so just something to keep in mind .. I highly doubt your body is "damaged" . perhaps your just expecting too much out of normal/natural levels of Testosterone (but having said that,, there are guys that don't really get much muscle building out of even high levels of test, its person dependent).

with TRT your basically training as a Natty (again normal T levels) . so you can't expect steroid like results. a natty thats been training for a few years can put on maybe 2-3 pounds per year of quality tissue (if he is lucky and his diet and training are spot on).



note-- having said all that. IF a guy has been low T all his life, and he corrects that deficiency, then he can at first get a supraphysiolgical like response from that. but that will last maybe 6 months then plateau. its mainly a response from correcting the extreme deficiency (I'm talking going from like 130 ng/dl test levels, to like 900 ng/dl .. both are natty levels. but the deficiency correction is so great you generate a supraphsiolgical like effect)

[Windex]

2 months on HRT is nothing. Most people don't see improvement until 3-6 months later when coming from low T.

Also if your HRT is only Testosterone you are missing a lot.

Also as already mentioned probably a big gap in diet

[balance]

6’4” @200lbs is pretty slim, that coupled with not tracking food intake (other than number of meals eaten in a day) my money is on not consuming enough food. Gear or no gear training or no training if you are not in a calorie surplus you will not gain. Lastly and mentioned previously I hope you are not avoiding carbs like rice and potatoes (fast easy digestible) if your looking to gain weight, salads and Ezekiel bread ain’t going to add mass.

I saw a mention of calories previously and it was likely just an example but 3k is barely (probably not unless u have super slow metabolism) maintenance for 200lbs if your exercising daily. You definitely need to start weighing and tracking your food intake (or just seriously focus on massively more (quality) food consumption. If you decide on the latter keep an eye in the mirror and if you feel things are getting soft dial back food a touch.

While everyone is different when I began trt (never cycled before, this can also be a difference maker as my body had never seen exogenous test) 8 weeks in I was up 10 lbs and not hugely but noticeably stronger.




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[Beon]

BUT. what is important imo is that idea that a TRT dose of test is sufficient for enhancing muscle building to s supraphysiological level.. its not. A TRT dose of test is merely providing your body with "Natrural" levels of testosterone. the same levels your 50 year old neighbor has that doesn't take test.

What you write makes sense, except that I am now in the highest range of natural T levels (1100) after being in the lowest range for four years. And I am very far from supra physiologically muscular, I'm just average looking, even on the skinny side. Men with higher natural T levels are more naturally muscular. When I read testimony from people starting TRT, a common reaction is less body fat and more muscle, instantly within the first few months, even for people who don't do any physical exercise at all. But of course this is very individual.

Most people doing cycles say that the very first cycle is the best. This is evidence that something permanent changes in the body when doing cycles. Maybe "damage" is a too strong word, but the body adjusts so that the AAS have less of an effect in the future. My personal experience confirms this. This is not just the diminishing returns from having a body that is bigger and bigger by each cycle. So I don't think it is far fetched to think that you can get permanently desensitized to anabolic hormones, so that they will have less and less positive effect.

Building muscle is not my main priority. I started TRT because of brain fog, and other typical low T symptoms. And I took it as a nice bonus that I could start pushing myself harder in the gym again, because my recovery would be better. But TRT has done nothing for me yet. I agree it is too early to rule out TRT, need to stick with it for another four months. But now after two months, it feels like something is missing, so I try to figure out what it could be and fix it.

Also if your HRT is only Testosterone you are missing a lot.

Currently I do T only. What else do you suggest that I do? I've checked my thyroid levels, they look fine.

While everyone is different when I began trt (never cycled before, this can also be a difference maker as my body had never seen exogenous test) 8 weeks in I was up 10 lbs and not hugely but noticeably stronger.

Yea that strength gain seems very common for people starting TRT, but I never got it, now two months in.

Potatoes is my main staple, because without them I wouldn't have enough energy to work or work out. And I don't stay away from fat. I'd say I eat about the same volume of food now as when I was at my heaviest 245 lb. But my blood values don't indicate it: SHBG of 75 nmol/L (15-70), which is typically seen in people who are on a diet. This also gives me very low free T, and this is the reason I started TRT. HbA1c of 28 mmol/mol (31-46), which basically is your average blood sugar level during the last few months. Low value means low risk for diabetes, and typically seen in people who are on a diet to lose weight.

So in a way you are all right in that I don't get enough calories into my system. But I am pretty confident that it is not the volume of food itself, but instead that my body can't make proper use of what I eat. Something in the metabolic pathway doesn't work right. T, GH and insulin would be the most obvious ones, but there are probably hundreds of other limiting factors, such as gut micro biome, etc. Just trying to figure this out.

Thanks for taking the time to give me feedback.

[balance]

You mentioned giving trt more time? Are you not seeing other benefits outside of muscle building? What was the real reason you began trt? Also you haven’t mentioned your age (could possibly be a factor in metabolism). Metabolism wise also what kind of activity level during average day manual labor vs desk jockey can make huge difference in caloric needs.

Please don’t read this as I’m trying to be a smart ass but the huge majority of us are not special snow flakes. AAS are not magic it takes training and food. I can give you the benefit of the doubt on training because at the end of the day the food variable dictates weight gain or loss gear or no gear, lifting or no lifting.

I know I mentioned my short term weight gain when I first began trt to be clear it was not all muscle. Part of putting on size is adding muscle and fat (hopefully not as much fat, that’s where diet tracking and eating the correct types of foods comes in). I was likely leaner before starting trt/gear but 30 lbs smaller (18months ago give or take) but everyone is a little different not just biologically but in the day in and day out effort put forth to change. I actually put on 20 lbs lean in the 18 months prior to beginning trt (my total T was 320ng/dL).

I can assure you are not the first or last person with similar thoughts as you have here. I specifically remember another member quite recently with very similar ideas about what aas would do for them. Couldn’t seem to gain much during true cycle but couldn’t accept food intake was the underlying factor, it doesn’t matter how much you are eating if your not growing it’s not enough. If it were as easy as take gear sleep wake up jacked there would be WAY more monsters (big and lean) walking around.

Give it time track your food and keep consistent progress (through progressive overload) your goals will follow.




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[GearHeaded]

What you write makes sense, except that I am now in the highest range of natural T levels (1100) after being in the lowest range for four years. And I am very far from supra physiologically muscular, I'm just average looking, even on the skinny side. Men with higher natural T levels are more naturally muscular. .

this is presumption and not factually accurate.. guys with naturally high test levels are NOT necessarily more muscular or more masculine at all. theres been millions and millions of guys over the decades that have had 1000+ range of natural test levels that are just your average guys on the street and you would not know it by looking at them. in fact, a couple decades ago the test levels on blood work used to go up to 1600+ ng/dl (because back then normal guys had levels that high.. our test levels as a society have dropped over the years)..

I've seen this first hand. I've trained 100s of clients. one of my male clients, who was very 'frail' and weak (for being 5'9" tall and 145 pounds at 42 years old in the prime of his life) and not very masculine and "alpha" . he was skinny, small and weak, yet also had a soft gut and stomach and not lean at all .
so my first thought when I started training him was for him to go get blood work and get his test levels checked. his test levels came back naturally at a surprising 900 ng/dl . I was surprised .. I myself, a decade ago when I had a low T of 160 ng/dl, was twice as strong, fit, athletic and more 'alpha' then him with much much lower T levels.

note- and keep in mind it wasn't just cause this guy was new to lifting that he was so weak and non masculine. he had been lifting and in gyms for years.


natty T levels are just that . natty . wither that comes from your testes or from a needle. natty levels do not necessarily build more muscle from 400 ng/dl or 1000 . its irrelevant really, cause the levels are still just 'natty' .
and again someone with naturally high test levels is not at all more prone to carry and have more muscle and strength then someone with lower natty levels (they are both equal because both are in normal natty ranges and their is nothing overly 'anabolic' or supra-physiloiogical about natty ranges of test). higher natty levels of test does not turn on any 'anabolic switches' and tell your muscle to up-regulate protein synthesis and build more muscle..

you have to get to supra-physiological ranges to turn these switches on 'manually' and force your body to build more muscle.. thats why when guys run test only cycles, I generally recommend 1000+mg per week. Test is not very anabolic at lower doses and especially at natty levels.
but thats also why I like actual "anabolic steroids" because at lower doses they are designed to turn on these anabolic switches and build muscle. Test on the other hand does not (if Test actually did do this, then every 14 year old boy going through puberty would be jacked to the gills.. but the fact that these boys are frail , small and weak, even though there test levels are through the roof, proves that natty high test levels don't do a whole lot for muscle building)

[GearHeaded]

on a side note here - I've got a client who is a member of this forum. he's been on TRT for years. he couldn't put on muscle. he even tried upping his TRT dosage to 500mg per week and still did not get crap out of it.

once he started working with me I put together an AAS plan and phase cycling approach ,, using various anabolic compounds and pathways like Anavar, low dose Tren, HGH, MK677, and LGD40 . he has now made substantial gains in muscle mass over the last 6 months and looks great .. and thats at 60 years old !

again, test is not always best. there could be missing links that test is just not covering for you.

edit - oh yeah, and I advised him NOT to be running an AI on any cycle he does let alone just on TRT . he needs to keep his estrogen levels on the high end if he wants to keep is IGF levels elevating . I'm sure that played a role as well . its hard to put on muscle without estrogen

so speaking of that OP ,, what are your e2 levels running right now and do you use an anti estrogens or AI's with your TRT protocol ?
it could be as simple as that as to why your not putting on muscle. AI's are gains killers

[Beon]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

You mentioned giving trt more time? Are you not seeing other benefits outside of muscle building? What was the real reason you began trt? Also you haven’t mentioned your age (could possibly be a factor in metabolism). Metabolism wise also what kind of activity level during average day manual labor vs desk jockey can make huge difference in caloric needs.

I should tell some more about my background, then maybe it makes more sense.

I am 52 years. I started working out in the gym around at 19 years old, after military service. I became obsessed with it, studied to become a personal trainer (but never worked as one). I was also of the opinion that most people fail because inadequate volume of food, or not having enough focus to train hard. Did very well with some good progress over the years. Eventually I became over trained because of personal issues (lots of mental strain). I stopped for some years and picked it up again at age 39. My first cycle was at age 44, T propionate 300 mg/week for six weeks, nothing else. During that cycle I had T of 1160 and E2 of 105. I went from 227 lb to 246 lb, granted some of it was bloat. I also felt great mentally; calm, confident, successful, at ease with life. First time in my life I ever felt like there was risk for drug addiction. This experience is what I refer to now when I think something isn't right. I have virtually the same T level now (1125), and I eat virtually the same volume of food. I am not expecting the same result at all since I am older and that was a steroid cycle, but it would very strange to me if I didn't have any results at all. I am expecting some small steady gains.

I have a very active job (carpenter) where I burn a lot of calories during the day, so I make sure to eat a lot. But the main difference from before is that it was a lot easier to eat during that cycle. I was much hungrier. Now I have to force it down. And blood work just came back today, HbA1c is strangely still very low at 27 (31-46), which is normally only seen in people who starve or on a diet to lose weight. It makes no sense at all to have those numbers when I think about how much I eat every day.

I started TRT because I've had problems with dizziness and brain fog for three years, and docs can't fix it. They put me on SSRI's which did nothing. T has been at the lower range for many years, but still within range. But when I measured SHBG for the first time and I saw that it was way over the range, it was clear to me that I have T issues. Like I said before, gym gains is pretty low priority for me, I just want to feel good. But I see gym gains as a sign that T is working as it should in my body. If I make some small gym gains, then T has an effect after all. But I am still dizzy and have brain fog, and I make no gym gains. So my conclusion is that some general mechanism isn't working. Could be as simple as more food as you say. But I'm reaching the point where maybe it isn't worth it, because now food just feels like a chore with no enjoyment. I am never hungry, I always have to shove all this stuff into my mouth. I never had that feeling before, even when I was natty and good gains in the gym, or on a cycle and good gains. Something isn't quite right.

this is presumption and not factually accurate.. guys with naturally high test levels are NOT necessarily more muscular or more masculine at all. theres been millions and millions of guys over the decades that have had 1000+ range of natural test levels that are just your average guys on the street and you would not know it by looking at them. in fact, a couple decades ago the test levels on blood work used to go up to 1600+ ng/dl (because back then normal guys had levels that high.. our test levels as a society have dropped over the years)..

Interesting info. It sounds very counter intuitive, since T is one of the anabolic mechanisms in the body, but I don't doubt that you are sincere. Would be good to find some scientific study on this though, to see the general trend.

on a side note here - I've got a client who is a member of this forum. he's been on TRT for years. he couldn't put on muscle. he even tried upping his TRT dosage to 500mg per week and still did not get crap out of it.

once he started working with me I put together an AAS plan and phase cycling approach ,, using various anabolic compounds and pathways like Anavar, low dose Tren, HGH, MK677, and LGD40 . he has now made substantial gains in muscle mass over the last 6 months and looks great .. and thats at 60 years old !

again, test is not always best. there could be missing links that test is just not covering for you.

edit - oh yeah, and I advised him NOT to be running an AI on any cycle he does let alone just on TRT . he needs to keep his estrogen levels on the high end if he wants to keep is IGF levels elevating . I'm sure that played a role as well . its hard to put on muscle without estrogen

so speaking of that OP ,, what are your e2 levels running right now and do you use an anti estrogens or AI's with your TRT protocol ?
it could be as simple as that as to why your not putting on muscle. AI's are gains killers

I don't use any AIs or SERMs, I'm only on T. I actually don't even know my E2 level, because it is hard to find a lab to do a sensitive assay here, and I feel that E2 is not very important unless it is very low. But when I look at previous labs, I usually have fairly high E2 when I did those cycles, so I assume it is high now too, most likely around 60 pg/ml. As long as I don't get bloat or gyno, I just ingore E2.

So I guess in conclusion, I should try to up my calorie intake further (not sure how though), and at the same time investigate other sources of problems, like sleep apnea, etc.

[Test Monsterone]

Like windex said, physical results on TRT take a long time to manifest. I’ve been on TRT for a year and have slowly seen changes after about 6 months. Cycles don’t do much for me either. It’s weird but I look better on just TRT compared to a cycle. You’re also 52 years old, so your body will not put on muscle the same as a 20-year-old.

People say you need to eat more or more often. I feel like if you have to make eating a big deal then it’s not even worth it. I mean people get obsessive with this shit. Don’t start counting macros and packing chicken and broccoli with you, unless you get paid for this. It’s just stupid, imo.

[Obs]

I have been training in the gym my whole adult life. Decided to do a cycle of T propionate 300 mg/week, and the gains were spectacular. The following two cycles did nothing to mass or strength, even though I upped the doses, and added equipoise and dbol, so I stopped doing cycles altogether. That was four years ago. Now diagnosed with low T, went on TRT two months ago, T enanthate 200 mg/week. No benefit to training what so ever. I eat plenty of food, sleep well, no alcohol or drugs, I take care of myself.

So what could be wrong? To me it looks like there is something in my body that isn't working properly. Checked thyroid values through blood work, looks good. What additional blood work should I do? What nutrients, medication or other remedies could I try?

Pm me source and tell me lbs gained stats etc with each cycle

[balance]

People say you need to eat more or more often. I feel like if you have to make eating a big deal then it’s not even worth it. I mean people get obsessive with this shit. Don’t start counting macros and packing chicken and broccoli with you, unless you get paid for this. It’s just stupid, imo.

Again if it were easy gyms would be full of non broccoli eating chicken packing monsters. Or we could look like everyone else slaying cardio equipment in an attempt to out train bad habits.



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[Family_guy]

Thanks for the feedback guys!



I should tell some more about my background, then maybe it makes more sense.

I am 52 years. I started working out in the gym around at 19 years old, after military service. I became obsessed with it, studied to become a personal trainer (but never worked as one). I was also of the opinion that most people fail because inadequate volume of food, or not having enough focus to train hard. Did very well with some good progress over the years. Eventually I became over trained because of personal issues (lots of mental strain). I stopped for some years and picked it up again at age 39. My first cycle was at age 44, T propionate 300 mg/week for six weeks, nothing else. During that cycle I had T of 1160 and E2 of 105. I went from 227 lb to 246 lb, granted some of it was bloat. I also felt great mentally; calm, confident, successful, at ease with life. First time in my life I ever felt like there was risk for drug addiction. This experience is what I refer to now when I think something isn't right. I have virtually the same T level now (1125), and I eat virtually the same volume of food. I am not expecting the same result at all since I am older and that was a steroid cycle, but it would very strange to me if I didn't have any results at all. I am expecting some small steady gains.

I have a very active job (carpenter) where I burn a lot of calories during the day, so I make sure to eat a lot. But the main difference from before is that it was a lot easier to eat during that cycle. I was much hungrier. Now I have to force it down. And blood work just came back today, HbA1c is strangely still very low at 27 (31-46), which is normally only seen in people who starve or on a diet to lose weight. It makes no sense at all to have those numbers when I think about how much I eat every day.

I started TRT because I've had problems with dizziness and brain fog for three years, and docs can't fix it. They put me on SSRI's which did nothing. T has been at the lower range for many years, but still within range. But when I measured SHBG for the first time and I saw that it was way over the range, it was clear to me that I have T issues. Like I said before, gym gains is pretty low priority for me, I just want to feel good. But I see gym gains as a sign that T is working as it should in my body. If I make some small gym gains, then T has an effect after all. But I am still dizzy and have brain fog, and I make no gym gains. So my conclusion is that some general mechanism isn't working. Could be as simple as more food as you say. But I'm reaching the point where maybe it isn't worth it, because now food just feels like a chore with no enjoyment. I am never hungry, I always have to shove all this stuff into my mouth. I never had that feeling before, even when I was natty and good gains in the gym, or on a cycle and good gains. Something isn't quite right.



Interesting info. It sounds very counter intuitive, since T is one of the anabolic mechanisms in the body, but I don't doubt that you are sincere. Would be good to find some scientific study on this though, to see the general trend.



I don't use any AIs or SERMs, I'm only on T. I actually don't even know my E2 level, because it is hard to find a lab to do a sensitive assay here, and I feel that E2 is not very important unless it is very low. But when I look at previous labs, I usually have fairly high E2 when I did those cycles, so I assume it is high now too, most likely around 60 pg/ml. As long as I don't get bloat or gyno, I just ingore E2.

So I guess in conclusion, I should try to up my calorie intake further (not sure how though), and at the same time investigate other sources of problems, like sleep apnea, etc.

In terms of being able to eat more, which I think is the most obvious place to start whenever anyone isn’t making gains anymore, you have a few options.

1) You could try using MK677 which is a growth hormone secretagogue that actually increases the release of the hormone signaling hunger called Grehlin(sp?) I have no experience on this personally but it’s a fact that it increases hunger.

2) eat smaller meals more Often as suggested by others. This is probly the easiest way to increase your caloric intake. Start tracking your meals with the app My Fitness Pal it makes it soooo easy bro! You will probably realize that your not actually eating enough especially with an active job like you have. Google “TDEE calculator” that will determine your basal metabolic rate plus the energy your expending through work and exercise. You probly need 3k calories just to maintain. I had a very hard time eating enough calories on my cycle. I was only 150lbs eating 3500-4000 calories totally clean no junk food at all. So I had to start adding in shakes. Take oatmeal and sugar in a food processor and grind it up then add like a cup of it to a shake with protein and whole milk. That’s a home made mass gainer that works wonders honestly. Either use that between meals or with your meals to add another 1000 calories or so a day.

3) Try adding in Equipose to your trt/cycle. It did increase my appetite even at a very low dose of only 400mg/week. The hunger didn’t last the whole time I was on it but it did increase my hunger quite a bit for a while.

Anyways if you can eliminate the diet as a possibility of why your not gaining that would help. It’s almost always diet. Good luck man that’s my .02

[Windex]

You need to bigdick your nutrition. Each meal gets you one step closer to waking up covered in tits and vagina.

Eat more
Eat better
Eat smarter

[Beon]

Like windex said, physical results on TRT take a long time to manifest. I’ve been on TRT for a year and have slowly seen changes after about 6 months. Cycles don’t do much for me either. It’s weird but I look better on just TRT compared to a cycle. You’re also 52 years old, so your body will not put on muscle the same as a 20-year-old.

Thanks for the input. Yea, I just have to stay on track and wait for the changes to happen. I've heard from many people that it can take time.

In terms of being able to eat more, which I think is the most obvious place to start whenever anyone isn’t making gains anymore, you have a few options.

1) You could try using MK677 which is a growth hormone secretagogue that actually increases the release of the hormone signaling hunger called Grehlin(sp?) I have no experience on this personally but it’s a fact that it increases hunger.

2) eat smaller meals more Often as suggested by others. This is probly the easiest way to increase your caloric intake. Start tracking your meals with the app My Fitness Pal it makes it soooo easy bro! You will probably realize that your not actually eating enough especially with an active job like you have. Google “TDEE calculator” that will determine your basal metabolic rate plus the energy your expending through work and exercise. You probly need 3k calories just to maintain. I had a very hard time eating enough calories on my cycle. I was only 150lbs eating 3500-4000 calories totally clean no junk food at all. So I had to start adding in shakes. Take oatmeal and sugar in a food processor and grind it up then add like a cup of it to a shake with protein and whole milk. That’s a home made mass gainer that works wonders honestly. Either use that between meals or with your meals to add another 1000 calories or so a day.

3) Try adding in Equipose to your trt/cycle. It did increase my appetite even at a very low dose of only 400mg/week. The hunger didn’t last the whole time I was on it but it did increase my hunger quite a bit for a while.

Anyways if you can eliminate the diet as a possibility of why your not gaining that would help. It’s almost always diet. Good luck man that’s my .02

Good solid advice Family_guy, thanks. I will do what I can to increase calorie intake, but not make it too complicated. I'm on TRT for life, so I can't make my whole life revolve around food. Will be very interesting to see what happens long term.

[InfectedSquirrel]

if this was true you'd be the first person in human history to not respond to a single steroid.