Nah, no more "no AI" for me

[Test Monsterone]

Talk about feeling like absolute shit on no AI, and looking like absolute shit. Maybe some of you can get away with no AI, but if I don't take it, I'm bloating up like a balloon, my face looks like I didn't sleep for 3 weeks, and I have the worst mood ever. Not only that, I have less gains.

I'm not sure where the whole estrogen is anabolic, you don't need an AI, thing came up... wait, yeah I do... but I regret listening to that advice. I would have made more out of my cycles without that advice. Testosterone is 1000x more anabolic than estrogen. Letting the testosterone get converted to estrogen doesn't make much sense, otherwise I'd be injecting estrogen not testosterone.

Right now I'm taking .25 mg arimidex EOD, and I feel great and look great. Before, I was taking .25 mg every 3rd day (day after injecting), and I still was getting a lot of bloating, bad mood, poor sleep, etc. Since I bumped it up a few days ago, I can already tell I'm feeling much better and the puffiness went away.

I can see if you already run low in estrogen that taking an AI may not be completely necessary. Me, I was running 42 estradiol on just 125 mg of test. My total test was around 850 and I was already out of range with my E. I was a little heavier then, probably a few extra lbs of fat, but still.

Btw I'm taking .25 mg EOD on just 125 test/100 deca/100 primo. So imagine how high my E was on the "real" cycles I did. No wonder I felt like shit. My gains weren't even that great.. On my current dose I already put on a solid 6 lbs in just 20 days.

So from now on, I take an AI.

[Gallowmere]

Talk about feeling like absolute shit on no AI, and looking like absolute shit. Maybe some of you can get away with no AI, but if I don't take it, I'm bloating up like a balloon, my face looks like I didn't sleep for 3 weeks, and I have the worst mood ever. Not only that, I have less gains.

I'm not sure where the whole estrogen is anabolic, you don't need an AI, thing came up... wait, yeah I do... but I regret listening to that advice. I would have made more out of my cycles without that advice. Testosterone is 1000x more anabolic than estrogen. Letting the testosterone get converted to estrogen doesn't make much sense, otherwise I'd be injecting estrogen not testosterone.

Right now I'm taking .25 mg arimidex EOD, and I feel great and look great. Before, I was taking .25 mg every 3rd day (day after injecting), and I still was getting a lot of bloating, bad mood, poor sleep, etc. Since I bumped it up a few days ago, I can already tell I'm feeling much better and the puffiness went away.

I can see if you already run low in estrogen that taking an AI may not be completely necessary. Me, I was running 42 estradiol on just 125 mg of test. My total test was around 850 and I was already out of range with my E. I was a little heavier then, probably a few extra lbs of fat, but still.

Btw I'm taking .25 mg EOD on just 125 test/100 deca/100 primo. So imagine how high my E was on the "real" cycles I did. No wonder I felt like shit. My gains weren't even that great.. On my current dose I already put on a solid 6 lbs in just 20 days.

So from now on, I take an AI.

Definitely do so in your case. The “no AI” thing is based on sound principles, but some of that did get completely blown out of proportion. GH had a huge hand in it here, but it’s actually now common practice among most “drug coaches” now, and has been for a while.
Random example: Broderick Chavez has more than one Strongman client who run test only, will run their E2 up well into the triple digits (300+ is the highest I’ve heard about), and have no issues other than the water retention.
Clearly, that would NOT be a good idea for you. However, you know this from experience. You didn’t come out of the gate throwing 2-4mg of adex at a 500/week test cycle, and wonder why you feel like absolute dogshit.
That’s kind of how the “no AI” thing got taken to extremes. It was the pendulum self correcting for years of “estrogen is the devil” bullshit. As with all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and finding that is up to each individual person. But starting out throwing extra drugs at a problem that may not even be a problem is never a good idea.

[AR's King Silabolin]

100% agreed. E2 should be borderhigh because of strength, heart and joints, but never beond.
Iguess those who says they dont need it, have less of that enzyme that converts test to estrogen so they have actually never experienced high e2. But, i also have read those are at a higher risk of getting cardiatic problemes.
Meaning, if your body says No when u up the test wo anchis, it works well and all in all its evolutionary superior to those who dont need AI.

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[kelkel]

the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and finding that is up to each individual person.

There it is.

[SampsonandDelilah]

As with most things, tough to paint with a broad brush.

I’ve never needed an AI ever. I let symptoms and labs be my compass...

We are all built differently though. To Gallows point, guys were crushing their E2 unnecessarily and that caused even more issues..

[Test Monsterone]

Some of you guy are naturally much leaner than me. As I lean down, I am curious if I'll need less AI. For now, though, I can't afford not to take it.

Sil, that's an interesting point you make. I thought about the fact that we convert more may just be due to a very efficient metabolism.

[Gallowmere]

Some of you guy are naturally much leaner than me. As I lean down, I am curious if I'll need less AI. For now, though, I can't afford not to take it.

Sil, that's an interesting point you make. I thought about the fact that we convert more may just be due to a very efficient metabolism.

I seriously doubt it will change much, unless you’re really damned fat. The very large adipose tissue related shifts in aromatase come from clinical settings, where your average client is going to be in the 25+% BF range.
The brain, adrenals, blood vessels, testicles (in men), ovaries (in women), skin and bone also contain these enzymes.
This is another one of those things that “natty bros” latched onto and it got turned into a retarded Ouroboros of bullshit.

ETA: in a way, it makes sense. People like to think they have more control than they do. Fat is easy to get rid of, those other things, not so much, unless you like death.

[kelkel]

ETA: in a way, it makes sense. People like to think they have more control than they do. Fat is easy to get rid of, those other things, not so much, unless you like death.

But even with fat, when you lose weight the fat cells remain, they just shrink.

[Cuz]

But even with fat, when you lose weight the fat cells remain, they just shrink.

Testicles come to mind. Ahh damn , I shouldnt have said it oh well

[Chark]

Definitely do so in your case. The “no AI” thing is based on sound principles, but some of that did get completely blown out of proportion. GH had a huge hand in it here, but it’s actually now common practice among most “drug coaches” now, and has been for a while.
Random example: Broderick Chavez has more than one Strongman client who run test only, will run their E2 up well into the triple digits (300+ is the highest I’ve heard about), and have no issues other than the water retention.
Clearly, that would NOT be a good idea for you. However, you know this from experience. You didn’t come out of the gate throwing 2-4mg of adex at a 500/week test cycle, and wonder why you feel like absolute dogshit.
That’s kind of how the “no AI” thing got taken to extremes. It was the pendulum self correcting for years of “estrogen is the devil” bullshit. As with all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and finding that is up to each individual person. But starting out throwing extra drugs at a problem that may not even be a problem is never a good idea.

Very well spoken, as usual

[Gallowmere]

But even with fat, when you lose weight the fat cells remain, they just shrink.

This is very true, but fat appears to be extremely dynamic in all of the things that it produces (hormones, enzymes, etc.), relative to its current vs. maximal capacity. I’d love to be a fly on the wall every time another lightbulb moment happened in a lab, where it was discovered over time that fat isn’t JUST the deadweight energy storage that we had always believed it to be.

[Meloncap78]

Talk about feeling like absolute shit on no AI, and looking like absolute shit. Maybe some of you can get away with no AI, but if I don't take it, I'm bloating up like a balloon, my face looks like I didn't sleep for 3 weeks, and I have the worst mood ever. Not only that, I have less gains.

I'm not sure where the whole estrogen is anabolic, you don't need an AI, thing came up... wait, yeah I do... but I regret listening to that advice. I would have made more out of my cycles without that advice. Testosterone is 1000x more anabolic than estrogen. Letting the testosterone get converted to estrogen doesn't make much sense, otherwise I'd be injecting estrogen not testosterone.

Right now I'm taking .25 mg arimidex EOD, and I feel great and look great. Before, I was taking .25 mg every 3rd day (day after injecting), and I still was getting a lot of bloating, bad mood, poor sleep, etc. Since I bumped it up a few days ago, I can already tell I'm feeling much better and the puffiness went away.

I can see if you already run low in estrogen that taking an AI may not be completely necessary. Me, I was running 42 estradiol on just 125 mg of test. My total test was around 850 and I was already out of range with my E. I was a little heavier then, probably a few extra lbs of fat, but still.

Btw I'm taking .25 mg EOD on just 125 test/100 deca/100 primo. So imagine how high my E was on the "real" cycles I did. No wonder I felt like shit. My gains weren't even that great.. On my current dose I already put on a solid 6 lbs in just 20 days.

So from now on, I take an AI.

I’ve never used one either. Last cycle was test and eq both at 600 and i didn’t need one. But this cycle with test just at 300 along with 300 tren 4th week in like overnight I blew up like a balloon and my sense of well being was gone. I took .25 adex the other night and this morning I woke up 14 pounds lighter than yesterday. Instantly feel better. I’m going to stick with .25mg EOD. I am also ramping test up to 600 so hopefully this low dose of adex won’t crash e2. I’m with you on this one TM. I used to avoid adex because of negative impacts on lipids but hell I’m on tren now so that theory went out the window. I’m just hoping that the tren coupled with the adex isn’t a “double whammy” on cholesterol.

[Cuz]

I’ve never used one either. Last cycle was test and eq both at 600 and i didn’t need one. But this cycle with test just at 300 along with 300 tren 4th week in like overnight I blew up like a balloon and my sense of well being was gone. I took .25 adex the other night and this morning I woke up 14 pounds lighter than yesterday. Instantly feel better. I’m going to stick with .25mg EOD. I am also ramping test up to 600 so hopefully this low dose of adex won’t crash e2. I’m with you on this one TM. I used to avoid adex because of negative impacts on lipids but hell I’m on tren now so that theory went out the window. I’m just hoping that the tren coupled with the adex isn’t a “double whammy” on cholesterol.

That’s pretty miraculous, .25 mg adex is not very much at all and i was under the assumption it took a little more time than overnight to see results like that. I am however glad you’re seeing the results you’re looking for now

[Meloncap78]

That’s pretty miraculous, .25 mg adex is not very much at all and i was under the assumption it took a little more time than overnight to see results like that. I am however glad you’re seeing the results you’re looking for now

Thanks man. Left pic is yesterday upon waking. Right pic is today upon waking. Now if I could just figure out how to grow instead of all my gains being fat when I try and bulk lol.

[Cuz]

Thanks man. Left pic is yesterday upon waking. Right pic is today upon waking. Now if I could just figure out how to grow instead of all my gains being fat when I try and bulk lol.

Incredible all of that was water. Id probably cry. You still need “some” water to grow. Id personally not increase the testosterone myself, if 300 mg is doing this to you but its a game of trial and error my friend. Hopefully you’re on the right track

As for the “no ai” thing, several of us dont take them anymore. Only one member would honestly beat this in the ground and they arent hear anymore. Frequent talks of “running 2 grams of test and never needed an ai” come to mind. But anyway, i think estrogen management is crucial when numbers go to high. It is a matter of personal management/preference in my humble opinion. ALL of the things we do here are of such.

[Gallowmere]

Thanks man. Left pic is yesterday upon waking. Right pic is today upon waking. Now if I could just figure out how to grow instead of all my gains being fat when I try and bulk lol.

Holy shit dude. Did you take pics of your body in the two states? I’d be curious to see exactly where all of that flushed from, especially since it was such a short period of time.

[SampsonandDelilah]

Speaking of fat, I’m going to be sad when the last of this prime rib is gone.

(Sorry, having my PWO meal and reading threads )

[Meloncap78]

Holy shit dude. Did you take pics of your body in the two states? I’d be curious to see exactly where all of that flushed from, especially since it was such a short period of time.

These are from the other night. I look about 25% bodyfat.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

These are from the other night. I look about 25% bodyfat.

You seriously have body dysmorphia.

[SampsonandDelilah]

You seriously have body dysmorphia.

Don’t we all?!

To DD’s point though, you’re not 25%. You’re holding water and sitting at an unflattering angle. The side pic you look much leaner.

[Gallowmere]

If that’s what you were looking like holding nearly 20 lbs. of water, I’m even more curious about the “after”.
I’m starting to think you might be getting in your own head a bit (or a lot) and shortchanging yourself with the adex. If you’re trying to grow right now, let the water come on (so long as you’re not getting edema in extremities or BP issues) and save the AIs for a contest prep period.

[charger69]

If that’s what you were looking like holding nearly 20 lbs. of water, I’m even more curious about the “after”.
I’m starting to think you might be getting in your own head a bit (or a lot) and shortchanging yourself with the adex. If you’re trying to grow right now, let the water come on (so long as you’re not getting edema in extremities or BP issues) and save the AIs for a contest prep period.

No..... no AI contest prep. Your cycle should be “dry” steroids. You want to tak the excellular water and move it Into the muscle for fullness.


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[< <Samson> >]

After reading who’s ever posts on here about dropping Ai - I decided to try

I dropped all of my doses & now rn no Ai whatsoever - before, I was using exemastane

I feel better than ever, estro numbers ride close to triple digits

But, this keeping your BW #’s in check doesn’t work on roids

[Gallowmere]

No..... no AI contest prep. Your cycle should be “dry” steroids. You want to tak the excellular water and move it Into the muscle for fullness.


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Usually when I’ve seen this practiced, it’s literally the last 24 hours pre-contest, to get rid of as much of the extra cellular fluid as possible. It’s not meant to be the workhorse, just kinda the final blotter, so to speak.

[< <Samson> >]

Yeah, no Ai doesn’t apply to contest prep - where you’re looking to be extremely lean


I guess I can add this - but, yes - the no Ai & prob my new BP meds make it harder to chase off water weight

[charger69]

Yeah, no Ai doesn’t apply to contest prep - where you’re looking to be extremely lean


I guess I can add this - but, yes - the no Ai & prob my new BP meds make it harder to chase off water weight

Be careful. Don’t go to extremes please.
I am about to go on an estrogen phase and the water will start to build up. I am going to adjust from the last one. I had to abort it because of endema.


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[SampsonandDelilah]

Yeah, no Ai doesn’t apply to contest prep - where you’re looking to be extremely lean


I guess I can add this - but, yes - the no Ai & prob my new BP meds make it harder to chase off water weight

New avi looks great Samson, absolutely impressive...let alone with the year you had. Nice work brother!!

[< <Samson> >]

New avi looks great Samson, absolutely impressive...let alone with the year you had. Nice work brother!!

This is coming from this guy

A tad off topic - but, it’s unreal on how well my body is running right now


So yeah - Ai

Just depends on what you’re doing - if I ever decided to get on a wild cycle, I’d have to run a Ai

At this point in my life - I rather adjust other things first

[kelkel]

Testicles come to mind. Ahh damn , I shouldnt have said it oh well

Who's?

[Meloncap78]

If that’s what you were looking like holding nearly 20 lbs. of water, I’m even more curious about the “after”.
I’m starting to think you might be getting in your own head a bit (or a lot) and shortchanging yourself with the adex. If you’re trying to grow right now, let the water come on (so long as you’re not getting edema in extremities or BP issues) and save the AIs for a contest prep period.

This is from just now upon waking today. Still a little softer around the middle than before cycle and I’m sure some of it is still a bit of water and a little bit of fat gain but it’s a huge difference. I also don’t feel the bloat in my lower gut like before. That made it almost hard to breathe. It was a hot bloated high blood pressure type of feeling I guess would be the best way to describe it. I’ll continue the AI because so far I feel better and besides, who wants to feel like trash on cycle. Hopefully .25mg EOD isn’t enough to crash e2. I have bumped test to 600mg and kept tren at 300. Now I’m beginning to feel like I hi jacked this thread.... sorry TM!!! He brought up a good point and it excites me LOL. In all seriousness I’m very appreciative for this site and it’s knowledgeable members. You guys at least put up with my BS. My wife thinks I’m a nut job. It took a lot of cajoling to get her on board with tren. She is terrified for my health. I had to explain that usually serious issues arise from people throwing health markers to the wind and running high doses for long periods etc blah blah. Now if I drop dead well, I got nothing

[< <Samson> >]

This is from just now upon waking today. Still a little softer around the middle than before cycle and I’m sure some of it is still a bit of water and a little bit of fat gain but it’s a huge difference. I also don’t feel the bloat in my lower gut like before. That made it almost hard to breathe. It was a hot bloated high blood pressure type of feeling I guess would be the best way to describe it. I’ll continue the AI because so far I feel better and besides, who wants to feel like trash on cycle. Hopefully .25mg EOD isn’t enough to crash e2. I have bumped test to 600mg and kept tren at 300. Now I’m beginning to feel like I hi jacked this thread.... sorry TM!!! He brought up a good point and it excites me LOL. In all seriousness I’m very appreciative for this site and it’s knowledgeable members. You guys at least put up with my BS. My wife thinks I’m a nut job. It took a lot of cajoling to get her on board with tren. She is terrified for my health. I had to explain that usually serious issues arise from people throwing health markers to the wind and running high doses for long periods etc blah blah. Now if I drop dead well, I got nothing

Sick lean-ness

That’s exactly what I’m looking to get to - but, that last bit is just not easy - specially without tren

[Meloncap78]

Sick lean-ness

That’s exactly what I’m looking to get to - but, that last bit is just not easy - specially without tren

I’ll take your size and density over my leanness any day brother lol. Thanks all the same.

[wango]

Meloncap, amazing work, but dude, I believe you are playing with fire.

Let’s say you bump into something. What’s going to cushion your organs?!?!

I mean, you’re looking at potential intestinal bruising & internal bleeding, yikes!

That’s why I like to play it safe & stay conservative. My goodness the follies of youth and vanity

[Meloncap78]

Meloncap, amazing work, but dude, I believe you are playing with fire.

Let’s say you bump into something. What’s going to cushion your organs?!?!

I mean, you’re looking at potential intestinal bruising & internal bleeding, yikes!

That’s why I like to play it safe & stay conservative. My goodness the follies of youth and vanity

LOL! Been there man. This is from when I was 220.

[wango]

LOL! Been there man. This is from when I was 220.

Laughing right now! I just get concerned now when my fat starts to spill over the waist of my jeans, that’s when I say enough is enough.

Seriously though, killer work.

I have to say, I did fall into the no AI way of thinking and I am starting up again with .25 arimidex to go with my test and var combo. Looking forward to see if there is a noticeable change as I do retain water easily and my BP climbs.

[Test Monsterone]

Meloncap, I think we both had the same issues. Maybe we convert more than others and our cycles weren’t as effective due to that fact. I also run very mild cycles in comparison to some of the others on here, and you seem to do the same.

In regards to your photos of body fat percentages... the guys in those photos have less muscle than you. So while they may outwardly look as if they have the same bf% as you, your overall muscle mass indicates that you should have less body fat, as a %. I think you’re more around 15% or less once you shed the water. Keep up the good work brother.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I would say 10%.



He's pinching nothing but skin.

[Test Monsterone]

I would say 10%.



He's pinching nothing but skin.

yeah, you're right, I didn't even see that one.

[Cuz]

Who's?

Joe Biden?

[Meloncap78]

Joe Biden?

Oh man..... knee hangers.