So whats your take on this?

[Hughinn]

Democrat donor and Biden supporter, Gang Chen was just arrested for illegally selling secrets to China while employed by MIT. The professor received $19M from the Obama administration and $29M from the Chinese Communist Party.
https://justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/mit


Do you think Joe biden will be asked about this? Joe met with him more than 7 times between 2008 and 2016.

Would Donald Trump have been asked?

[almostgone]

For right now, I'm just going to address the China involvement. China is bleeding us dry of scientific advancements, technological innovation, and money.

The Chinese aren't stupid by any means and just from a machine tool standpoint, their equipment has matured at a extremely rapid rate over the past few decades. They have benefitted greatly from stolen technology, process innovation, etc. Quite a lot of companies now no longer have their latest and greatest generation of products produced in China simply because they know proprietary information will get "appropriated".

Just as an example, look at how rapidly they have upgraded their military, particularly their Air Force and their Navy...almost to a near peer level.

Makes you wonder how deeply they're entrenched into our economy.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

your link doesn't work

Chen did not disclose his connections to China, as is required on federal grant applications, authorities said. He and his research group collected about $29 million in foreign dollars, including millions from a Chinese government funded university funded, while getting $19 million in grants from U.S federal agencies for his work at MIT since 2013, authorities said

“It is not illegal to collaborate with foreign researchers. It is illegal to lie about it,” Massachusetts U.S. Attorney Andrew Lelling told reporters.

https://www.boston.com/news/crime/20...work-for-china

My take is some some MIT researcher didn't disclose that he was getting grants from China.
Maybe he wanted as much grant money to conduct research as he could get and decided to cheat the system.
Or..
Maybe he didn't know the rules.

Not sure what Biden has to do with it.

Haven't seen anything showing he is a Biden supporter and Democratic donor.
I wouldn't doubt it since he is a professor at MIT.

Perhaps you could post your link where you found out about him.
You obviously didn't find it on a .gov site.

[Hughinn]

your link doesn't work

Chen did not disclose his connections to China, as is required on federal grant applications, authorities said. He and his research group collected about $29 million in foreign dollars, including millions from a Chinese government funded university funded, while getting $19 million in grants from U.S federal agencies for his work at MIT since 2013, authorities said

“It is not illegal to collaborate with foreign researchers. It is illegal to lie about it,” Massachusetts U.S. Attorney Andrew Lelling told reporters.

https://www.boston.com/news/crime/20...work-for-china

My take is some some MIT researcher didn't disclose that he was getting grants from China.
Maybe he wanted as much grant money to conduct research as he could get and decided to cheat the system.
Or..
Maybe he didn't know the rules.

Not sure what Biden has to do with it.

Bidens son was making alot of money in China, during this time period. And joe biden personally associated himself with chen.

https://lidblog.com/big-guy-is-joe-biden/

I just wonder if he'll ever be asked. I mean, the bobulinski guy undeniably knew both bidens. Dealt with both of them. He seems credible. Why was Joe never asked to explain any of it?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Bidens son was making alot of money It's better than going bankrupt. He is under investigation for tax evasion. Let's see what the courts say. in China, during this time period. And joe biden personally associated himself with chen.

https://lidblog.com/big-guy-is-joe-biden/

I just wonder if he'll ever be asked.

Not sure that the two are even remotely connected.
But nice plug of Biden's son.


Haven't seen anything showing he is a Biden supporter and Democratic donor.
I wouldn't doubt it since he is obviously brilliant. His is a professor at MIT after all.

Perhaps you could post your link where you found out about him.
You obviously didn't find it on a .gov site.

[wango]

Well, Trump has a few days left. He could nuke China off of the map and I’ll feel better about him.

[wango]

On second thought, leave some for Iran & North Korea. Then clear our boys out and level Afghanistan as well. Should make Joe’s job a tad better.

[tarmyg]

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/m...ed-grant-fraud

[Hughinn]

Not sure that the two are even remotely connected.
But nice plug of Biden's son.


Haven't seen anything showing he is a Biden supporter and Democratic donor.
I wouldn't doubt it since he is obviously brilliant. His is a professor at MIT after all.

Perhaps you could post your link where you found out about him.
You obviously didn't find it on a .gov site.

My point was that he was democrat donor, and an associate of Joe biden has been arrested. And nobody will ever hear about it in mainstream media.

https://www.breitbart.com/2020-elect...t-experts-say/

Above is hunter bidens business practices in foreign nations around the world. Joe biden said he never discussed business with his son. But this bobulinski says otherwise. And has some compelling information
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...on_hotel.html#!

Joe biden has never denied any of this, because he doesn't have to. Nobody in mainstream media will ask.

We seen months and months of pee tapes, collusion hoaxes and anybody willing to accuse Donald Trump of jaywalking got investigated.

But all this gets buried for joe biden. Why?

It seems like a fair set of questions though. One that a logical person would want to know from an elected leader, like, why did Chinese firms pay millions for "consulting fees" t I the sone of our VP? Why did the mayor of Moscow wife wire him millions of dollars?

https://nypost.com/2020/09/23/hunter...onaire-report/

If all of this is fact, then it ought to be easily proved, or disproved, except nobody is asking. If not purchasing influence from the guy who heads our foreign policy, then what was all that money for?

Seems like fair questions. But nobody dares ask biden directly. He doesn't deny the allegations, because he doesn't have to. Nobody in mainstream media will make him address it. Even though we just seen justice Kavanaugh forced to address his high school activities with the entire senate. Nobody will ask Joe, what looks to me to be very relevant and disturbing situations

I believe it's obvious myself. Joe biden is the status quo. The people, who rule here, like the way it is, and they don't want it to change. Joe is one of those people. And the establishment media, carries water for him. The establishment has won, fairly or not. The rich bought their right to rule. And only stupidity allowed it. (My opinion)

Once again, the billionaire class has gotten what they wanted (fact) And the working class gets the shaft.

[Hughinn]

I might add that this is typical of these people. Another example would be the democrat governor of California who kept his own winery open, while shutting down all the bars and restaurants in California, and still receiving federal funding

https://californiaglobe.com/governor...tection-loans/

[wango]

I might add that this is typical of these people. Another example would be the democrat governor of California who kept his own winery open, while shutting down all the bars and restaurants in California, and still receiving federal funding

https://californiaglobe.com/governor...tection-loans/

But he has a killer taste for restaurants, sensational choice; so I give the dude a pass.

[Hughinn]

Yet another example is the deputy attorney General basically admitting that b Obama-biden administration officials lied to him and the fisa court to concoct a lie, then illegally spy on an incoming administration.

All this on orders given from whithinnthe top ranks of the obama biden administration.

Will Joe ever be asked about his involvement in such an egregious abuse of power?
Will any of the democrat operatives be held accountable? Will the leaders?

No, no and no.

So there's equal justice for you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ng4_sqVT9ec

Here's yet another democrat official caught breaking laws and protocols, showing herself to be either corrupt or incompetent.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7nSNLneSdxk

This also under the pbama biden administration.

Will Joe be asked about his knowledge and pr involvement in any of this?

[Hughinn]

Here's top FBI brass basically admitting that they illegally set up an incoming administration to prevent destabilizing the status quo.

The people in Washington and the rich likenthe way it is.

They didn't want it to destabilize

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ANohtXQhkQw

This was obamas FBI.

What was joe Biden's involvement?

Why wasn't he asked while running for president? Wouldn't most Americans be interested in knowing? Why weren't they told?

Why weren't they told about joe Biden's and the biden families dealings in Ukraine, that joe held well after he was VP? What happened to this?

https://thefederalist.com/2020/09/17...abotage-trump/

[Hughinn]

The wealthy media establishment buried all this information to help one of their own. BIDEN. a lifelong member of the clique, as corrupt as they come. The status quo.

What if people were told?
https://pjmedia.com/election/tyler-o...andal-n1132603

That is why Donald Trump was elected.

Trump’s election wasn’t about Trump. It was a throbbing middle finger in the face of America’s ruling class. It was a gesture of contempt, a howl of rage, the end result of decades of selfish and unwise decisions made by selfish and unwise leaders. Happy countries don’t elect Donald Trump president.
Desperate ones do.
In retrospect, the lesson seemed obvious: Ignore voters for long enough and you get Donald Trump.

Yet the people at whom the message was aimed never received it. Instead of pausing, listening, thinking, and changing, America’s ruling class withdrew into a defensive crouch. Beginning on election night, they explained away their loss with theories as pat and implausible as a summer action movie
Trump won because fake news tricked simple minded voters.
Trump won because Russian agents “hacked” the election.
Trump won because of "racism"

None of blamed themselves.

And now, instead of learning from it, they just ram thier will down the throats of America's and force them to swallow it.

We'll see how it all works out.

[< <Samson> >]

Y do people have to b so greedy

If I can scam a few mil from anywhere, you’ll never hear from me again

[Hughinn]

Y do people have to b so greedy

If I can scam a few mil from anywhere, you’ll never hear from me again

Lol. Thanks for that Sampson.

Made me laugh

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Several points to make...

1: You complain that the "mainstream media" won't even cover certain issues that you deem news worthy.

I find is funny that the right wing complains so much about the MSM.
Please realize that Fox News is the most watched News channel.
And Fox News is 100% right wing leaning.



2: You complain that a Democratic Governor received a government loan to keep his winery afloat while bars and restaurants were closed down.

from the site you provided:
"The US Treasury confirmed Monday that the loan was directly responsible for saving at least 14 jobs at PlumpJack businesses."

https://californiaglobe.com/governor...tection-loans/

Perhaps you would've wanted those people to lose jobs.
Perhaps you don't realize that the bars and restaurants could apply for the exact same loan he did.
Perhaps you don't realize that Donald Trump Jr. himself took out one of these exact same loans.

Trump Friends and Family Cleared for Millions in Small Business Bailout
Beneficiaries of the PPP included a lettuce farming venture backed by Trump’s son, Kushner companies, and a dentist who golfs with the president. The figures were released after a lawsuit by several news organizations, including ProPublica.

https://www.propublica.org/article/t...siness-bailout

3: You state that Trump won in 2016 because people voted against the status quo.
I agree.
Trump won in his primaries because people were voting against the status quo.
Trump then beat Hillary because people were voting against Hillary and the status quo.
No argument with me on this.

But what you are blind to see is that...
Trump lost in 2020 because people voted against Trump.
They would rather go back to another 4 years of somewhat corrupted and ineffectual "status quo" then suffer another 4 years of Trump.
They voted for the lesser of two evils.

And just so you know...
Trump claimed fraud. The onus is on Trump to prove fraud and he has failed miserably.

4: You keep talking about the despicable elite ruling class.
Well the Trump family is part of the ruling class and has always been.

He was friends with Epstein for fuck's sake.
"I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life."

He backstabs his allies.
Just look at what he did to VP pence.

Hell, he even isn't paying Guiliani.

And just so you know...
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Ivanka and Kushner are protected by secret service. These men will die for them.
Yet Ivanka and Kushner won't even let them pee in their house.

Our government had to rent a studio apartment since 2017 because the people they will die for are ungrateful as fuck.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...jared-kushner/



So yes we agree on some things.

There are elites in this world who think they are better than us.

But we disagree that Trump is the savior of the working man.
And we disagree that Trump is the savior for America.

#makeAmericagreatagain

[wango]

Y do people have to b so greedy

If I can scam a few mil from anywhere, you’ll never hear from me again

I’m thinking it’s because it’s easy to get away with it & easy to take advantage. Plus, some folks have lost their moral compass. With that said, I am NOT implying everyone with wealth is greedy or has gotten their wealth inappropriately.

Take trumpty dumpty for instance. Does anyone really know how much tax he has paid on all of his supposed wealth? Sounds “elitist” and “greedy” to me. Hell, with that much wealth, I think a person should be proud to declare that this is how much is going back to the nation that afforded them the opportunity to make that wealth in the first place. Heck, how much is it going to cost us just so he can have an “f-you Joe” departure before the inauguration. Tell me that isn’t greed? If the buck stops with the man in charge, you can be damn sure donnie will figure out a loophole for that buck to end up in his wallet.

[Cuz]

I’m thinking it’s because it’s easy to get away with it & easy to take advantage. Plus, some folks have lost their moral compass. With that said, I am NOT implying everyone with wealth is greedy or has gotten their wealth inappropriately.

Take trumpty dumpty for instance. Does anyone really know how much tax he has paid on all of his supposed wealth? Sounds “elitist” and “greedy” to me. Hell, with that much wealth, I think a person should be proud to declare that this is how much is going back to the nation that afforded them the opportunity to make that wealth in the first place. Heck, how much is it going to cost us just so he can have an “f-you Joe” departure before the inauguration. Tell me that isn’t greed? If the buck stops with the man in charge, you can be damn sure donnie will figure out a loophole for that buck to end up in his wallet.

Speaking of taxes, i noticed on my paycheck they have increased some this year. Just wildly guessing id say 5% at minimum from last year i went back and compared. Federal, social security, and state increased I had a feeling

[wango]

Speaking of taxes, i noticed on my paycheck they have increased some this year. Just wildly guessing id say 5% at minimum from last year i went back and compared. Federal, social security, and state increased I had a feeling

The whole taxation system needs to be overworked for sure. But what has to be a given, is that when you do pay your taxes, that money is used efficiently & that’s what pisses me off.

I am one of those naive guys that still feels that we need more taxes to increase our military & remain vastly superior (to the point that no country in their right mind would so much as consider war with us) & to improve our infrastructure. However, I’m one of those guys that says the taxes need to be a ton more on the wealthy & ways for them to legally evade taxes, eliminated. I was poking fun at trump because he seems to be a perfect example. The guy lives the life of luxury and everyone else gets to pay more taxes, while he pays less.

Do you know how much interest these billionaires and mega millionaires make in a month? Crap, let them foot most of the bill for bailing this country out of this Covid crisis & get us back on our feet. Please, they’ll get their money back in no time, plus how much can you really spend and on what? To tax the general population more, who just got financially crushed by this situation makes no sense at all.

[Hughinn]

Several points to make...

1: You complain that the "mainstream media" won't even cover certain issues that you deem news worthy.

I find is funny that the right wing complains so much about the MSM.
Please realize that Fox News is the most watched News channel.
And Fox News is 100% right wing leaning.



2: You complain that a Democratic Governor received a government loan to keep his winery afloat while bars and restaurants were closed down.

from the site you provided:
"The US Treasury confirmed Monday that the loan was directly responsible for saving at least 14 jobs at PlumpJack businesses."

https://californiaglobe.com/governor...tection-loans/

Perhaps you would've wanted those people to lose jobs.
Perhaps you don't realize that the bars and restaurants could apply for the exact same loan he did.
Perhaps you don't realize that Donald Trump Jr. himself took out one of these exact same loans.

Trump Friends and Family Cleared for Millions in Small Business Bailout
Beneficiaries of the PPP included a lettuce farming venture backed by Trump’s son, Kushner companies, and a dentist who golfs with the president. The figures were released after a lawsuit by several news organizations, including ProPublica.

https://www.propublica.org/article/t...siness-bailout

3: You state that Trump won in 2016 because people voted against the status quo.
I agree.
Trump won in his primaries because people were voting against the status quo.
Trump then beat Hillary because people were voting against Hillary and the status quo.
No argument with me on this.

But what you are blind to see is that...
Trump lost in 2020 because people voted against Trump.
They would rather go back to another 4 years of somewhat corrupted and ineffectual "status quo" then suffer another 4 years of Trump.
They voted for the lesser of two evils.

And just so you know...
Trump claimed fraud. The onus is on Trump to prove fraud and he has failed miserably.

4: You keep talking about the despicable elite ruling class.
Well the Trump family is part of the ruling class and has always been.

He was friends with Epstein for fuck's sake.
"I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life."

He backstabs his allies.
Just look at what he did to VP pence.

Hell, he even isn't paying Guiliani.

And just so you know...
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Ivanka and Kushner are protected by secret service. These men will die for them.
Yet Ivanka and Kushner won't even let them pee in their house.

Our government had to rent a studio apartment since 2017 because the people they will die for are ungrateful as fuck.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...jared-kushner/



So yes we agree on some things.

There are elites in this world who think they are better than us.

But we disagree that Trump is the savior of the working man.
And we disagree that Trump is the savior for America.

#makeAmericagreatagain

You make some good points there DD.

And I can agree that not all wealthy people are part of the ruling class i mentioned. But nearly all of the ruling class is wealthy. Greedy too.

But I do disagree on a few things.

First, no right leaning person would say or believe that fox news is 100% right wing. And despite the existence of fox, the vast majority of the media, are extensions of the DNC. Nobody can logically deny that. Nobody does.


Second, I never said trump was "the savior of America" but I will say this : the majority of American blue collar working class supported Donald Trump. Nobody denies that, and everyone knows that.

The majority of the American millionaire and billionaires class supported joe Biden. Nobody denies that, everyone knows that.

On that point, it's plain to see that joe biden was better for the millionaire and billionaires class, and Donald Trump was better for the working class. Or at least that's what most of either group believed, since most people vote and serve for their own interests. Including mainstream media owners and managers. Millionaires and billionaires themselves.

You're free, of course to believe whatever you want, for now, we all are.

You may not believe trump was better for the working class. But most of the working class believed he was.

You may not think joe biden was better for the rich, but most of the rich did.

You may not like trump for whatever reason, but aside from being a brash, egotistical, loudmouth asshole, he is nothing else joe biden isn't. Morally, professionally or personally.
Aw far as backstabbing? Didn't kamala harris say she believed joe biden was a racist and rapist? Because she did. Everyone seen it.

SO, lastly, is this what we've come to? No way to change a system that doesn't serve the majority. All we can do is pick the face we get to see on the TV screen. A meaningless gesture meant as nothing more than a way to pacify the masses? We all get to see, and know and acknowledge the leaders are corrupt, but we can't hold them accountable or change it. Is that democracy?

Millions of Americans have felt that way for many years. "Vote for the lesser evil" is how you put it,, and I can understand that. We've all been doing just that for decades.

Donald Trump changed that for millions and millions of people. Close to half of this nation really.

Joe biden didnt change that for anybody. And That's especially sad but true for the people who voted for him.

Quite sad really.

[wango]

For clarity, you said Joe Biden was better for the rich. Also Joe Biden didn’t (do?) that for anybody. Not being an a-hole, but those are past tense. Joe Biden hasn’t served a day as President yet. We gave Trump 4 years to convince the nation that he was worthy of another term. BTW, didn’t one of our members just say that he thinks he’s paying more in taxes under Trump (I’m suspecting, but not sure that is something he didn’t want). How about giving Biden the same 4 years and decide then?

And BTW, the ultra rich sure as crap voted for Trump over Hillary in 2016. Why? He’d be better for making $ for them.

[tarmyg]

My 2c. You can support Trump or you can support America - not both

[Hughinn]

For clarity, you said Joe Biden was better for the rich. Also Joe Biden didn’t (do?) that for anybody. Not being an a-hole, but those are past tense. Joe Biden hasn’t served a day as President yet. We gave Trump 4 years to convince the nation that he was worthy of another term. BTW, didn’t one of our members just say that he thinks he’s paying more in taxes under Trump (I’m suspecting, but not sure that is something he didn’t want). How about giving Biden the same 4 years and decide then?

And BTW, the ultra rich sure as crap voted for Trump over Hillary in 2016. Why? He’d be better for making $ for them.

No sir.

It's a well documented fact the wealthy heavily favored Hillary Clinton

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/11/mill...ver-trump.html

Just as they did joe Biden.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...den-over-trump

I will concede your point though, and admit biden hasn't served as president yet. And who he helps or not in reality remains to be seen.

I will digress however, as to your point on trump having 4 years to convince people, he is one of a few president's that actually substantially increased his voter turnout for a second term. Obama didn't.

[Hughinn]

My 2c. You can support Trump or you can support America - not both

You're in Sweden?

[wango]

My 2c. You can support Trump or you can support America - not both

Well, guess many disagree. Could be why we have 25,000 National Guard members in DC. and more fences recently built than those to keep out our Southern neighbors

[wango]

No sir.

It's a well documented fact the wealthy heavily favored Hillary Clinton

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/11/mill...ver-trump.html

Just as they did joe Biden.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...den-over-trump

I will concede your point though, and admit biden hasn't served as president yet. And who he helps or not in reality remains to be seen.

31 +15 (undecided) = 46, which is greater than 44 for Biden. Poll also taken 1/2 year prior to actual election.

Yep - 2019, the smart money was already moving away from Trump and made the better decision this November. Who wants to make less money, that’s elitist?

[Hughinn]

31 +15 (undecided) = 46, which is greater than 44 for Biden. Poll also taken 1/2 year prior to actual election.

Yep - 2019, the smart money was already moving away from Trump and made the better decision this November. Who wants to make less money, that’s elitist?

Semantics do not change the fact that the most wealthy people in America by majority support democrats. Or that the most wealthy donors in America supported joe biden.


Who wants to make less money, that’s elitist? I never claimed it was elitist, as much as I claimed that the elite are not stupid, and I agree with you on your point, they went with the man who they thought would make them more money : joe Biden

The working class went with the man they thought would return them more prosperity : Donald Trump

https://www.quora.com/Are-the-wealth...ocrats?share=1

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Semantics do not change the fact that the most wealthy people in America by majority support democrats. Or that the most wealthy donors in America supported joe biden.


Who wants to make less money, that’s elitist? I never claimed it was elitist, as much as I claimed that the elite are not stupid, and I agree with you on your point, they went with the man who they thought would make them more money : joe Biden

The working class went with the man they thought would return them more prosperity : Donald Trump

https://www.quora.com/Are-the-wealth...ocrats?share=1

You may be right that more wealthy people vote Democratic.
You may be right that more working class Americans voted for Trump.

Where I disagree with you is what you state in red above...

People do not simply vote for who will make them more money.

Some people vote for gun rights.
Some vote for women's rights.
Some vote with their wallet.
Some vote for the climate.
The list is endless.

Many people vote for a mixture of many different things.
Some people vote for simply just one thing. (My mom votes pro-life. Pure and simple. Many people vote pro-gun. No ifs ands or buts.)

I personally will gladly pay higher taxes for universal healthcare.
I feel strongly that every kid in America should be able to get treatment.
Since you grew up poor, you must've had times when your parents didn't go to the doctor because they couldn't afford it.
I think every American should be able to get free basic healthcare.

So no... I at least do not vote for who will make me more money.

I think the rich make more money under Republicans.
Republicans cut taxes on the rich. Democrats raise taxes on the rich.

I think many of the super rich have so much money that financial decisions do not drive them as much as you think.
Bill Gates has donated 45.5 billion dollars.

[wango]

Hughinn, nice posting with you buddy.

I’m trying to learn both sides of the argument and definitely not close minded to what you are saying.

I think what irks me is just when perhaps someone from the right or a conservative automatically gets classified as a supremacist or a gun fanatic, etc (completely unfair and I never have). If you are thought to be on the left or liberal, or have $, that automatically you have negative generalizations made against you. Maybe it’s just most of real my friends are diverse between left, right and in-between and we don’t throw around generalizations.

[wango]

You may be right that more wealthy people vote Democratic.
You may be right that more working class Americans voted for Trump.

Where I disagree with you is what you state in red above...

People do not simply vote for who will make them more money.

Some people vote for gun rights.
Some vote for women's rights.
Some vote with their wallet.
Some vote for the climate.
The list is endless.

Many people vote for a mixture of many different things.
Some people vote for simply just one thing. (My mom votes pro-life. Pure and simple. Many people vote pro-gun. No ifs ands or buts.)

I personally will gladly pay higher taxes for universal healthcare.
I feel strongly that every kid in America should be able to get treatment.
Since you grew up poor, you must've had times when your parents didn't go to the doctor because they couldn't afford it.
I think every American should be able to get free basic healthcare.

So no... I at least do not vote for who will make me more money.

I think the rich make more money under Republicans.
Republicans cut taxes on the rich. Democrats raise taxes on the rich.

I think many of the super rich have so much money that financial decisions do not drive them as much as you think.
Bill Gates has donated 45.5 billion dollars.

DD, sorry, I’m afraid I’ve known several people for multiple presidential elections that vote purely for money. I agree with everything you generally post however. Speaking of the super rich, I wish the super rich would get together and help bail us out of the financial crush we are experiencing now and for the next few years. It’s going to take a lot to dig ourselves out of the Covid hole that will continue to get much deeper.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Wango...

Please reread my post.

I specifically said some people vote with their wallet.

Where I disagree with Haughninn is that:
Saying that people vote solely with their wallet is a false blanket statement.

While some vote solely with their wallet.
Some people don’t vote solely with their wallet.

Some people vote with many matters in mind.

I, like you, know some people who vote soley with their wallet.

I however know many more people that vote not solely with their wallet.

[wango]

Not an issue DD. Misinterpreted your post & see my mistake.

[wango]

Interesting read, from today’s paper.

http://enewspaper.latimes.com/infini...f-6f86d9fe5083

[Hughinn]

Hughinn, nice posting with you buddy.

I’m trying to learn both sides of the argument and definitely not close minded to what you are saying.

I think what irks me is just when perhaps someone from the right or a conservative automatically gets classified as a supremacist or a gun fanatic, etc (completely unfair and I never have). If you are thought to be on the left or liberal, or have $, that automatically you have negative generalizations made against you. Maybe it’s just most of real my friends are diverse between left, right and in-between and we don’t throw around generalizations.

Likewise sir. I appreciate the exchange.
It irks me as well. All too often an accusation of someone being a racist or supremacist is used to shut down logical debate, when one side has run of logical points to make. College campuses regularly use such accusations to stifle any sort guest speaker with conservative views or ideas contrary to the leftist mantra pushed on most campuses. It's a very bad situation we see unfolding

You may be right that more wealthy people vote Democratic.
You may be right that more working class Americans voted for Trump.

Where I disagree with you is what you state in red above...

People do not simply vote for who will make them more money.

Some people vote for gun rights.
Some vote for women's rights.
Some vote with their wallet.
Some vote for the climate.
The list is endless.

Many people vote for a mixture of many different things.
Some people vote for simply just one thing. (My mom votes pro-life. Pure and simple. Many people vote pro-gun. No ifs ands or buts.)

I personally will gladly pay higher taxes for universal healthcare.
I feel strongly that every kid in America should be able to get treatment.
Since you grew up poor, you must've had times when your parents didn't go to the doctor because they couldn't afford it.
I think every American should be able to get free basic healthcare.

So no... I at least do not vote for who will make me more money.

I think the rich make more money under Republicans.
Republicans cut taxes on the rich. Democrats raise taxes on the rich.

I think many of the super rich have so much money that financial decisions do not drive them as much as you think.
Bill Gates has donated 45.5 billion dollars.

Of course you're right about the fact that many people don't vote directly for pocketbook issues, and you're right that a few people don't vote pocketbook at all, but single issue, like guns or abortion.

However, a sound argument can be made that many of the side issues people vote for, can be tied to the pocketbook indirectly.

Healthcare? Definitely a pocketbook issue, as the entire debate on Healthcare is centered around cost and availability. Both financial issues.

Women's rights? Racial equality? Education? issues center around a perceived or actual inequality of certain rights and financial disparities or opportunities. I.E equal pay, for women, or racial income disparity, the cost and disparity of education etc,etc. The list can go on and on. In the end, most of it comes down to the pocketbook either directly or indirectly is the primary point. And that most people undeniably vote for the pocketbook at the end of the day. Even if not consciously or directly


It's very commendable for you to have such a view as the one you expressed on Healthcare and being willing to sacrifice something yourself to help. But, I think most people on either side all agree that Healthcare affordability and availability need to be addressed.

We just don't agree on the solution.

For myself, I don't know if you'd consider me on the right or not here, but the creation of a massive nationwide administration tasked with distribution of Healthcare cannot reasonably be a solution to making Healthcare more affordable. Especially considering how many cents on the dollar spent on actual healthcare will go to administrative fees and salaries of people working in expensive newly build high rise offices in Washington DC where nothing seems to ever get done efficiently and,, not to mention the amount of inevitable corruption and siphoning off that is bound to take place anytime big government is involved.

In the end, a logically thinking person can see how such a path cannot really lower the cost of medical care for the nation in general.

It just doesn't make sense.

But I, like everyone else on both sides agree that something has to be done about the cost of Healthcare

[wango]

OK, we need a thread in which this forum (respectfully of everyone’s side & no flaming/finger pointing); solves every major issue in this country from A to Z.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Just some basic facts on US healthcare vs other nations.

We spend more money per person on healthcare by far.
We also spend more money per person when it is looked at as a % of GDP by far.

This includes nations that provide universal healthcare to all.
The nations that provide universal healthcare also have private care.



https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/...er-capita-2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ure_per_capita

I am self-employed.
I spend $25,000 on healthcare insurance a year plus a $5000-6000 deductible.

Let's say my family makes $200,000/yr and let's say after taxes that is $150,000.
That means I spend 20% of my after tax income on healthcare.

People fly to other countries to get surgery because it is cheaper to fly, get a hotel, and fly back then it is to get surgery here.
A substantial art of our healthcare cost is insurance for the doctors because lawsuits are rampant in America.

The healthcare system is broken IMO.

[Hughinn]

Just some basic facts on US healthcare vs other nations.

We spend more money per person on healthcare by far.
We also spend more money per person when it is looked at as a % of GDP by far.

This includes nations that provide universal healthcare to all.
The nations that provide universal healthcare also have private care.



https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/...er-capita-2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ure_per_capita

I am self-employed.
I spend $25,000 on healthcare insurance a year plus a $5000-6000 deductible.

Let's say my family makes $200,000/yr and let's say after taxes that is $150,000.
That means I spend 20% of my after tax income on healthcare.

People fly to other countries to get surgery because it is cheaper to fly, get a hotel, and fly back then it is to get surgery here.
A substantial art of our healthcare cost is insurance for the doctors because lawsuits are rampant in America.

The healthcare system is broken IMO.

I agree the Healthcare system in America is fucked up.

It's interesting you made that comment about people going to other countries

My sister in law went to the Dr to get a Lipoma removed. The doctor sent her to the imaging place, they did thier thing, then sent her back to the doctor, then the doctor sent her to a surgeon, who did a consultation, afterword sent her to a lab for testing, then back to the surgeon. He then made an appointment for surgery.

But by then, after all the appointments and co-pays and lab fees and imaging charges, they had used thier hsa dollars up, and couldn't afford the surgery. Literally nearly 2gs and she still got no real medical service.

A few months later, we all loaded up for the weekend and drove 5 hours to del Rio. (We live in texas) a simple clinical visit to a local Mexican doctor, and he shot her up with a local, cut out the Lipoma and stitched her right up, right there in his clinic. 200$ for his services and another 20$ for a bottle of antibiotics and we spent the rest of the weekend sightseeing.

Thats why Healthcare in America is a joke. Its over regulated, impersonal and just plain unreasonable. I really don't see any more government involvement helping it.

Fwiw, I have an employer sponsored Healthcare plan that most people wou,d consider pretty good. I still have 3k deductible

[redz]

Just do you know health care in Canada is brutal and at 200k income you pay 54% income tax. I’d rather pay the premium and get quality health care, Canada’s health care is terrible. Even at 100k you pay around 45%. In Ontario there is also an additional premium for health care too that is deducted. Add to that 13% sales tax on everything. I’d trade this for the US model any day....

[Hughinn]

Just do you know health care in Canada is brutal and at 200k income you pay 54% income tax. I’d rather pay the premium and get quality health care, Canada’s health care is terrible. Even at 100k you pay around 45%. In Ontario there is also an additional premium for health care too that is deducted. Add to that 13% sales tax on everything. I’d trade this for the US model any day....

That's my point exactly sir, and thank you for your input.

More government involvement in such cases does not reduce the cost of Healthcare for the nation as a whole.

Which is exactly why I oppose any sort of government run universal Healthcare.