Anti- estrogens with this cycle??

[Doughboyx64]

I wanna do a cycle of 50mg of whinny EOD and 50 Mg of Equipoise EOD...Since they dont convert would i need anti estrogens with this cycle? Its my first one, and i was looking under cycle for novices and this was there...and since they dont convert i wanted to do it because i dont have any anti estrogens

[halifaxsteve]

that is a very poor cycle, and what you have is poorly structured.

do some research and try again

[D3m3nt3d]

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...threadid=65080

You already had your answers on this thread by you.

[BUYLONGTERM]

that is a very poor cycle, and what you have is poorly structured.

do some research and try again

Agreed. Slow down and do some more research. That cycle doesn't make a bit of sense? If you able to get AS, I'm sure you can get some Anti-e's...

[JohnDoe1234]

Ok here goes. I am sure there are members out there that are going to disagree, but what i'm going to tell you is true. EQ is a great drug in many ways, it a drug where the "more is better" philosophy really applies. DO NOT listen to anyone that tells you that since you are a novice all you need is 300mgs or less a week of EQ. To that I say BULLSHIT, The best dose for ANYONE is between 600-900mgs a week. These may seem like very high doses, especially for A newbie, but I assure you they are not. Even at such doses you will still not need to run Anti-es throughout the whole cycle. You will of course need clomid at the end restart test production. Trust me on this one, as far as conversion to estrogen EQ does only one of two things; Usually not at all, or very very little. And since winny is going to be included in your cycle you should knoow that it does not convert either. What I have told is from hands on experience, both with myself and close friends of mine. Good luck, and don't get nervous at the idea of Such HIGH doses.
If you have any questions PM me.

[Pheedno]

Ok here goes. I am sure there are members out there that are going to disagree, but what i'm going to tell you is true. EQ is a great drug in many ways, it a drug where the "more is better" philosophy really applies. DO NOT listen to anyone that tells you that since you are a novice all you need is 300mgs or less a week of EQ. To that I say BULLSHIT, The best dose for ANYONE is between 600-900mgs a week. These may seem like very high doses, especially for A newbie, but I assure you they are not. Even at such doses you will still not need to run Anti-es throughout the whole cycle. You will of course need clomid at the end restart test production. Trust me on this one, as far as conversion to estrogen EQ does only one of two things; Usually not at all, or very very little. And since winny is going to be included in your cycle you should knoow that it does not convert either. What I have told is from hands on experience, both with myself and close friends of mine. Good luck, and don't get nervous at the idea of Such HIGH doses.
If you have any questions PM me.

Well, your right. Members will disagree with you and I'm one of them. First off, 600mg a week is not a starting dose on any AS(I did 400mg of EQ on my first run of it). 2nd, you mentioned nothing about test which is the most crucial compound to develope a cycle. 3. No matter if you have a high conversion rate(test), a low conversion rate(EQ), or no conversion rate(Winny). YOU NEED ANTI-ESTROGENS. You may choose to leave them to the side, but considering you can have an estrogen rebound at the end of a cycle when HPTA is recovering, a man who is not prepared with anti-e's is a fool. They are a must, and just as important as the AS you've purchased. That, I know from experience.

This is this guys first cycle. Advising him to endulge in a cycle consisting of 950mg of steroids a week without the use of test is a bad idea.

[punk_bbuilder]

Well, your right. Members will disagree with you and I'm one of them. First off, 600mg a week is not a starting dose on any AS(I did 400mg of EQ on my first run of it). 2nd, you mentioned nothing about test which is the most crucial compound to develope a cycle. 3. No matter if you have a high conversion rate(test), a low conversion rate(EQ), or no conversion rate(Winny). YOU NEED ANTI-ESTROGENS. You may choose to leave them to the side, but considering you can have an estrogen rebound at the end of a cycle when HPTA is recovering, a man who is not prepared with anti-e's is a fool. They are a must, and just as important as the AS you've purchased. That, I know from experience.

This is this guys first cycle. Advising him to endulge in a cycle consisting of 950mg of steroids a week without the use of test is a bad idea.

Right on Pheedno, i agree with you all the way. And why shouldnt i or anyone else your a VET.

[JohnDoe1234]

Well, your right. Members will disagree with you and I'm one of them. First off, 600mg a week is not a starting dose on any AS(I did 400mg of EQ on my first run of it). 2nd, you mentioned nothing about test which is the most crucial compound to develope a cycle. 3. No matter if you have a high conversion rate(test), a low conversion rate(EQ), or no conversion rate(Winny). YOU NEED ANTI-ESTROGENS. You may choose to leave them to the side, but considering you can have an estrogen rebound at the end of a cycle when HPTA is recovering, a man who is not prepared with anti-e's is a fool. They are a must, and just as important as the AS you've purchased. That, I know from experience.

This is this guys first cycle. Advising him to endulge in a cycle consisting of 950mg of steroids a week without the use of test is a bad idea.

Yeah but Pheedno, winny is a form of test. Granted it's not super strong but it is still a form of test. I personally feel this is ok for a beginners cycle. Don't get hung up on the numbers. If he uses less than 600mgs of EQ a week I think he will be wasting his money. This is not a cycle that is going to pack on 25+lbs of mass on him. But he should gain a good 10-15lbs, and you had better believe he going to get REAL strong and very cut/solid off this cycle. Also his gains will be very maintainable as well. He can keep Anti-e on the side, but I really can't see him needing them.

[toolman]

Pheednos right. That is still too much for a newbie. He can grow on much less if he is eating and lifting right. I know I did.

[Pheedno]

Yeah but Pheedno, winny is a form of test. Granted it's not super strong but it is still a form of test. I personally feel this is ok for a beginners cycle. Don't get hung up on the numbers. If he uses less than 600mgs of EQ a week I think he will be wasting his money. This is not a cycle that is going to pack on 25+lbs of mass on him. But he should gain a good 10-15lbs, and you had better believe he going to get REAL strong and very cut/solid off this cycle. Also his gains will be very maintainable as well. He can keep Anti-e on the side, but I really can't see him needing them.

I mis-typed in my previous post. It's not 950mg, it's 775mg( I thought he suggested ED on the winny)

No other form of test can substitute the actual compound. Also not to mention winny (typically run for 6wks) would leave him 4wks minimum of EQ alone(12wks is optimal for EQ so that leaves 6) which is a bad idea. A cycle without test in any part of it is a poorly laid out cycle. And he will not get REAL strong off of a mild androgenic and mild anabolic compared to a simple(but effective) Test cycle

Another way to look at this
600mg EQ + 175mg Winny= 775mg = 10-15Lbs(by your estimate)
or
500mg of Test Enan= 20+lbs

The matter of maintaing comes down to training, diet, and PCT. These factors known to expertise will leave you with 85-95% of your gains.

[JohnDoe1234]

I mis-typed in my previous post. It's not 950mg, it's 775mg( I thought he suggested ED on the winny)

No other form of test can substitute the actual compound. Also not to mention winny (typically run for 6wks) would leave him 4wks minimum of EQ alone(12wks is optimal for EQ so that leaves 6) which is a bad idea. A cycle without test in any part of it is a poorly laid out cycle. And he will not get REAL strong off of a mild androgenic and mild anabolic compared to a simple(but effective) Test cycle

Another way to look at this
600mg EQ + 175mg Winny= 775mg = 10-15Lbs(by your estimate)
or
500mg of Test Enan= 20+lbs

The matter of maintaing comes down to training, diet, and PCT. These factors known to expertise will leave you with 85-95% of your gains.

I think you and I have both gotten off the original topic of this thread. This guy sipmly wanted a cycle that did not require the use of Anti-e's throughout yhe entire cycle. That's what he asked for that's all I gave him. The reason why I did not include the use of test in a cycle suggestion, is because that would require him to run an anti-e throughout the whole cycle, which is exactly what he did not want. Also you speak of him being a novice and how he should not be doing such high doses of an A.S.. No offence but I don't know many people that would recommend test enan to a first timer either. Second, you say that on 500mgs of test he would gain 20+lbs, whereas my way at 750mgs he will gain 10-15lbs. If he gains 20lbs on test there is no way he is going to keep all 20lbs. He'll likey walk away with 10-15lbs. This is exactly what he'll have if done my way. Come on Pheedno, you're a vet, that obviously means you have a very good knowledge of A.S.. You must know that Test Eth rates very poorly with reguard to maintaining gains(look it up on the both the steroid effectiveness, and steriod profiles section of this very site). Also in that profile is the recommendation that newbies avoid test eth. I know how beneficial and useful test can be, but I sometimes think that many members are very hung up on test;meaning that they speak like it is the be all end all of A.S.. Also I disagree with the idea that a cycle without test is useless. For example the tried and true Deca D-bol cycle has no test, would you say that is useless?. What if you wanted a light cutting cycle of Anavar and lets just say, Winny-D?. Is that cycle useless because it has no test?, No of course not. Myself personally, I plan to run test in my next cycle, probably with Deca. But if this guy for whatever reason wants a cycle without taking Anti-e's daily, then test is not the answer. I'm not trying to flame you in anyway, actually i enjoy this little debate of our's. I like having a conversation with someone who has a good deal of knowledge, even though they don't necessarily agree with me.

[halifaxsteve]

I think you and I have both gotten off the original topic of this thread. This guy sipmly wanted a cycle that did not require the use of Anti-e's throughout yhe entire cycle. That's what he asked for that's all I gave him. The reason why I did not include the use of test in a cycle suggestion, is because that would require him to run an anti-e throughout the whole cycle, which is exactly what he did not want. Also you speak of him being a novice and how he should not be doing such high doses of an A.S.. No offence but I don't know many people that would recommend test enan to a first timer either.

To begin...pheedno is absoutely right about the necessity of running an anti-e, if for no other reason, to combat rebound (which could itself cause gyno, without running an estrogenic compound on cycle). I think it would be foolhardy to promote a cycle without anti-e's for this reason. furthermore, if embarking on this lifestyle, why not set good habits from the beginning?

and nobody seemed to comment, especially you JohnDoe1234 who is advocating this cycle, on his plan to shoot eq at 50mg EOD. there little value in injecting EQ with such a frequency IMO.

your comment on the deca dbol cycle is without merit. if running deca for at least 10 wks as it should be, who is their right mind would run dbol for 13wks? assuming you run if for 5-6wks max....what about the remaining 7-8wks until PCT begins? what would you suggest for a loss of libido during this peroid, not to mention the legarthy and general malaise that come with supressed test levels?

i respect you for doing your homework and reading (as many people fail do to). but as a word of caution, on the AR page, much of the information provided is outdated, particularily the cycle ideas. times change, and with time, knowledge, experience and science in this domain evolve, and so do cycles. you are relying on old, outdated information my friend.

[Pheedno]

I think you and I have both gotten off the original topic of this thread. This guy sipmly wanted a cycle that did not require the use of Anti-e's throughout yhe entire cycle. That's what he asked for that's all I gave him. The reason why I did not include the use of test in a cycle suggestion, is because that would require him to run an anti-e throughout the whole cycle, which is exactly what he did not want. Also you speak of him being a novice and how he should not be doing such high doses of an A.S.. No offence but I don't know many people that would recommend test enan to a first timer either. Second, you say that on 500mgs of test he would gain 20+lbs, whereas my way at 750mgs he will gain 10-15lbs. If he gains 20lbs on test there is no way he is going to keep all 20lbs. He'll likey walk away with 10-15lbs. This is exactly what he'll have if done my way. Come on Pheedno, you're a vet, that obviously means you have a very good knowledge of A.S.. You must know that Test Eth rates very poorly with reguard to maintaining gains(look it up on the both the steroid effectiveness, and steriod profiles section of this very site). Also in that profile is the recommendation that newbies avoid test eth. I know how beneficial and useful test can be, but I sometimes think that many members are very hung up on test;meaning that they speak like it is the be all end all of A.S.. Also I disagree with the idea that a cycle without test is useless. For example the tried and true Deca D-bol cycle has no test, would you say that is useless?. What if you wanted a light cutting cycle of Anavar and lets just say, Winny-D?. Is that cycle useless because it has no test?, No of course not. Myself personally, I plan to run test in my next cycle, probably with Deca. But if this guy for whatever reason wants a cycle without taking Anti-e's daily, then test is not the answer. I'm not trying to flame you in anyway, actually i enjoy this little debate of our's. I like having a conversation with someone who has a good deal of knowledge, even though they don't necessarily agree with me.

Lets disect here.
You stated you gave him a cycle in which he would not need anti-es. Well, there is no cycle in which antiestrogens are not needed(at least on hand)
You should of recommended test as it's the perfect first cycle suggestion. It' our body's natural hormone in synthetic form. Have you ever cycled multiple compounds without test and compared it to multiple compounds with? I think you'll find that experience solidifys the validity of what I'm stating. Any knowledgable person on this board is going to recommend Test for a first, so who are all these people you speak of that would recommend otherwise?
My first cycle inlcuded Test Enan, I gained 23 and kept 17, and this is when I knew 1/100 of what I know now about diet, training, and proper PCT. I say it again, with those factors known in accordance to your body, keeping gains is not a feasible worry, because if you know how to manipulate those aspects, then gains are here to stay.
You reference this sites reating on Enan. Well, it's good your searching for answers, unfortunately as my bro halifax stated, our profiles and references to cycles and the like are outdated and being worked on even as we speak. It takes quite a while to rewrite and reorganize all the info.

Test is the end all be all in terms of AS. If there was only one AS to choose from , it's Test. It's the king of all steroids, and it's the foundation with which you lay the bricks. All others are complimentary.

A cycle without test is not worhtless, you will gain. But it's a very bad idea. If you want to do a small cutting cycle. Test prop to maintain muscle while on a calorie depletion beats all if one compound is what the user wants.
Your examples- Deca/dbol. Bad mistake in terms of libido and recovery. The body coming off Deca is extremely hard to achieve recovery compared to coming off Test. That why it's recommended that you run Test a few wks past the Deca so that it has time to taper out before you start recovering HPTA. You add test to that deca/dbol, you got yourself a nice 2nd or 3rd cycle.

Next- Winny/Anavar. First will address winny, to take aenough to be effective, will be enough to strain the joints to injury(I've done winny by itself and this happened to me). Anavar will do nothing lube the joints. Throw a little Prop in there and the mild retension that prop causes will do a lot to help in aiding those joints.
Next, you got 2 17aa's on top of each other, a mistake. Two 17aa's in a cycle is fine, as long as the have suffecient time between to give the liver a break. Taking both of those at effective doses could possible send your SGOT, SGPT, and GGT levels to ranges that could be avoided with a better planned cycle

And last you state that he asked for a cycle without the use of anti-e's. My answer to that statment is that Test is always the answer(or part of it anyway) and anti-e's are always needed in the arsenal

[JohnDoe1234]

This debate is too be continued!, unfortunately right now I must go out to the bar to realx with the boys(and hopefully the girls) for while. Real long day at work. Also quick point, winny depot is not 17aa

[Pheedno]

Also quick point, winny depot is not 17aa

Yes it is bro. you can avoid a first pass through the liver from injecting, but you'll still have multiple passes to breakdown the alpha-alkylated part of the compound. This is the reason you can drink winny and it still be effective.

[TheMudMan]

This debate is too be continued!, unfortunately right now I must go out to the bar to realx with the boys(and hopefully the girls) for while. Real long day at work. Also quick point, winny depot is not 17aa

I always thought it was.

[JohnDoe1234]

I really have some valid points to make, Pheedno and gang. But I yet again find myself pressed for time. Quick point; I guess you are right pheedno about Winny-D being 17aa, because you can drink it. But whenever I have looked up Winny-D in books and on other web pages no one seems to make reference to this. I operated under the belief that since it was availiable in pills and Injectable, that the injectable version was made availiable so that people did not have to use a 17aa if they did not want to.

[jms462]

Bro i jsut got off the exact cycle u t talking about. Additionally, it was my first as well.

10 weeks QV EQ 500 mgs/wk
last 7 weeks winny eod

I am taking my clomids right now and have no signs of gyno. But, I will stress this everyone is different. U should have and anti E on hand just in case.

[JohnDoe1234]

Bro i jsut got off the exact cycle u t talking about. Additionally, it was my first as well.

10 weeks QV EQ 500 mgs/wk
last 7 weeks winny eod

I am taking my clomids right now and have no signs of gyno. But, I will stress this everyone is different. U should have and anti E on hand just in case.

What were your gains, as far as mass, strength and the like?.

[jms462]

I went from 190 to 208. My bench went from 335 to 405. My squat which was never ever good went from 315 maybe for 1 to 405 for 3. Im not really sure what else but the truth is i am very happy with the results.

[Billy_Bathgate]

Test Enanthate or Sustanon is the best compound to start with for a first cycle. A cycle without any is just ignorant IMO. Low libidio, harder recovery, lethargy, etc Why would anyone want that.

500 Test vs 350 EQ and 350 winny is going to have much less side effects

1) Much more expensive for eq/winny
2) Much harder on hair/prostate
3) Much less gains
4) More injecting nessicary
5) Unstable blood levels (EOD winny)
6) Joint pain/damage
7) Liver strain
8) Terrible lipid panels
9) Low sex drive/ Lethargy

vs Test

1) Small bloating and other e2 sides
2) Small dht

Test is the foundation for every cycle. Why, simply because testosterone is the foundation for every male. Without it, problems can and do arise.

500mg/wk is about optimum for someone that has good diet and training down.

Reguardless of what you take, you need anti-es. I dont care if its anavar or primo, you need them at least at the end for PCT.

Nolva is dirt cheap and also helps the cholesterol. Its a good thing to take it, besides the fact of what it does.

EQ aromatises some anyways.

First cycle

500 Sust + 10mg Nolva ED
183-205. Kept 100% gains, no bloating.

[JohnDoe1234]

I went from 190 to 208. My bench went from 335 to 405. My squat which was never ever good went from 315 maybe for 1 to 405 for 3. Im not really sure what else but the truth is i am very happy with the results.

Well, what does everyone have to say to that?.

[jms462]

Well, what does everyone have to say to that?.

In all honesty their is not much to say but that the shit worked well for me. I worked out 1 body part a week. I worked out 6 days a week and i ate healthy and slept plenty. I have been of for 4 weeks now just finishing up my clomids and still get compliments about how big, cut, and hard i am.

[halifaxsteve]

Well, what does everyone have to say to that?.

i could eat 100mg winny ED for 20 wks and enjoy some muscular development...but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.