Pure Creatine Monohydrate???

[n0_Genetics]

creatine is best absorbed when taken with dextrose. personally i feel the added ingredients to designer creatines are part of the co. marketing scheme to attract amateurs to the sport, or merely just to make their product more appealing.

my qn is: whats the potency level of pure creatine + dextrose as compared to BS like celltech with exposed ALA?(pardon the emphasis, but i bet you'll do the same thing if you know the price that its going for here. no offense intended)

it is certainly MUCH more cost effective by using creatine + dextrose instead of buying designer creatines.
taking into consideration of the $$$ and efficiency/potency of pure creatine + Dextrose & designer creatines, which one would you prefer? is there really a significant difference between both of these?

[DBarcelo]

The whole idea to mix the creatine came about when people started to say they believed that creatine was absorbed by the muscles better when acompanied by an insulin spike. The things they add to the creatine are just there to cause an insulin spike for the most part. I guess you do run the risk of getting a lower quality creatine from a combination product, but you have to look at each product individually. Mixing creatine with dextrose was one of the first ideas out. They thought it was better than doing it with a simple sugar, but it still takes dextrose a little while to cause an insulin spike. I would say to eat a baked potatoe with the creatine, or orange juice with the creatine. Both of those things will cause more of an insulin spike than table sugar will and quicker too.

To answer the question, it's more economical to buy the cheapest creatine and then run it through a pill crusher (like pharmacists use) to micronize it yourself and then drink it with OJ. It's easier and more convenient to just get a combination product like CellTech and mix it with water.

To each his/her own.

[cb25]

The whole idea to mix the creatine came about when people started to say they believed that creatine was absorbed by the muscles better when acompanied by an insulin spike. The things they add to the creatine are just there to cause an insulin spike for the most part. I guess you do run the risk of getting a lower quality creatine from a combination product, but you have to look at each product individually. Mixing creatine with dextrose was one of the first ideas out. They thought it was better than doing it with a simple sugar, but it still takes dextrose a little while to cause an insulin spike. I would say to eat a baked potatoe with the creatine, or orange juice with the creatine. Both of those things will cause more of an insulin spike than table sugar will and quicker too.

To answer the question, it's more economical to buy the cheapest creatine and then run it through a pill crusher (like pharmacists use) to micronize it yourself and then drink it with OJ. It's easier and more convenient to just get a combination product like CellTech and mix it with water.

To each his/her own.

I don't have my nutrition textbooks handy, so i can't check the exact values so OJ or a baked potato may create a higher insulin spike than table sugar - but dextrose will cause a higher spike - as i understand it it has the highest GI rating in comparison.

Other than that - i totally agree with dbarcelo...

[abstrack]

If I am not mistaken simple sugars will cause a higher insulin spike than your complex carbs will, If I am not mistaken the GI value is lower. Maybe the spike will not be as long because of the stucture of a simple sugar. If a pot gave you a higer insulin spike why would we not just eat a potatoe in your post work out shake?

[DBarcelo]

Dextrose is slightly higher than a baked potato. Dextrose is a 96 and BP is a 94. OJ is only a 57, but all of these tests are in vetro. When a diabetic becomes hypo-glycemic, the fastest thing thing to increase their blood sugar is to drink some OJ. If there sugar level is good, OJ can kill a diabetic. That's why I say OJ may be the best thing.

As far as the simple sugars go, no, carbs give more of an insulin spike.

As far as why not just eat a baked potato, well, I'm sure we can look at a lot of things that body builders did thirty years ago, and we can say, why didn't they just do this that or the other thing. We take a lot of things for granted now a days that we just didn't know back then. The same thing will happen thirty years from now about what we do today.

[abstrack]

point taken
as far as a diabetic concerns are, the reason for the oj is because of the fast acting. If he/she were to eat a baked pot. their body would have to digest it, a pixy stick or oj would be fast acting cause of the simple sugars.

simple sugars are carbs if I am thinking right??? their insulin spike would not be a long as a when eating rice or a baked pot but this is due to the digestion process.

[longhornDr]

Nothing gives a faster insulin spike than dextrose....it's pure glucose...the only thing faster would be an IV dextrose solution.

[abstrack]

I agree, the spike is faster and higher but short in duration, but it should only be short in duration. Dextrose is only needed to quickly replenish glycogen after your workout.

[n0_Genetics]

im convinced that glucose gives a higher insulin spike and its ideal immed post workout if i'm gonna take my protein 20-30 mins after the creatine.

thanks for the great info peeps! certainly cleared several doubts of mine

[mfenske]

I read somewhere that taking creatine with OJ was a bad idea. Something to do with the acidity of the OJ messing with the creatine. Any thoughts? Mark

[cb25]

Nothing gives a faster insulin spike than dextrose....it's pure glucose...the only thing faster would be an IV dextrose solution.

This was exactly the point i was trying to make...

And mark, i think i read something similar - i know that one of my college professors was conducting research on vitmain C in OJ messing w/ calcium, so you could theorize that it may disrupt the creatine as well...

[DBarcelo]

1) Dextrose is not pure Glucose. At least not the glucose that your body makes.

2) Simple sugar is not a carbohydrate.

3) There are things that can give a faster insulin spike than dextrose.

4) Mixing creatine in OJ may not be the best thing in the world, but it's not going to really break down the creatine either. I would say drink a glass of OJ and then drink the creatine in a little water a couple minutes later. You shouldn't take any drug or suppliment with anything except for water. You don't know now the chemical makeup of the drink will react with the chemical makeup of the drug or suppliment.

5) Creatine is not calcium, and it's not absorbed the same way as calcium.

6) The course of this thread seems to be looking more at the Insulin Index and not the Glycemic Index. There is some corelation between the two indexes, but not all the time. Some foods with a low GI rating actually have a high II rating. And since we're looking at the Insulin spike generated, jelly beans have the highest Insulin Index that I know of off the top of my head, and that's around 160. And potatoes are around 120 II rating.

7) Read up on the Insulin Index since that's what people seem to be more concerned about here, and forget about the GI rating scale. It normally corelates to the insulin spike, but not always. (Example, some crackers have a GI rating of well over 100, but the II rating is just in the eighties, and some cookies have a GI rating in the seventies, but a II rating up near 100).

[hoss827]

I would take creatine in the morning, on an empty stomach with water or grapejuice, its absorbed alot faster into your bloodstream that way. As for the dextrose, I would take it pre, or post workout. But that's just me, experimenting is the best way to go bro.

[hoss827]

I gotta agree with Dennis, pure sugar is NOT a carbohydrate by any means.

[cb25]

1) Dextrose is not pure Glucose. At least not the glucose that your body makes.

2) Simple sugar is not a carbohydrate.

3) There are things that can give a faster insulin spike than dextrose.

4) Mixing creatine in OJ may not be the best thing in the world, but it's not going to really break down the creatine either. I would say drink a glass of OJ and then drink the creatine in a little water a couple minutes later. You shouldn't take any drug or suppliment with anything except for water. You don't know now the chemical makeup of the drink will react with the chemical makeup of the drug or suppliment.

5) Creatine is not calcium, and it's not absorbed the same way as calcium.

6) The course of this thread seems to be looking more at the Insulin Index and not the Glycemic Index. There is some corelation between the two indexes, but not all the time. Some foods with a low GI rating actually have a high II rating. And since we're looking at the Insulin spike generated, jelly beans have the highest Insulin Index that I know of off the top of my head, and that's around 160. And potatoes are around 120 II rating.

7) Read up on the Insulin Index since that's what people seem to be more concerned about here, and forget about the GI rating scale. It normally corelates to the insulin spike, but not always. (Example, some crackers have a GI rating of well over 100, but the II rating is just in the eighties, and some cookies have a GI rating in the seventies, but a II rating up near 100).

1) I've always understood them to be analogous compounds...i'll double check and correct myself. Most teachers that I've had (nutrition as well as biochem) have referred to them as synonyms
2)Carbohydrates are anything with the formula CH2O (glucose is C6H12O2). So to say simple sugar is not a carbohydrate...how do you explain that?
4)Exactly...that was the point i was trying to make. I didn't mean calcium and creatine would react the exact same, i was just making a point.
6)I'm actually pretty interested in this, as i'm not too familiar with it - so i should withold comment until i know what i'm talking about...my bad on this one.

[DBarcelo]

My mistake with the language. Simple sugar is the most basic form of carbohydrate, or simple carbohydrate compared to complex carbohydrate. Table suger can come from different things and may or may not be a carbohydrate depending on the source.

As far as dextrose is concerned, I'm not disagreeing about it being a good source to produce an insulin spike, I'm just saying that there are things out there that can cause more of an insulin spike than dextrose. My other point is that all of the tests that are done to come up with these numbers are done in a test tube and may not really be all that simular in the human body.

The thing about dextrose being synonymus with the glucose in the human body is a common idea, but if it were really the same, do you think your body would need to produce insulin? The body produces insulin in a large part to get the body to turn carbs and simple sugars into glucose and glycogen. I would think that there would be a much smaller insulin release needed if it were truly already glucose.

To be honest, I really don't have much of an interest in any of this stuff regarding carbs, insulin, and the like.

[longhornDr]

Dextrose is exactly the same as glucose in the body, it is nothing more than a synonym.

And to say that glucose is not a carbohydrate is ridiculous.

There is NOTHING that gives a higher insulin spike than dextrose, short of an insulin injection.

Nothing has a higher GI or II than glucose aka dextrose. It is after all what the "index" is indexed to.

[abstrack]

I cant believe this discussion is still going

DBarcelo- test arenot done in a test tube, you would have to do testings with people and by taking blood samples and then testing blood samples to come up with your index readings based on the foods we eat and the sugars we consume.

Please show me the studies or actual reliable refrences where you are comming up with your answers.

here is some insulin information for you
Insulin is a protein hormone and is the main factor in controlling a persons blood glucose level. It is produced by the islet cells of the pancreas when food is eaten or if the blood glucose level is high.
In between meals the islet cells produce low levels of insulin to maintain the balance between the amount of sugar the liver produces and the use of sugar by the muscles, brain,etc. When food is eaten and the levels of insulin rise it stops the liver releasing sugar into the bloodstream and helps the liver to take up sugar to store as glycogen.

Insulin also helps the muscle and fat cells to use glucose. The effects of insulin on the liver and other tissues tend to lower the blood glucose level.

Insulin works to help a muscle cell use glucose by creating an opening to allow the glucose to pass into the cell. Insulin also activates proteins (enzymes) in the cell which help the cell either to store glucose as glycogen or use it for energy. American

[cb25]

thank god...i thought i was losing my mind.

[DBarcelo]

I've been gone for a little while and I'm going through all of my old posts. So that's why I'm getting back to this one so late.

First of all, Dextrose and glucose are not the same, but they are treated pretty much the same in the body. Dextrose is from corn starch and is a metabolite of glucose. And glucose is basically a carbohydrate. And there are things out there that give higher insulin spikes than glucose and dextrose, such as jelly beans.

Also, all of the tests on insulin spikes are done in a test tube, even thought the samples do come from drawing blood. All of the tests I've read about don't seem to be all that good. The tests done to determine the Insulin Index and Glucose Index are done by taking blood samples in one or two hour intervals after ingestion. I've never seen one done in 15 min. intervals.

Everything that abstrack wrote is pretty much on the money except for the fact that glycogen isn't stored by cells, only used. The liver does store glycogen, but it has to be changed by something else in order for any of the other cells to store it.

As far as where I get my info, look into how they developed the Insulin Index or the Glucose Index, I would imagine that anyplace you can get the Index's will also show you how they developed it, so you know how to interpret and use the Index data.

[sorn]

I searched for "glucose" and "dextrose" in ChemFinder and NIST Chemistry WebBook and they're synonyms.

D-Glucose = Glucose = Dextrose = Blood sugar

Check out these links for yourself:

http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/...?molid=50-99-7
http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cg...ucose&Units=SI

You may notice that these are two different structures but it's still the same chemical.

[eacman65]

thanks for the link man appreciate it

[DBarcelo]

Some people do use the two synonymously, but like I said, dextrose is the metabolite of glucose. Glucose has to be metabolized in order to make dextrose. They are so closely related that it's not even worth arguing the point, but I'm a stickler for details, and they are actually two different things. One coming from corn starch directly and one after having been acted on by a metabolite.

[sorn]

I don't believe so... If that would be true then it shouldn't be so ****ed hard to get that information. I've tried searching for information about glucose, dextrose and that supposedly metabolite and stuff.... only thing I've come up with glucose = dextrose!

If you can point to a link I'll believe you