Why is the Atkins diet not good for BB's?

[BigRed54]

My brother is a natural BB. And he is VERY Anti-Steroid. So he thinks all of us BB's on the net are a bunch of dumb meat heads. He came up to me (Bragging) and told me that he lost 6lbs in 6 days on the Atkins so far. And I always thought Atkins was really another fade diet and it wouldn't work well for BB's. But i never really read alot on it though. So he tells me about for the next 2 wks all he can have is 20 grams of carbs a day/ed. I was like WHAT! I told him he better put a cheat meal in there once a week and he said no cause that'll slow down the fat process. I told him that he's losing muscle and fat. And that diet wasn't intended for BB's that lift heavy 5x a wk. I told him he's loseing muscle also and he told me, "Well i think Dr.Atkins knows more about diet than BB's seems how he's a doctor.

So will somone tell me exactly why BB's shouldn't use the Atkins diet? I know 1 thing, cause he'll lose muscle. Because of starving the muscle of carbs and never a carbs up day. But he doesn't think the diet is outdated. But i want a vet to tear the atkins apart. So i can tear my brother a new one! lol He pissed me off!

[usualsuspect]

I'm surprised we have to even go over this since your a mod at another board and your brother is a bodybuilder

[BigRed54]

Well I've never really read up on the Atkins diet. Diets are actually somthing i don't look into much. So even though i'm a Mod on other boards i'm not an expert on dieting. But thanks for your help usualsuspect Now is there anything more you can tell me other than what i already know?

[daman1]

Well I've never really read up on the Atkins diet. Diets are actually somthing i don't look into much. So even though i'm a Mod on other boards i'm not an expert on dieting. But thanks for your help usualsuspect Now is there anything more you can tell me other than what i already know?

I'm not too keen on the topic but I would assume it's because you need a good balance of nutrients and with the Atkins diet you take in an awful absorbant amount of fat and little to nothing of carbs. You will be losing a great deal of lean mass with the reduction of carbs as well. Also, you for certain types of gear you need certain types of eating plans (i.e.- For DNP you need an isocaloric diet). Just my thoughts though.

[SwoleCat]

daman1 is absolutely correct, and there are even more points as well, but he's covered the major ones. Even those who do ketonic diets with fat/protein over the normal kcal per day limit, and try to "bulk" on keto diets w/hyper calories, end up falling far behind those who utilize carbs/fat/pro. Keto diets are were originally made for children who suffer from forms of epileptic seizures. They then were thought to be "protein sparing" (lean mass) by burning only fat for fuel and not being able to touch lean mass because of it. Even if this were 100% true, as it isn't because u can still lose lean muscle on ketonic diets, they are not aimed at making a human being larger........not through hypo calories and not through burning fat for fuel that's for sure. Glycogen/carbs/sugars are what prepare damaged muscles for growth. When you take that away you take away the primer to the entire muscle building process.
Not to mention that it's pretty **** hard to lift the toilet seat while in ketosis, let alone any significant weight.

So perhaps keeping your lean mass on a ketonic diet is possible and you may be one who can do it, but gaining lean mass by doing this will leave you shortchanged........

~SC~

[BigRed54]

Thanks for the info guys! Thats what i needed to know....

[saboudian]

daman1 is absolutely correct, and there are even more points as well, but he's covered the major ones. Even those who do ketonic diets with fat/protein over the normal kcal per day limit, and try to "bulk" on keto diets w/hyper calories, end up falling far behind those who utilize carbs/fat/pro. Keto diets are were originally made for children who suffer from forms of epileptic seizures. They then were thought to be "protein sparing" (lean mass) by burning only fat for fuel and not being able to touch lean mass because of it. Even if this were 100% true, as it isn't because u can still lose lean muscle on ketonic diets, they are not aimed at making a human being larger........not through hypo calories and not through burning fat for fuel that's for sure. Glycogen/carbs/sugars are what prepare damaged muscles for growth. When you take that away you take away the primer to the entire muscle building process.
Not to mention that it's pretty **** hard to lift the toilet seat while in ketosis, let alone any significant weight.

So perhaps keeping your lean mass on a ketonic diet is possible and you may be one who can do it, but gaining lean mass by doing this will leave you shortchanged........

~SC~

Have you heard of the metabolic diet?

[daman1]

Have you heard of the metabolic diet?

It's ok. He does talk about how each person needs different amounts and types of nutrients. Which IMO, is something I already know. It seemed he was in favor of the low carb dieting though. All in all, he tells you information you basically already know with a few technical tidbits. For the $40 for the cost of the book, I'd rather go buy some chicken breasts.

[SwoleCat]

Yes I've heard of it.......

Not sure why you ask however.

~SC~

[bulkolly]

@SwoleCat
I'm very sorry, but even if you are a diet guru the things you say about ketonic diet are not true for everyone. Depending on your body type keto can be used successfully for bulking and cutting.

QUOTE SWOECAT:

daman1 is absolutely correct, and there are even more points as well, but he's covered the major ones. Even those who do ketonic diets with fat/protein over the normal kcal per day limit, and try to "bulk" on keto diets w/hyper calories, end up falling far behind those who utilize carbs/fat/pro.

>> I tried keto for bulking last year and gained as much as on a compareable 'normal' bulking diet, but gained less fat than by bulking with carbohydrates.

Keto diets are were originally made for children who suffer from forms of epileptic seizures. They then were thought to be "protein sparing" (lean mass) by burning only fat for fuel and not being able to touch lean mass because of it. Even if this were 100% true, as it isn't because u can still lose lean muscle on ketonic diets, they are not aimed at making a human being larger........not through hypo calories and not through burning fat for fuel that's for sure. Glycogen/carbs/sugars are what prepare damaged muscles for growth. When you take that away you take away the primer to the entire muscle building process.

>> If you do keto for weightloss right, it is possible to loose nearly only fat. When I comare my low fat diets with my keto diets I lost much more muscle when on a lowfat higher carb diet.


Not to mention that it's pretty **** hard to lift the toilet seat while in ketosis, let alone any significant weight.

>> Did you ever try a ketonic diet? I don't think so. After your body gets used to ketonic diet, you have as much energy for HIT style training and medium intensity cardi as on a 'normal' diet. When I increas calories during keto it is even possible to make good progess if it comes to weights lifted.


So perhaps keeping your lean mass on a ketonic diet is possible and you may be one who can do it, but gaining lean mass by doing this will leave you shortchanged........

[daman1]

@SwoleCat
I'm very sorry, but even if you are a diet guru the things you say about ketonic diet are not true for everyone. Depending on your body type keto can be used successfully for bulking and cutting.

QUOTE SWOECAT:

daman1 is absolutely correct, and there are even more points as well, but he's covered the major ones. Even those who do ketonic diets with fat/protein over the normal kcal per day limit, and try to "bulk" on keto diets w/hyper calories, end up falling far behind those who utilize carbs/fat/pro.

>> I tried keto for bulking last year and gained as much as on a compareable 'normal' bulking diet, but gained less fat than by bulking with carbohydrates.

Keto diets are were originally made for children who suffer from forms of epileptic seizures. They then were thought to be "protein sparing" (lean mass) by burning only fat for fuel and not being able to touch lean mass because of it. Even if this were 100% true, as it isn't because u can still lose lean muscle on ketonic diets, they are not aimed at making a human being larger........not through hypo calories and not through burning fat for fuel that's for sure. Glycogen/carbs/sugars are what prepare damaged muscles for growth. When you take that away you take away the primer to the entire muscle building process.

>> If you do keto for weightloss right, it is possible to loose nearly only fat. When I comare my low fat diets with my keto diets I lost much more muscle when on a lowfat higher carb diet.


Not to mention that it's pretty **** hard to lift the toilet seat while in ketosis, let alone any significant weight.

>> Did you ever try a ketonic diet? I don't think so. After your body gets used to ketonic diet, you have as much energy for HIT style training and medium intensity cardi as on a 'normal' diet. When I increas calories during keto it is even possible to make good progess if it comes to weights lifted.


So perhaps keeping your lean mass on a ketonic diet is possible and you may be one who can do it, but gaining lean mass by doing this will leave you shortchanged........

Just because it worked for one person (you) does not mean he is incorrect. He most likely stating a fact about a plethora of people, not just one.

[bulkolly]

1. swolecats thread sounded like no one could make gains or loose fat without muscle on the Atkins diet. An if you rearead my post, I only said, that his statement is not true for EVERYONE.

2. It is not "just me" who has success with Atkins. I personally know at least 3 other people having similar success. Yes, Atktins is not for everyone and not even for the majority, but there are enough people doing Atkins with great success in bodybuilding.

[Elliot]

Atikins/keto like diets are used to lose excessive weight meaning both fat and muscle. the reason why most people dont care is that they just dont want to be "hugely overweight" so if they get down to a 32 waist they belive they have achived thier goals. i mean dont get me wrong loosing weight in any form can be horrid. But for us to loosed 5-10 lbs of muscle thought inproper dieting is like wasting 3-4 months for absolutley no reason.. also not to have you mestiken you always loose muscle while cutting, only thing is that if you diet properly it would be much less then if you were to do a atkins/keto diet...

[bulkolly]

you always loose muscle while cutting, only thing is that if you diet properly it would be much less then if you were to do a atkins/keto diet...

That is where you are wrong. The Atkins diet can be used to loose weight with minimal muscle loss. Ketosis has an anticatabolic effect.
I tried this out several times and on Atkins I nearly kept all muscle while on a moderate carbohydrate diet (with the same amount of calories) I lost much more lean mass.
You can even use Atkins to bulk, if you upp the calories.

[usualsuspect]

That is where you are wrong. The Atkins diet can be used to loose weight with minimal muscle loss. Ketosis has an anticatabolic effect.
I tried this out several times and on Atkins I nearly kept all muscle while on a moderate carbohydrate diet (with the same amount of calories) I lost much more lean mass.
You can even use Atkins to bulk, if you upp the calories.

Are we missing something here

Atkins is a no carb diet...moderate carb diet is NOT Atkins.

And bulking on Atkins is like cutting on McDonald's...while it could be done, not many choose to do so because there are too many better options that exist.

[bulkolly]

@usualsuspect : you wrote:

"Are we missing something here

Atkins is a no carb diet...moderate carb diet is NOT Atkins."


If you reread my post, i compared the effects of an Atkins Diet (no carbs) with the effect of a moderate carbohydrate diet on muscle loss. I wanted to express, that I lost much more muscle with the traditional diet style.

You also wrote

"And bulking on Atkins is like cutting on McDonald's...while it could be done, not many choose to do so because there are too many better options that exist."

This is definitely true for most, but not for all. For those like me, who put on fat very easily a keto bulk is better. During a Keto bulk i gained as much lean mass as on a traditional bulking diet but gained much less fat on the keto bulk. And during my keto bulk calorie intake was higher than on traditional bulking.

[SwoleCat]

K bro, show up outta no-where and start an argument.

Way to go!

Your responses to my quotes you attempted to quote are all non-sequitors........have nothing to do w/what I have stated.

Show us what you look like, then I'll consider what you've had to say, if I can find the context.

Other than that, you sound to me like every other person who just talks here about "I" do this, "I" do that.......you may be able to sh*t and not wipe, but most won't!

I didn't say the rules applied to EVERYONE, however if one is looking for the BEST chance at APPEARING to be a bodybuilder, ATKINS IS NOT THE WAY TO GO. You suggesting it's a viable alternative, is @$$inine.

You can keep your "it's diff for everyone", blah blah, well no sh*t...........we all know that there is never 1 RULE......however there is a majority. To answer your question, yes I've tried a ketonic diet..........hence the creation of my own customized programs that are 100's of times more successful. Ask how many @ my site (clients and others) are FORMER Atkins users or keto users.............now ask them how they feel now that they have found a more productive way........

Yeah, real life experience and voices, not just some "yada yada" like you've done. I'm talking 100's of voices and testimonials, not just one.

Again, show us your sculpted/chiseled self utilizing Atkins for all your bulking and cutting, no carbs ever at all. I wanna see it.

As well, challenging my "Diet Guru" title and mockingly doing so won't get you far on this board "brother". When your responses have literally nothing to do w/what was previously written it makes one not really want to respond to the thread, and focus attention on others who need help.

This ain't the place.

~SC~

[bulkolly]

@SwoleCat

I wrote:

"I'm very sorry, but even if you are a diet guru the things you say about ketonic diet are not true for everyone. Depending on your body type keto can be used successfully for bulking and cutting."

Why do you feel offended?

you said:

"As well, challenging my "Diet Guru" title and mockingly doing so won't get you far on this board "brother"."

where did i challenge your diet guru title. I used the title diet guru out of respect for you. The only thing I wanted to say ist, that Keto works fine for me and others I know.

you wrote:
"Yeah, real life experience and voices, not just some "yada yada" like you've done. "

Sorry, but my experiences are real life experiences, too.

I never ment to offend anybody, but your statemens are even more offending, trying to let me look like some idiot who does not know, what he talks about.

You have your experiences, I have mine and those of several friends who use keto, too.. Why can't it be possible, that we discuss them here without sarcastic statements like "Other than that, you sound to me like every other person who just talks......."? I for my part am always thankful if I get in touch with different experiences even if they are contradictory to my believes.

Or is it a board rule, that it is forbidden to say anything that differs from a gurus view? I don't think so.

So let's settle this dispute and just accept the fact, that we have different ways of dieting/bulking, what work best for us and that there is no ultimate truth even though I must admit, that keto is only optimal for a minority, but for these it is better than a more carb diet.

[SwoleCat]

Yes, I agree with what you said as a summary, indeed!

You have to understand that as of late, we've had quite a few "jerks" for lack of a better word come on here, show their face for about 1 day, cause all sorts of problems, and never be seen again. So, I apologize at my mis-understanding of your post, you have to understand my judgement has been tainted the last few days. That is where the "mockery" issue arose, as those types of situations have occurred a bit as of late.

All good here, thanks for the post!

~SC~

[Pheedno]

I've actually heard that keto diets are muscle sparing as the complete depletion of carbs inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3. Havn't done much reading on it as I'll never go Keto

A lousy way to live if you ask me. I aint giving up my pasta and potatoes at din din time

[bulkolly]

@ Swolecat

Apology accepted. All in all it seemed to be just a big misunderstanding. By the way, I'm not new on this board, but mainly read the threads for information purposes without posting too much. I usually post at a German board, where keto and Atkins is a heavily discussed topic.

By the way, what is the optimal fat loss, muscle sparing diet in your opinion?


in sports

Bulkolly

[SwoleCat]

I'd have an extremely biased answer for that question.

However, I can assure you it's with VERY good reason.

You'll hear more about it in the future, that's for sure.

~SC~

[20_inch_bicep]

swolecat, you're a worthless idiot.

[SwoleCat]

You'll be leaving us quite soon newbie!

Thanks for your jealousy and hatred, I can tell you're highly envious!



~SC~

[tatertoos]

Take it easy on the newbie. His ignorant statement got me to read the whole long azz thread. Very informative indeed!!!!!

[bulkolly]

@Swolecat

you wrote

I'd have an extremely biased answer for that question.

However, I can assure you it's with VERY good reason.

You'll hear more about it in the future, that's for sure.



I'll be looking foreward to hearing more.

[SwoleCat]

I was referring to the customized shredding program that I employ w/my clientele. That's why I would be biased w/an answer, but with good reason because of the success rate of the program and the expedience that accompanies it.

Of course, the PERSON who employs the methodologies is ultimately responsible to make it work. It's almost magical, yes, but he/she has to be the magician and make it happen.



~SC~

[saboudian]

Another arguement that ends with Swole "I have the solution, but it costs money".

[bigsd67]

Another arguement that ends with Swole "I have the solution, but it costs money".

Im gonna do what i can to defend all PT's and nutritionists out there so don't think I'm kissing Swole's @$$.....however you have to realize that if you go to some gym and get a trainer, or an apex diet you end up paying for the diet and the gym...if you do weight watchers, jenny craig, or any other $hit @$$ commecialized diet you pay for it...if you do atkins or south beach you buy the countless books...my buddy did a bodybuilding comp and payed his trainer $200 to get him down to 2% fat....the bottom line is, you can try your own diets and most likely with success...but a majority of the ones available you pay for in some way. point being, dont knock anyone for being a business man/woman as well as a trainer, nutrional advisor and a stand up guy. Swole has given much advice and one can construct a decent diet without using his program, however if you are really looking to be successful from day one to day 100000000000 and you dont want to figure out how to tweak your own diet regularly then the money is worth it, cuz your gonna pay eventually anyway.

I'm not trying to offend you by the way, im just stating my opinion about anyone that pays a trainer for advice.

[SwoleCat]

Another arguement that ends with Swole "I have the solution, but it costs money".

Argument? Where? What thread are you reading? The "argument" was not an argument, it was an immature kid who began to flame people in the thread, that was the only "argument". However, you seem to have begun yet another one w/your idiotic opinionated outburst.

I expressed an opinion about my programs. It's no secret that I have my own business, nor that I have two very successful programs. There have been about 7 people here alone who have been under my tutelage. I didn't make a thread and start talking/advertising my services, someone asked my opinion and I gave it. You don't like the response, though sh*t don't read it and move to the next thread.

I've given MORE than ample free advice here, and never push my programs upon anyone. I've plenty of clientele I assure you. Bigsd67 is correct in that I help out here 24/7 and critique/change/advise on other's diet layouts, but if one wishes to have ALL guesswork taken out, then he/she can come see me. If not, no biggie, but ultimately it's up to the person to decide what he/she wants to do.

I look forward to seeing some actual dietary advice/contributions from you on this forum. Non-sequitors don't really help the people out here.

~SC~

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

Bottom line is that you have to do it yourself to find out if it works. Everyone's looking for a quick fix, it's just finding what works for you and what you have the discipline to do. Atkins sounds easy enough, but IMO it's one of the hardest things to do.

And yes, it can be used in a bodybuilding diet, not in a powerlifting or for athletic purposes. It's strictly aesthetic.

[bulkolly]

@Swolecat

whom do you refer to as immature kid by saying:

The "argument" was not an argument, it was an immature kid who began to flame people in the thread, that was the only "argument".

[SwoleCat]

No, I was NOT referring to Saboudian.......I was telling Saboudian about "bigolbiceps" who had posts in here that were deleted because they were demeaning and hateful.

Remember, if you don't contribute here in a postive manner and you tear people down w/out having anything to offer this location, you can/will get suspended.

It's an adult board, not a playground.

~SC~

[bulkolly]

@SwoleCat

as long as you did not refer to me and my Atkins post ....

[SwoleCat]

No, your post just generated the b.s., but in and of itself it was b.s. free.

But man, the way you just phrased that sounds like a threat. I.E. "Good thing you weren't talking about me SC, or else................"

Relax partna!

~SC~

[usualsuspect]

Lol Wow you guys are starting to sound like a bunch of menstrauting chicks.

[SwoleCat]

Dodge the blood, estrogen is high in this thread.

~SC~

[temperoath]

I think the reason people lose muscle on the Atkins diet is because when on a low carb diet, the muscle uses its glucose and its not effectively replenished. IMO the Atkins diet is geared toward the average person, not the athlete or bodybuilder. Sure, it works for some fat guy, who's main concern is losing fat, and doesn't worry too much about muscle. But those of us who work for what we've got, hate to see it go! When I body builder is on the Atkins diet, he uses all the muscle's glucose, but doesn't replenish it, so the muscle loses protein, mass, and strength. I think a carb up should be done at the end of a week of lifting, because if you do it correctly, the carbs you'll eat will be used to supercompensate the muscles with glucose, and not your liver/fat cells. This minimizes muscle loss, but may not stop it all together. Read Dan Duchaine's book! It contains alot of usefull logical info like this!

[GREENMACHINE]

We had a programme on the BBC that looked at the history of the atkins diet and the controversy that surrounded it. Eat as much protien and fat as you like and still lose weight was the diets selling point. The conventional medical community was up in arms over this of course. No real effort was made to dissprove the theory however for several years. People lost weight on the diet however and kept it off. The controversy was escalating as the weeks and months went by and finally a group of scientists took on the task of running diet side by dide with the traditional lo- cal diet. This was a done deal the people on the atkins diet would lose less weight or none at all. They were certain that the volunteers in the atkins group would have elevated cholesterol at the end of the trial period.

This didn't materialise. People in the atkins diet lose more weight and there was a ten-fold decrease in cholesterol, compared with the lo-cal group. This baffled scientists where was the extra energy going. Atkins answer was ketosis. Wrong !!! (Back to this later) Next a group of scientist latched onto the idea of high fat being a signal to stop eating. this group made up two groups of volunteers and made the same meal for both. The second group had their food laced with fat. This group ate more.The scientist got it wrong again. So the ketosis idea was looked at. Two identical brother were each put on a diffrent diet. (1 atkins:1 lo-cal) The level of ketones was measure before and after the eperiment. Before both were equal. Afterwards the total ketone passed in the entire urine specemin were i kcal higher in the lo-cal volunteer.

More confusion. It took the Danes to solve this one. They had a private supermarket and made up two groups of volunteers. Instead of barcode the foods were given nutritional labels. The groups were 1 lo-cal group, and 1 atkins group. Both were ginven free acess to the foods in their group. i.e take as much as you want. The atkins group lost more weight because they consumed less calories. Mystery solved protien give a stronger signal in terms of feeling full, than carbs or fat.

Probobaly not ideal for expereince body buillders who never let their fat above 12-15% even during bulking except maybe on a rest week.

Good for sedate joe public trying to lose weight in the short term( no long term studies on atkins yet)

Good if you are more blobby builder than bodybuilder and cutting

If trying to maintain weight protien needs to high to sustain growth,fat should be clean, efa etc,no solid fats, additional calories above normal r.d.a should come from clean carbs.

Sorry for dragging this out.
Hope someone finds it useful.

[Umberto]

Preface :
I dont want to start a big argument. I am by no means an expert in the intricate nutrient and hormonal pathways our bodies utilize. I do know a little though, being a senior in Biological Engineering. I will attempt to simplify some of the processes that happen in a pre and post ketogenic state.
BTW
(Bulking on a ketogenic diet IMO would be a halfhazard way of bulking. I believe not taking advantage of the high-insulin induced spike caused by carbohydrates is wasteful. Also on an above maintnance diet carbs are muscle sparing and dietary protien sparing as well as providing your brain with glucose on which it runs more efficintly that keton bodies.)

Ketogenic diets do appear, after research, to be more muscle sparring that regular calorie reduced diet, as well as breaking down more adipose tissue (fat). Their are 2 distinct reasons for this.

1. On a regular calorie reduced diet your body will use blood glucose (all carbs broken down to this in body) as fuel. When this runs out it will break down glycogen in the liver for more blood glucose. When this runs out it will break down protien (muscle protien) as well as fats for energy. Protien is converted to glucose and enters glycolysis to eventually produce ATP(energy) though not efficiently at all. Fats are converted to AcCOA and enter into the citric acid cycle to make energy. FATS CANNOT BE CONVERETED TO GLUCOSE. ONLY CARBS AND PROTIEN ARE. SO regular calorie reduced dieting causes fat and muscle loss.
NOW in ketosis. You have no large amount of glucose present in your body but you have a lot more dietary fat. When there is little or no glucose your body will use fats and introduce them inefficiently into the CAC. Their will be byproducts called ketone bodies. Your body will eventually "learn" to run off of these ketone bodies only (even your brain). Once in ketosis you will only use fats for fuel (KETONE BODIES) BECAUSE FAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET KETONE BODIES AND PROTIEN CANT BE BROKEN DOWN INTO KETONE BODIES. LIKE THEY CAN BE WHEN YOUR BODY IS USING GLUCOSE FOR ENERGY. KETOSIS IS ANTICATABOLIC TO BODY PROTIEN.

2. Ketosis causes more rapid fat loss. Excess ketone bodies in your blood cause ketoacidosis. Which is a raise acidity level in blood. Your body tries to correct this imbalance by washing out your blood (bascically you take more water into your blood and piss it out). SO you are actually pissing out extra calories (KETONE BODIES). Not in excess but some.