Aikido= crap

[WARMachine]

Ok guys, after getting WAY off topic and getting to the point of almost highjacking another guys thread,(which had nothing to do with Aikido) ive decided to start a thread that properly discusses the traditional martial art Aikido. Yes i know Aikido is not an art with a large practitioner rate, but nonetheless the few that do represent the art swear by it as a effective martial art.(at least in my encounters with them) The point of this thread is to mainly dispel that belief(for me), or at the very least engage in a intelligent discussion with those who participate in formal studies of the art.

My main criticism of aikido is that it suffers from a lack of realism in overall training and competition. Utterly worthless in any type of fight, professional or not, my issue is that people claim the art in terms of legit practical martial arts. I've had many heated arguements with practioners of Aikido about this. The attacks initiated are sloppy, and little more than caricatures of an attack. As well as weak attacks cause a conditioned response and result in underdevelopment of the strength and conditioning needed for the safe and effective practice of both partners. Basically, it just lacks all realism and practicality in modern fighting technique.

Any thought? arguements? disagree?

please also list of type and length of training related to Martial Arts.

Myself: AM MMA fighter record 6-3, 8 years of muay thai(professional record of 7-1), 4 years of grecco-roman wrestling, and a lifetime of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu(BB)...

[CSAR]

I've trained in Yoshinkan Aikido for 5 years and graduated from the Tokyo Riot Police/International Instructors Course. Also trained in boxing (4 years), Kyokushin Karate (5 years), & freestyle wrestling (12 years, elementary, Jr. High & High school). Also Semper Fu (4 years) as a Navy corpsman attached to a Marine Recon platoon.

I'm not going to argue the value of aikido in street fighting, MMA, or as a competitive sport (which it isn't). But I'll share my 2 cents with you.

1. Anyone who says that a single martial art, whether it be aikido or not, is the end all-be all of fighting is an idiot. Hence, the development of fighting into MIXED Martial Arts. A lot of aikido (especially in demonstrations) looks fake because the "attackers" are using predetermined methods of attacking. Also, they appear to be easily thrown/flipped/controlled, but this is because of how they are taught to lessen the impact of a technique (i.e., it hurts less to do a proper breakfall than land on your ass or head).
2. Aikido is a traditional Japanese martial art, with it's roots in Daito Ryu Jujutsu. The techniques are, for the most part, not going to be very useful in a modern MMA match. As I stated, it is a traditional martial art and has not evolved from its inception centuries ago. But if you ever happen to time travel back to the 13th century, it may come in handy against katana wielding samurai.
3. I have used aikido in Japan in real street fights twice and kicked ass. Why? a) I'm 6', 210 lb Cracker and my assailants were 5'5", 140 lb Japs (I'm a bully and politically incorrect, what can I say?), b) They thought they were 10' tall, bulletproof, and racially superior, c) they were 100% reckless (which only aided my use of aikido), and d) they made the mistake of grabbing my shirt and/or charging me, which you either can't do in MMA or if you try will most likely result in getting KTFO.
4. Most aikido nuts are...nuts. As are most karate nuts, kung fu nuts, taekwondo nuts, etc., etc. I've heard the same things you've stated from all sorts of martial arts characters.
5. I'm not sure how you can have a tournament/competition within aikido, because it isn't a sport. The one with the least number of broken bones wins?
6. A lot of aikido wrist, elbow, & shoulder locks are useful for restraining and controlling an assailant (i.e., police work, CQC, bar bouncing, etc.).
7. While I wouldn't consider aikido to be a particularly effective martial art for most modern fighting situations, there are several practitioners that I would describe as "true aikidoka" and wouldn't want to fight: Tsutomu Chida Sensei in Japan, Robert Mustard Sensei in Canada, Jacques Payet Sensei in Japan, Gadi Shorr Sensei in Israel/England, David Reubens Sensei in London, and Darren Friend Sensei in Sydney. I have trained with Chida Sensei, Shorr Sensei (who also incorporates other martial arts), Payet Sensei, and Friend Sensei during my time at the Hombu dojo in Tokyo.
8. While I can't say typical aikido training is particularly hard or demanding (there's a lot of fat fvcks), senshusei training can be grueling (e.g., 90 minutes of hajime geiko, or non-stop training in 35 C heat with no rest/water breaks, everyone slipping/falling in their own sweat, blood, snot, etc.).
9. Don't worry about it. Everyone thinks their martial art is the best. However, I have yet to see a martial art defeat Glock, Sig Sauer, HK, Colt, Smith & Wesson, etc.
10. Aikido can be a fun and challenging art to study. Learning complicated techniques and trying to perfect them (regardless of the art, martial or otherwise) can be very rewarding.

Let me refer you to 2 fair (not great) videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ztAJYPrWkk
0:14 - 0:50 Darren Friend Sensei showing freestyle aikido techniques against shoumen uchi (front chopping) strikes. His uke (attacker), Laurance Mar Sensei gets slammed a few times, but is really good at ukemi (breakfalls). You don't see many MMA bouts where a guy comes running at you chopping at your forehead, but such attacks were common in 11th century Japan.
0:50 - 1:33 Sonoda Sensei showing freestyle kneeling aikido techniques against ryote mochi (two wrist) grabbing attacks. His uke is attempting to prevent him from drawing his katana, which is a traditional type of attack uncommon to the Octagon. I appreciate the beauty of his technique, especially while kneeling, rather than trying to view it as realistic. However, his spinning elbow to the back of the head at 1:25 was pretty real (it made a loud "thwock" sound when it connected to the other guy's head).
Chida Sensei's aikido demonstration was pretty effortless, but that's what aikido strives to be.
The two Senshusei demonstrations at the end are crap, but those guys were still in the course and relatively new to aikido. They sat in seiza for 30 minutes prior to their test, demonstrated random techniques for the next 30 minutes, each taught one technique for 5 minutes, and then had to demonstrate free style techniques against a specific attack. It's neither easy nor painless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJiWGKFAlp4
A decent demonstration. They're demonstrating techniques, so it looks pretty, for the most part.
1:17 Juji nage (crossed arm throw?) hurts like a bitch.
2:21 That poor little Japanese guy got slammed by the Yank. When he hit the tatami, it was a toss up which was louder, his head smacking the floor or his "Ooooof!"
2:25 Pretty good head control against a haymaker.
2:53 Really good ude garame (wrist/elbow lock throw).
3:05 Brutal hijiate kokkyunage (rolling elbow throw). It really hurts if you don't roll out of it early enough.
3:11 That was probably the most real throw in aikido that I've ever seen. Again, he is demonstrating a free style technique against a predetermined attack (katate mochi, or single wrist grab), but the effect was pretty cool.

[NEMESIS RR]

I will not go on with my experience other than on numerous ocasions I have fought pro mma guys. I also didn't think akido was much. I then rolled (BJJ) with an Akido practitioner. I was having my way with him and then he tapped me. Turned my wrist, pushed down on my hand, and picked up my elbow (modified Kimura).

[WARMachine]

CSAR let me just say that was a very well thought out response and i appreciate your intellect and knowledge on this topic.
That being said, "9. Don't worry about it. Everyone thinks their martial art is the best. However, I have yet to see a martial art defeat Glock, Sig Sauer, HK, Colt, Smith & Wesson, etc." is an excellent point, and im glad you brought it up. No matter what people say about their respective martial arts, they can beat the bullet. HAHA!

But just to clarify, "1. Anyone who says that a single martial art, whether it be aikido or not, is the end all-be all of fighting is an idiot. Hence, the development of fighting into MIXED Martial Arts." truer words were never spoken, my intention was not to state that anyone particular martial art is superior to all others, nothing could be further from the truth(i mean, im not Rickson, i understand the importance of cross-training). I realize you understood, but i just felt the need to clarify.

thanks for the post bro!

[CSAR]

war4BTT

I totally agree with everything you've said. MMA has taken fighting to a whole different level and I think has pretty much demonstrated the fallacy of relying on one style of fighting. The guys I see fighting today are proof that being well-rounded in several disciplines (Muy Thai, BJJ, wrestling, etc.) is a necessity.

I saw an interview with Matt Hughes before his fight with Thiago Alves and he said that he was going back to the "original Matt Hughes" and "doing what worked in the past." What a moron (and I'm actually a fan of the guy). Other fighters seem to be exploiting his reliance on the take-down/GNP and making him pay for it. He's regressing when he should be evolving.

I've had several encounters with guys who rave about aikido and they're usually the ones with the worst technique/form. More often than not, they're also the ones who've never actually been in a real fight. They're embarrassing. I gave up trying to reason with such people long ago. Now I just let them have their say and reply, "Well alrighty then. Take care and good luck with that." It's frightening how many people (especially dorks) take a few lessons and act like they're gonna dominate. I call it the Karate Kid Syndrome.

[roid_rage]

csar... man you that was the best and most complete answer about this issue I've seen in a long time.... What do you think about Krav Maga?

[CSAR]

Well, Krav Maga is not much different from a lot of the hand-to-hand fighting instruction I received in the military. However, IMO neither it nor other so-called "combat fighting systems" would be suitable for MMA fighting or street fighting - not because it wouldn't be effective, but because the point of Krav Maga is to go on the offensive, incapacitate/kill, and escape as fast as possible. There is no emphasis on scoring points, submissions, or KO's. Plus, the things that would be unacceptable in MMA (headbutts, groin attacks, eye gouging, biting, etc.) are all good in Krav Maga (could also see some jail time in a real-world situation). However, I think Krav Maga would be excellent training for anyone, especially because it emphasizes sound fighting principles (straight punches and kicks, knees and elbows, aggression, and speed of violence). It'd be a good workout too 'cause it's full on.

The knife and gun defense stuff is pretty dicey though, regardless of the fighting discipline. I have played around with both in training and 9 times out of 10, you're either gonna get shot or cut.

IMO, a lot of people have distorted views of "combat fighting". If you're fighting an enemy in hand-to-hand combat, then something has gone terribly wrong. In a military setting, teamwork, marksmanship/basic weapon handling, and weapon care are more essential to survivability than any hand-to-hand skills.

Anyhow, that's just my 2 cents.

[CSAR]

Another thing about aikido, there's a big difference between Aiki Kai Aikido and Yoshinkan Aikido, as well as a big difference between aikido taught/practiced worldwide versus that in Japan. Unfortunately, I would venture to estimate that 95% of the aikido people see is absolute crap. If you have the chance to experience what I call "REAL" aikido, it is truly amazing. Granted, they are techniques, but with someone who actually knows what they're doing (footwork, using the power of the hips, taking the attacker's balance, neutralizing an attack at it's weakest point, etc., etc.) can be useful in other applications.

When my wife came back from working in NZ for a year, she brought home a tape of an aikido demonstration in Auckland. Those dudes made Steven Seagal look skinny by comparison and their aikido was absolute rubbish. I've never laughed at or been so embarrassed for someone in my whole life.

However, if I were living outside of Japan and wanted to see some "REAL" aikido, I would seek out a Yoshinkan dojo and especially someone who has been through the Riot Police/Instructor's course. If I could go and train anywhere, I'd train with the following guys:
1. Robert Mustard in BC, Canada
2. Darren Friend in Sydney, Australia
3. Gadi Shorr, Israel/London
4. Dave Reubens, London
5. Joe Thambu & Jon Marshall, Melbourne
6. Geordan Reynolds, Thailand
7. Malcolm Crawford, UK

Again, IMO, there is indeed a lot of crap aikido. It has its uses, but only in very specific circumstances. It can be a lot of fun and I've enjoyed several "WTF just happened?" moments with instructors like Darren Friend and Gadi Shorr. "REAL" aikido is like Bigfoot - often claimed, rarely experienced.

[mmasupplements]

My 2 cents
I have been doing BJJ/boxing/Muay thai for 7 years now
my main training partner in BJJ is a BJJ blackbelt and has competed in the worlds and placed (masters division)
he is also a black belt in aikido he has been doing aikido for 15 plus years
he also was a HS champion wrestler

mine and his experiences aikido are as such
while aikido may have been effective for what it was originally used for, the concept of using their energy against them works with either
1) willing participant
2) nonathletic untrained opponent

in the demonstrations you showed the participants literally throw themselves with the technique, making it look wonderful, and effective. the moment someone works with angles and uses effective technique all aikido goes straight out the window.
it is a beautiful art and shouldnt be lost, i think it should stay directly linked with Kendo though, where it was designed to be effective. they took techniques that work when someone is attempting to hold on to a long, incredibly effective, combat weapon. they are not designed in any way for hand to hand combat, and are somewhat effective with knives. aikido is based around the concept that the person wants to hold on to the weapon, not counter the aikido practitioners attack, or use an effective hand to hand combat attack.

Krav maga
I have no clue what krav maga is like in israel. i have trained a blue belt qualified instructor to fight MMA(and man he crushed his opponents, INCREDIBLY athletic guy). it took a lot of retraining to make him effective against a serious opponent. krav may have started out with a really strong base the further it got away from soldiers, i assume, the less effective it became. Krav maga doesnt have what makes fighters and soldiers effective in combat. practicing frequently against someone who REALLY wants to put the hurt on them. practicing with someone who wants to put the hurt on you refines, and reiterates what is effective, and eliminates what is not. what i have seen with krav is these very intelligent instructors have built bad habits because they havent had anyone trying to hurt them, eliminating those habits. i am a blue belt in krav maga, i teach boxing, and ground at a krav school, so the more i have a belt the easier it is for the owners to give me legitimacy while teaching. every person who comes to my classes has much more effective combat habits than even much more trained high level krav people, because in my classes they spar with me and other boxers and fighters i bring in to test them.

in krav's defense
if there were anyone one program that would give my g/f, and my daughter the best chance in the shortest period of time, it would be the krav techniques. my g/f and my daughter flat out refuse to spar, so krav is best i can get.

[roid_rage]

My 2 cents
I have been doing BJJ/boxing/Muay thai for 7 years now
my main training partner in BJJ is a BJJ blackbelt and has competed in the worlds and placed (masters division)
he is also a black belt in aikido he has been doing aikido for 15 plus years
he also was a HS champion wrestler

mine and his experiences aikido are as such
while aikido may have been effective for what it was originally used for, the concept of using their energy against them works with either
1) willing participant
2) nonathletic untrained opponent

in the demonstrations you showed the participants literally throw themselves with the technique, making it look wonderful, and effective. the moment someone works with angles and uses effective technique all aikido goes straight out the window.
it is a beautiful art and shouldnt be lost, i think it should stay directly linked with Kendo though, where it was designed to be effective. they took techniques that work when someone is attempting to hold on to a long, incredibly effective, combat weapon. they are not designed in any way for hand to hand combat, and are somewhat effective with knives. aikido is based around the concept that the person wants to hold on to the weapon, not counter the aikido practitioners attack, or use an effective hand to hand combat attack.

Krav maga
I have no clue what krav maga is like in israel. i have trained a blue belt qualified instructor to fight MMA(and man he crushed his opponents, INCREDIBLY athletic guy). it took a lot of retraining to make him effective against a serious opponent. krav may have started out with a really strong base the further it got away from soldiers, i assume, the less effective it became. Krav maga doesnt have what makes fighters and soldiers effective in combat. practicing frequently against someone who REALLY wants to put the hurt on them. practicing with someone who wants to put the hurt on you refines, and reiterates what is effective, and eliminates what is not. what i have seen with krav is these very intelligent instructors have built bad habits because they havent had anyone trying to hurt them, eliminating those habits. i am a blue belt in krav maga, i teach boxing, and ground at a krav school, so the more i have a belt the easier it is for the owners to give me legitimacy while teaching. every person who comes to my classes has much more effective combat habits than even much more trained high level krav people, because in my classes they spar with me and other boxers and fighters i bring in to test them.

in krav's defense
if there were anyone one program that would give my g/f, and my daughter the best chance in the shortest period of time, it would be the krav techniques. my g/f and my daughter flat out refuse to spar, so krav is best i can get.

Holly shit... that's exactly how I see Aikido and Krav maga, I think that every style could work, if they sparr their ass of in the gym, if there is no contac, yo only train techniques, man, it's all worthless.. once the real fight starts, and you dont really know where the acttack is going to come, all the years and years of techniques training are just useless... And there is a reason you dont see those techniques apply in real combat situations, or at least at practice, because simple it is imposible to do it.... As far as I can see, it doenst really matter what style you practice, if it is a stand up martial art, once the fight starts, it will probably end up with punching and kicking around, and if both guys are in the same out fit, you will not be able to say.. OHHH THIS GUY IS KRAV MAGA, THIS GUY IS TKD, THIS GUY IS KARATE, THIS GUY IS SAVATE, muay thai probably yes, cause they'll kick the **** out of your legs...

What I'm saying is, fancy techniques dont work... yes you can apply some kind of hold or fancy technique in some one that is not prepared or you take by sorprise... but when the fight is settle... forguet about all that bull shit... 'cause you probably will get KTFO...

By the way CSAR... you are so dam right about the knife stuff... And I think is pretty ****e up that they make you belive in the dojos, gyms or what ever that you are actually cabaple of dissarm someone and dont get hurt.. as you say, you may, but out of 10 times, 9 you will get hurt...

[mmasupplements]

whats funny is if you watch the karate people who have competed in high level competition... for example george the g effin man st pierre.. he was a karate guy.. his technique is boxing, and muay thai and wrestling and BJJ..... because those are the sports born from actually competing and hitting each other. you cant learn to swim without getting in the water.. and the more you get in the water the more you will start to swim like the professionals

[mmasupplements]

oh wait one last thing to csar... im sorry but high level sensei's in traditional martial arts are usually worthless.. they are so inundated with what they teach they can never accept what is effective and what is ineffective in what they learned (especially since no one has ever hit them in their face real nice)

[WARMachine]

Again CSAR great posts... The Krav Maga one in particular was worth a read...

The main problem with Krav Maga is excactly what you stated, In Krav Maga, there are no hard-and-fast rules, and no distinction in training for men and women. Most importantly it is NOT a sport, and there are no competitions, though there are some organizations that recognise progress efficiency through training with rank belts and different levels. Krav Maga generally assumes that the individual attacking is doing so in order to cause physical harm (i.e. Rape, mugging, murder.. etc.); therefore, as a response, the attacks and defenses are intended only for use in potentially lethal threat situations with the goal being to neutralize and escape their attacker as quickly and safely as possible.

Most attacks are aimed at crippling vulnerable body parts, this includes groin and eye strikes, headbutts, and other efficient and potentially brutal attacks,(those of which are not legal in most modern martial arts competition) improvised use of any objects available, and maximizing personal safety in a fight, are emphasized. However, it must be stressed that instructors can and do demonstrate how to moderate the techniques to fit the circumstances. While no limits are placed on techniques to be used in life-threatening situations, the legal need to inflict the appropriate minimal damage in other circumstances is recognized and stressed.

Their own basic premises' are as followed:

Do not care how much damage you're going to cause.
Cause as much damage as possible and run.
Do not try to prolong a fight. Do what needs to be done and escape with your life.

This being said, their training is quite rigorous. Some schools incorporate "Strike and Fight," which consists of full-contact sparring intended to familiarize the student with the stresses of a violent situation. Not much unlike tradtional Muay Thai gyms. (like what i train in!

Most instructors emphasize two training rules:
(1) there are no rules in a fight and
(2) one must not injure oneself or one's partner when training.

Training is an intense mixed aerobic and anaerobic workout, relying heavily on the use of pads in order to experience both delivery and defense of strikes at full force. This is important because it allows the student to practice the technique at full strength, and thus being able to see/feel the true effect of their strike like they would in a real fight.

It can be almost as taxing to hold a pad as to practice against one. Students will also wear head guards, gum shields, groin protectors, shin and forearm guards, etc during practice of attack/defence techniques, so that a realistic level of violence may be used without injury. Again like most Muay Thai gyms.

As well as training in the techniques of ground fighting, (punches, hammer-fists, elbows, and knees) or grappling (breaking out of chokes or wrist-grabs, getting out from under an opponent while on one's back). These are all vidal parts of Krav Maga's toolbox of teachings.

All in all, Krav Maga is a hybrid martial art that includes elements of striking as well as grappling.

Although it is effective in what it is intended for, Krav Maga in my opinon is not worth the time of a modern mixed martial artists looking to add effective martial arts to his game in order to compete at a high level. However it has its moments in a real life street fighting (life or death) situations, that make it worth while for those whom do that kinda thing. (i.e. thugs like me! )

But all in all, not a bad thing to take a few classes on, but not very helpful for MMArtists...

Not a bad thing for your chick to take up though, if shes anything like mine (and refuses to carry the .38 snubnose i bought her!) for protection.

[CSAR]

oh wait one last thing to csar... im sorry but high level sensei's in traditional martial arts are usually worthless.. they are so inundated with what they teach they can never accept what is effective and what is ineffective in what they learned (especially since no one has ever hit them in their face real nice)

I agree for the most part and completely understand what you're saying. But the Yoshinkan instructors I listed as being ideal to train with tend to think outside the box and don't have a dogmatic view of aikido. I've had several experiences where they were more than willing to throw out the fluff and point blank describe a particular technique as being worthless.

[mmasupplements]

it takes a lot of balls to do that.. amen to them

[yannick35]

Aikido is an art that you pratice because you really love it same has tae kwon do.

They are useless in the streets but fun to practice.

[sooners04]

Holly shit... that's exactly how I see Aikido and Krav maga, I think that every style could work, if they sparr their ass of in the gym, if there is no contac, yo only train techniques, man, it's all worthless.. once the real fight starts, and you dont really know where the acttack is going to come, all the years and years of techniques training are just useless... And there is a reason you dont see those techniques apply in real combat situations, or at least at practice, because simple it is imposible to do it.... As far as I can see, it doenst really matter what style you practice, if it is a stand up martial art, once the fight starts, it will probably end up with punching and kicking around, and if both guys are in the same out fit, you will not be able to say.. OHHH THIS GUY IS KRAV MAGA, THIS GUY IS TKD, THIS GUY IS KARATE, THIS GUY IS SAVATE, muay thai probably yes, cause they'll kick the **** out of your legs...

What I'm saying is, fancy techniques dont work... yes you can apply some kind of hold or fancy technique in some one that is not prepared or you take by sorprise... but when the fight is settle... forguet about all that bull shit... 'cause you probably will get KTFO...

By the way CSAR... you are so dam right about the knife stuff... And I think is pretty ****e up that they make you belive in the dojos, gyms or what ever that you are actually cabaple of dissarm someone and dont get hurt.. as you say, you may, but out of 10 times, 9 you will get hurt...

Not every martial art teaches "fancy" techniques, and as far as the defense against a knife or other weapons other than guns go, your right you will probably get hurt, but training to defend against it will increase your chances of surviving the attack. There is nothing out there that is full proof in ANY situation but having a plan to defend yourself is going to help keep you alive.

[zimmy]

Not every martial art teaches "fancy" techniques, and as far as the defense against a knife or other weapons other than guns go, your right you will probably get hurt, but training to defend against it will increase your chances of surviving the attack. There is nothing out there that is full proof in ANY situation but having a plan to defend yourself is going to help keep you alive.

there is one technique that is fool proof 90% of the time...avoid the situation. :P

[sooners04]

there is one technique that is fool proof 90% of the time...avoid the situation. :P

Couldn't agree more!!!!

[ayomacs]

footwork, using the power of the hips, taking the attacker's balance, neutralizing an attack at it's weakest point, etc., etc = QUOTE CSAR

you must be really dumb eh. like your gonna walk up to a mma fighter and (peace sign with two fingers up and down) TAKE THE ATTACKERS BALANCE.

your too funny man. First of all those instructors make you sit on your knees, the way they want . class sit like this . YOUVE BEEN HAD

[yannick35]

First of all aikido is very expensive, sounds weird that i have no MMA nor Muay Thai schools around my area but i have 3 private aikido schools, each one of them are well over 1000$ a year to practice.

I myself did 3 months of aikido when i was younger with some of my friends while we where in high school.

All i can say is that the techics are really hard to master, all big circular movement, and worth nada in the streets.

On the other hand aikido is a very peaceful martial art and if you have the patient to put 30 years of your life learning it then good for you.

One other thing about street fights and martial arts, i dont really think they go hand in hand because in a street fight or in a bar fight your opponant might be drunk and fight with no techic, its quit hard to apply a hold on someone when he is hammering you with fist sandwishes LOL.

You also have to consider the crowd around you, how do you want to kick when you are surrounded by 50 people?

Either it be MMA, muay thai or else i think that people should practice the art they love for fun, of course you can alway compete if that makes you happy, i am glad i did when i was younger, i am not old at 36 but the journey to get back in shape and my injuries would really slow me down.

I am going into kenpo karate after i finish my kickboxing classes, then again you cannot compare sparring in class to a real fight.