MMA Pound 4 Pound discussion

I'm a huge boxing fan (yes I'm old...lol), but have been a fan of MMA since the 1st UFC event when I was in college. I say this because I'm having an issue with calling Anderson Silva the P4P G.O.A.T in MMA, not that he probably isn't worthy of the moniker, but because the sport of MMA is so young, there isn't much to compare him to.

Using boxing as an example, there is a huge number of boxers over a 100yr period that we can discuss in that P4P discussion, but with MMA, the only two fighters that come to mind are the top two current P4P fighters, GSP, and Anderson Silva.

Just thought I'd raise the question and see if we can have an intelligent discussion...

The only problem with mentioning GSP in the p4p discussion is that he has never fought outside of the welterweight division. Fedor went undefeated for 10 years as an undersized heavyweight. Anderson Silva has dominated the MW division for 3 years and won a couple at LHW. With that being said , I would have to say that Royce Gracie is the Jim Thorpe of MMA. Yes either one would be (and have been) dominated by todays athletes, but no fighter will EVER defeat as many MUCH LARGER opponents as Royce Gracie did in the first 3 UFC's.

1. Royce
2. A. Silva
3. Fedor

I agree, its such a young sport and changing so fast. I think MMA is at a level now that it is going to stay at for a awhile. Most guys are so well cross trained that your never going to see a super striker come in, a mark coleman/mark kerr, or a bjj prodigy and rule the division.

I think anderson at this point is the p4p best of all time. Followed closely by gsp and a distant 3rd Fedor.

Anderson has cleaned out his division and so has Gsp. The difference is the level of competition most believe that anderson could make a title run at 205 and possibly hold the title. Gsp could make a title run but alot more doubt if he would hold the 185 pound title.

Fedor is on the tail end of his career. His loss to Werdum puts a big dent in his standing as the p4p best. As well as his managment and the constant negotions falling through to compete against the best of the best.

I loved pride but I wish that they could have merged with the ufc earlier to see some of the best heavies from pride compete under a unified banner at there best.

Crocop wasnt the crocop of old. Nog was beat up from his wars, etc.

What we are seeing now are the 1st generation fighters of mma. What I mean by this is they are all going to be good in all aspects of the game, etc. We are also going to see better and better athletes coming in.

So for now Anderson is the p4p best and if he were to fight gsp he would cement that legacy for some time. If gsp won it would cement his place in history as well.

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Originally Posted by grappler11

The only problem with mentioning GSP in the p4p discussion is that he has never fought outside of the welterweight division. Fedor went undefeated for 10 years as an undersized heavyweight. Anderson Silva has dominated the MW division for 3 years and won a couple at LHW. With that being said , I would have to say that Royce Gracie is the Jim Thorpe of MMA. Yes either one would be (and have been) dominated by todays athletes, but no fighter will EVER defeat as many MUCH LARGER opponents as Royce Gracie did in the first 3 UFC's.

1. Royce
2. A. Silva
3. Fedor

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I agree but you also have to look at the level of competition for his time, it was very low except a few fighters. Also didnt have enough documented fights.

I would rank sakuraba far above royce and you can argue he should have fought as a 155 pounder or a natural 170 but spent the majority of his career fighting people well above that. Not to mention he clowned Royce in there first meeting.

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Originally Posted by BgMc31

I'm a huge boxing fan (yes I'm old...lol), but have been a fan of MMA since the 1st UFC event when I was in college. I say this because I'm having an issue with calling Anderson Silva the P4P G.O.A.T in MMA, not that he probably isn't worthy of the moniker, but because the sport of MMA is so young, there isn't much to compare him to.

Using boxing as an example, there is a huge number of boxers over a 100yr period that we can discuss in that P4P discussion, but with MMA, the only two fighters that come to mind are the top two current P4P fighters, GSP, and Anderson Silva.

Just thought I'd raise the question and see if we can have an intelligent discussion...

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I do understand your thinking since MMA is just really a sport thats just evolved in some places(even though its been around for centuries in others)

If you followed since day 1 then there may be some variables you consider .
The first ufc's had no weight classes . That solidifies Royce Gracie I believe .
When you look at the other fighting organizations with rules allowing kicks to down component then things may be different . Ring vs Cage and so on .
There is Pride or was . M1 fighting in Europe , Showtime is entertaining . WEC or what was . Pancreas and crap I just Googled MMA . There is like 30 plus organizations
Jose Aldo is looking interesting . Just as I liked Erijah Faber for a long time . Good thing for weight classes .

So I guess depending on what is available to watch and how long you have watched would anyone have a opinion .
I decided I really know much less than I thought I know .

I understand the variables involved. But there is very few head to head comparisons that can be made. Too many what if's, such as could Royce in his prime beat a GSP in his prime. We don't know because Royce was strictly a BJJ guy. I love MMA, especially the new crop of guys like Jon Jones, Cain Velasquez, etc. So I'm just sitting around enjoying what it is. MMA is fun and exciting. I just think we should ease up on labeling anyone the GOAT. Because IMO, the greatest of all time is BRUCE LEE!!!! LOL!!!!!

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Originally Posted by mn_fighter

I agree but you also have to look at the level of competition for his time, it was very low except a few fighters. Also didnt have enough documented fights.

I would rank sakuraba far above royce and you can argue he should have fought as a 155 pounder or a natural 170 but spent the majority of his career fighting people well above that. Not to mention he clowned Royce in there first meeting.

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The Defenses that Red Grange played against are like high school teams of today, but he is still considered one of the greatest football players of all time. Royce is always in the conversation because of his impact on the sport more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by BgMc31

I'm a huge boxing fan (yes I'm old...lol), but have been a fan of MMA since the 1st UFC event when I was in college. I say this because I'm having an issue with calling Anderson Silva the P4P G.O.A.T in MMA, not that he probably isn't worthy of the moniker, but because the sport of MMA is so young, there isn't much to compare him to.

Using boxing as an example, there is a huge number of boxers over a 100yr period that we can discuss in that P4P discussion, but with MMA, the only two fighters that come to mind are the top two current P4P fighters, GSP, and Anderson Silva.

Just thought I'd raise the question and see if we can have an intelligent discussion...

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i think that in mma it is just like any sport where there arent multiple game-tournaments (ie mlb, nba) between the top teams. in single elemination tournaments its hard to judge who is truly the better competitor/team bc you are usually pulling from a one game/match. green bay just won the super bowl, but are they the best team in the nfl, or did they just simply win at the right time? and i think that argument could be made in any sport when you get to ranking GOATs of all time or in single seasons, no matter how long the sport has been around. with that being said...

to me there is no doubt that its anderson. hes has the longest winning streak, and has defended his title successfully more times, title defenses, not just consecutive wins (most impressive stat imo) in the best organization in the sport. not to mention has a wins in a larger weight class over top ranked competition.

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Originally Posted by grappler11;551***5

The Defenses that Red Grange played against are like high school teams of today, but he is still considered one of the greatest football players of all time. Royce is always in the conversation because of his impact on the sport more than anything else.

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If we are talking impact on the sport and then yes I would agree with you. P4p, to many other names even from that time period. Like I said Sak would be ahead of gracie in the p4p list.

Ok, I like the Gracie's, you like the Gracie Hunter. I wish that a Japenese business man would line up a PPV of Sakaruba vs. Rickson. I just don't think that there would be enough interest to get the payday that Rickson would demand.

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Originally Posted by BgMc31

I understand the variables involved. But there is very few head to head comparisons that can be made. Too many what if's, such as could Royce in his prime beat a GSP in his prime. We don't know because Royce was strictly a BJJ guy. I love MMA, especially the new crop of guys like Jon Jones, Cain Velasquez, etc. So I'm just sitting around enjoying what it is. MMA is fun and exciting. I just think we should ease up on labeling anyone the GOAT. Because IMO, the greatest of all time is BRUCE LEE!!!! LOL!!!!!

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I just posted a Bruce Lee link in another forum on here, you should check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRyDcB7qQFo

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Originally Posted by ****

I just posted a Bruce Lee link in another forum on here, you should check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRyDcB7qQFo

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I saw it brotha...thanks!! I put it on my FB page. I appreciate it!!!

I think the big problem with the pound for pound arguement is that with MMA its just that "mixed" . And because of that one guys style might score more points where as another might be for finishing.

GSP is amazing, but has alot of problems with finishing, but by no means should be out of the talk for the best.

A.silva has a bad issue of running during fights to the point he has actually been warned many times about running from a another fighter, but his knock-out ability is amazing, so it's hard to say if he is hanging on at times just to win, which isn't really fighting a full fight, its fighting until you have the points. . . but once again his negatives by no means take him out of the talk as best

Fedor, I am a massive fedor fan, and his biggest problem is that he let his management almost ruin his fighting career. and this coming year (including tonights fight) will only tell if he can still be in the running for best P4P, but as far as all time best P4P he has to be in the top three.

many other fights could have been great but they tried to be too much or push too far. . which makes their records bad, but you can make the argument at least they tried and pushed themselves instead of padding their records.

tito-injury
randy C- should have not fought heavy weight, his heavy weight record is horrible.
liddell - after a bad knock out, he never recovered, but kept fighting after his body couldn't fight anymore.
shamrock - fought too much past his prime
Dan Severn - fights too much to even rest (he is 52 yrs old and still fighting)
any of the Gracie's - they are amazing, they have had fights that went 90mins strait. strength, resistance to pain, everything is amazing. . but fought a lot of nobodies

quarry206

anderson "running" in your opinion, is him setting up his attack. his strongest assets is his ability to counter punch, so he makes guys come after him, he isnt running away. hes the champ and if someone wants to take his belt, they have to come get it, not the other way around. the challenger has to prove that they can beat the champ, not the other way around.

i would add tho that if you were going to dock anderson a point from being the p4p best, it would be because he has very little takedown defense. other than throwing some crazy strikes and changing angles.

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Originally Posted by dips

quarry206

anderson "running" in your opinion, is him setting up his attack. his strongest assets is his ability to counter punch, so he makes guys come after him, he isnt running away. hes the champ and if someone wants to take his belt, they have to come get it, not the other way around. the challenger has to prove that they can beat the champ, not the other way around.

i would add tho that if you were going to dock anderson a point from being the p4p best, it would be because he has very little takedown defense. other than throwing some crazy strikes and changing angles. you know I agree with this to a point, Sonnen destroyed him in this and on the ground, but belfort failed (though a short fight belfort said it was his plan), we will see if it was a fluke OR a weakness when Silva fights GSP in September

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though i totally agree he is a great striker, and counter striker at that (look at the griffin fight, or recently belfort), we can totally agree he is a great counter striker. . BUT!!! there is no doubt he in a fight has run from engaging, he has been warned by a referee a few times, judges have actually taken away points from him for running and/or avoiding contact in the 4th and 5th rounds. . . and though I see your point about "you have to beat the champ" that is a boxing saying, MMA has always prided itself on full contact and bell to bell. it is rare you see people run from contact in a championship fight in MMA.

I think you take a simple comment about him, a comment that Dana white and every writer in the business has said about him, as me disliking him, or docking him as one of the best. .


After his fight with Côté, October 25, 2008, A fight which ended by self injury (though helped by leg kicks), Silva was criticized for seemingly avoiding contact during the bout by Dana white

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I didn't understand Silva's tactics... It wasn't the Anderson Silva I've been watching the last two years.

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April 18, 2009 after his fight with Thales Leites Dana White has stated that he

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"was embarrassed by Silva's performance."

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during his April 10, 2010 fight dana white walked out during the fourth round because he was embarrassed to be there

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If he [Silva] ever acts like that again in the ring, I will cut him."[49]

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"he runs like a jackass for five rounds"

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thats just dana over talking as he always does. he wouldnt cut him, and have the best p4p fighter fighting for another promotion, i think is highly unlikely unless he looses.

where did you see this loosing points for running? he mite have lost the round for not being the aggressor, but ive never seen him deducted a point for it (maybe a yellow card in pride, but im pretty sure never in the ufc).

hes a counter striker, so he is best when they are coming after him, so why should he come after them (as long as he is the champ, he has nothing to prove or gain by this)? i dont understand your logic here? gsp has been scolded about putting on boring fights, so should gsp choose to stand and bang, instead of using his gnp where he has the best chance of winning over any fighter, bc its more exciting and he might have a chance of loosing?

if it wasnt for the gracies mma wouldnt be what it is....

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Originally Posted by mn_fighter

I agree but you also have to look at the level of competition for his time, it was very low except a few fighters. Also didnt have enough documented fights.

I would rank sakuraba far above royce and you can argue he should have fought as a 155 pounder or a natural 170 but spent the majority of his career fighting people well above that. Not to mention he clowned Royce in there first meeting.

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/\ /\ /\ I AGREE /\ /\ /\
the sport has evolved alot since then, but without them...at the beginning... we'd still be watching boxing :)