Thread: Opinions - offseason cardio/diet
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09-18-2006, 08:06 AM #1
Opinions - offseason cardio/diet
Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.
1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?
2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)
EX: Using a HITT training routine w/ progressive resistance.
Sun: OFF (high carb)
Mon: W-out (med)
Tues: OFF (high)
Wed: W-out (med)
Thurs: OFF (high)
Fri: W-out (med)
Sat: OFF (low carb)
What days, times of day etc would you suggest doing cardio and how frequent.. the goal/experiment is to maintain a low bodyfat percentage and optimize LBM growth during the off-season as to eliminate the bad-fats storing within the fat cells but rather replace them with better/cleaner fats in their place to make dieting easier and a more chiseled stage presence.
Sorry for the length but I'm trying to spark an interesting discussion that I can't quite find an answer too or much relevant information..
Discuss/Opinions welcomed.
Thanks for the time.-B D
DO NOT ASK FOR A SOURCE, NONE SHALL BE GIVEN.
If asking cycle advice Post up Stats/previous cycle experience/goals!
If asking diet advice Post Stats/current diet/goals!
“Your desire to change must be greater than your desire to stay the same.”
I B D
AR VET
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09-18-2006, 08:51 AM #2Banned
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I**... i was wondering could you post what you do or your response to the questions would be?
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09-18-2006, 08:59 AM #3
I'll get to that after I've received enough detailed responses.. I don't want to influence anyone's opinions or thoughts on the subject.
This is solely for educational purposes for myself and other members to see what everyone is doing and others opinions on the matter. Hoping to get some well-rounded and different responses.
No answer will be more right or wrong from another, this thread is to give various outlooks on different training/dietary approaches from different individuals.
Bino's response -
Originally Posted by C_BinoLast edited by IBdmfkr; 09-18-2006 at 09:02 AM.
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09-18-2006, 10:05 AM #4
I really do think forms of over eating in the off season are very beneficial, especially when you have just started a cycle and the main goal is new muscle tissue, why stimulate your body by intense training sessions and put in a building AAS stack to promote growth if you don't feed it?
There are many expressions like you cant mould a pot without clay! you cant start a fire without fuel! simply you cant build new muscle tissue without the nutrients so increasing the fuel to build them will give results,, growth in Humans is stimulated in shorts spurts so if the right environment is created by diet/training and AAS the whole result will be growth, the secret is creating that environment,
If extreme training is in your program and extreme stack/cycling then extreme food is also needed, i am not saying eat empty calories or unusable foods, clean overeating diet while in the off season is needed in my experiences,over eating /carb cycling would be ideal in many cases, nowadays alot of compounds are used to help with the added calories what might put on the bf, GH,clen ,IGF strict cardio,
With any off season diet one of the primary rules is controlling the bf without restricting growth, hit this correctly and you will all your goals answered, when the body is in a growth period over eating is a must and there on after controlling the diet to the body's needs is a mind field and goes far beyond training/diet/AAS, listening to your body and understanding it is vital and responding to how it reacts, which all comes down to experience and trying things for yourself to see if they work and not some study what says this happens,
Yes i do think cardio is important in the off season why challenge your health for a few added unwanted bodyweight lbs? cardio is very important in the whole process of building tissue, i find early morning is the only way to go and do what works for you policy is what is needed, i can tell you what works for me but you may be slightly different, do what works, try all forms of cardio and different times and judge and listen to your body how it responds,
dedication and motivation are 2 principles what need to be high, eat for growth and not for taste, feed the body and not the taste buds, introduce cardio and with the right added compounds the results should be new muscle tissue with minimal bf
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09-18-2006, 10:11 AM #5
Thanks for the great response Marcus.. Deff a different outlook on it, I agree with many of your ideas.
Btw, the new DY book comes out in the U.S. at the end of this month! Can't wait.
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09-18-2006, 10:14 AM #6Banned
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Even though i don't have much experince competing. Wouldn't being lean in the off-season respectably lower the amount of work/cardio/diet required during a contest prep?
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09-18-2006, 12:12 PM #7Originally Posted by FaizakaFez
~M.A.D.
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09-18-2006, 12:52 PM #8National Level Bodybuilder
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As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.
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09-18-2006, 04:02 PM #9Originally Posted by MrMent1on
True that...I also think you need to assess how easily you both put on fat and take it off...Someone who puts it on easily and burns it off slowly, will probably need to be more conscientious of that in the offseason and be more precise about both carb/fat intake, as well as cardio sessions, in order to be able to have enough time to burn off that fat when contest prep comes around...However someone like MR M or myself who doesn't put on fat easily and can shed what fat there is quite efficiently and quickly, can afford to not worry as much about carb/fat intake or cardio sessions. This type of persons main focus would be more on keeping protein/cals high and focusing on putting on as much LBM as possible...That would be my best analysis of the situation....?
~M.A.D.
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09-18-2006, 04:57 PM #10Originally Posted by MrMent1on
I consider myself to have a fast metabolism but if I eat just whatever I want on the offseason I don't feel my gains are maximized but rather need to take in quality foods to supply my muscles with what they need. I also follow a higher carb/lower protein approach whereas other's respond better off of the opposite.
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09-18-2006, 05:10 PM #11
I**mfkr judging by your avy you have look to have aquired a fair amount of mass and you are prolly ecto/meso?, so u can prolly get away with zero cardio and a loose diet. Also are u running any anabolics or gh? I have found that when I'm on a high dose of test the only thing I worry about is getting in ENOUGH cals regardless of the source. I've also found that I have a set point Bf% that my body likes to stay at regardless of my daily trips to McD's. Just my 2 cents.
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09-18-2006, 05:11 PM #12Originally Posted by I**mfkr
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09-18-2006, 05:17 PM #13
Cool, awaiting your response Spound.
Doittoit - I have to say I don't agree with "a sat BF%".. that's not even feasible considering you watch your calorie intake and include cardio in your program. That's another topic on it's own, but I've like to see more responses to the original questions/topic from various members who might have experimented with different ideas.
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09-18-2006, 06:58 PM #14National Level Bodybuilder
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IB the more shows you do, the more you diet and the more muscle you add to your frame, the harder it becomes to put on fat. so doittoti is right about you being able to get away without cardio for now. you will notice that after your next competition it will be harder to get back up to the BF% you carried before. you will stay leaner and leaner with each show.
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09-18-2006, 07:14 PM #15Originally Posted by MrMent1on
On that note Mr M, I have a question then, don't mean to hijack B D, but it along the lines of your topic....So is the first two/three weeks after a contest really important to stay in the gym, bring up the cals really high, but very lean and quality, to lay some serious LBM right away???
~M.A.D.
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09-18-2006, 07:26 PM #16
Ment thanks for the tips/response, I deff see the difference from prior to the show and now although my diet is much more on track as well and my lifts are much more intense, so this might also be a factor.
Undecided: Yes, it's the rebound effect most competitors get after a show.. PM ment for more info..
Back on topic for more opinions!
1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?
2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)
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09-19-2006, 06:16 AM #17
Interested as well.......When you say you "just eat" what does that entail...obviously a solid, clean protein source but you dont worry about gi indexes when chosing carbs and fats? Will u utilize bars and shakes? Fast food such as quiznoos and subway? (Not macd, wendys...) Out to dinner...pizza...etc.
Last edited by Columbus; 09-19-2006 at 06:19 AM.
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09-19-2006, 03:27 PM #18
I**mfkr how is your appetite? If u have a large appetite than I would suggest more clean foods to get above maintenance. For me foods like chicken breasts and oatmeal destroy my appetite and I find it hard to eat the cals needed, but my appetite sucks.
For the cardio I wouldn't personally do it. Some may suggest it enhances recovery, helps with appetite ect. Just not worth the risk. Also some say(dave palumbo) that the body wont resond as well to cardio when dieting if it is used in the offseason. So sit back, relax and let the good times roll!
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09-19-2006, 05:35 PM #19
Hey B D not to get off topic but I got a question for you. You said right now your protein isnt that high...around .75g/lb. That being true and the fact that you are still cycling carbs, on your low carb day, since your protein is still low are you hungry as hell or what, hwo do you deal with this?
I never like feeling hungry, and teh prob I have is that I eat every 2 hours, used to be every 3. Now my metabolism is speeding up to the point I get hungry every hour. Its not good.
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09-19-2006, 08:18 PM #20
On that note, B D, can you explain to be how you can bulk/grow with only .75 grams of protein per pound?? I know everyone is different, but I can't tell you the last time my protein wasnt atleast 1.5 grams per pound, even now as I'm cutting up for my show????? How can you grow like that???
~M.A.D.
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09-19-2006, 10:35 PM #21
MY opinions
Caps below...
Originally Posted by I**mfkr
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09-19-2006, 10:42 PM #22
I think Mr M needs to specify what he means by "I eat whatever I want as long as my cals are high"....I say that because i means something different for everyone, I earlier stated as well that I eat "more loosely" than most while bulking....However, my definition of loosely and someone elses might be completely different...When i say loosley I mean I go three days solid, and on day 4 solid with a cheat, etc etc...or 4 days solid and two days of, still quality food, but not so much specific, meaning 6 meals specific fooods, etc...So even when I'm being "loose" its not on a daily basis, more on a "meal" basis every so often, its regularly unregular, if that makes sense????
~M.A.D.
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09-19-2006, 11:32 PM #23Originally Posted by doittoit
Originally Posted by C_Bino
On my high carb days (500-600carbs) that I do the day before training my protein and fat content is Way low.
On my training days my carbs are around 400 and my protein bumps up to around 1g/lb LBM so you figure 175-200g protein (from meat sources, not including all my incomplete proteins equally normally another 50-75grams).
On Saturday I do one very low carb day just to throw things off, normally around 150-200carbs/day but my Protein and fats are jacked up to compensate although my calories are still significantly lower to make up for higher calories days during the week and/or cheats. So I go with around 1.5g/lb LBM and jump my fats to around 100g/day mostly from meat sources and *****s.
I just started this btw last week so I still don't have much feedback on it as of yet, but I'm staying very lean so far and Very FULL and vascular so something is going right. Lifts are insane and intensity is through the roof.
Originally Posted by Undecided09
Btw I've never had the opportunity to try the lower protein higher carb approach going into a show but I sure would love to try it next year when I compete again. I think it's the better way to go. Pinnacle is currently experimenting with this regimen and loving it so we'll see how he comes in.. Btw did I mention he is sitting under 3% bodyfat right now with 2wks to go at over 230lbs!!.. SICK!
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09-19-2006, 11:35 PM #24Originally Posted by spound
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09-19-2006, 11:48 PM #25Originally Posted by I**mfkr
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09-19-2006, 11:55 PM #26
My eyes disagreed with your use of CAPS
Honestly other than that the only thing that sticks out is the PWO cardio which I have tried before and won't do again. I feel directly after a workout your glycogen is low and your body is in a catabolic state, nutrients should be taken immediately. But by doing so it eliminates that window to successfully do cardio, so AM cardio is what I recommend as well Pre-breakfast but BCAA's are taken Precardio if that makes sense.
Good post though Spound, saved me the trouble and we see eye to eye on many things. Btw how's the off-season going!? Updates? Shoot me a PM brother.
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09-20-2006, 11:06 AM #27I grow off of my total calories consumed but mainly from the intensity that I lift and my time OFF from the gym resting. I do not over train, I work the muscle very intensely while in the gym for the short time I'm there and then get out and start recovering.. My body is fine with lower amounts of protein, who ever said so much protein is need anyhow? Everywhere I read that has any credibility says .8g/lb LBM for athletes. Supplement companies have you guys fooled.
~M.A.D.
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09-20-2006, 06:54 PM #28
I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted
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09-20-2006, 07:59 PM #29Originally Posted by doittoit
~M.A.D.
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09-20-2006, 08:43 PM #30Originally Posted by doittoit
Originally Posted by Undecided09Last edited by IBdmfkr; 09-20-2006 at 08:48 PM.
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09-20-2006, 08:47 PM #31Originally Posted by Undecided09
Honestly i try to ignore your posts when i read threads.
Anyone reading would swear that you've been doing this (being 'bodybuilding') for more than a year. "i always do this.. i never do that... this 'works'.. this doesn't"
Anyway.. to B D's questions:
Originally Posted by I B D
Originally Posted by I B D
Long term? No
Bodybuilding is an extreme sport... that being said, dietary extremes are 'necessary' at specific times. To elaborate.. dietary/supplementary extremes support training extremes (training extremes.. which are inherent to the bodybuilding conondrum).
Personally i don't believe in the dogma which suggests that you must pound calories day in and day out to make gains.. I think that's a fallacy. Sure pounding works.. but for a time. If there's anything i learned from my former coach it's this: "In bodybuilding EVERYTHING works.. but NOTHING works forever"
The human body is a wonderful adaptogenic organism.. That being said, while overfeed will shock the system, after a while the body acclimates and adjusts metabolic and hormonal output to re-establish metabolic homeostatis. This is manifested in various ways.. but the bottomline is overfeed will cease to be effective. Personally i believe in cyclic overfeed.. coupled with cyclic underfeed.
Originally Posted by I B D
Conversely, the ingestion of these foods at non-strategic times (pre-bed for example) has the inverse effect.
I think it's all about assessing yourself.. likes and dislikes etc. when customising your offseason. Personally there are certain foods i only consume pre contest. Offseason, if i don't feel like eating rice.. i won't. I don't force myself. Offseason for me is about meeting my requirements without inducing stress... as the precontest environment is detrimentally stressful in itself. I believe it cannot be 'healthy' to perpetuate stress year-round. If cardio is making me feel tired.. i drop it... Re-adding it when my body can cope. etc.
Originally Posted by I B D
As noted above.. it depends on external factors. Unless you're a pro, whose life revolves around training (i.e. external stressors are minimised), it would be unrealistic to state that cardio is a 'must'. I believe cardio; training; food intake; gear etc. must be cycled. The 'when' is established by being in tune to one's individual physiology: commonly called 'listening to your body' in bodybuilding circles. This ability is honed in years of competing.
And to those that state that individuals who do no cardio but remain lean offseason simply aren't eating enough.. i say bullshit.
Earlier in my career, as a junior, i stayed lean offseason.. even with a carb intake of 1k gr... and that's no BS.
Specific metabolic conditions denote an athlete's ability to stay lean or get 'fat'... it's not a cut and dry case of calories in.. versus calories out.
Additionally, as Mr.M said.. the more your compete the harder it is to get 'fat' post-contest... at least with reference to re-gaining one's previous level of bodyfat percentage.
More to come...
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09-20-2006, 08:53 PM #32Originally Posted by I B D
Er.. Training in this manner obviously your goal is to emphasize recuperation correct?
I'd do my cardio on the w-out days..
pwo.. 30 minutes
or pre-breakfast 45 minutes (i prefer pwo personally)
Originally Posted by I B D
Bump!
Narkissos
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09-20-2006, 08:54 PM #33
Nice detailed response C.. That's what I was looking for, still awaiting a number of members to come comment on their experiences and theories on these things.
Thanks for taking the time.
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09-20-2006, 08:55 PM #34Originally Posted by I**mfkr
Last time I checked my last post was a question.....
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09-20-2006, 08:58 PM #35
Edit: /rant removed
Bump!
Narkissos
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09-20-2006, 08:58 PM #36
Let's not trash this thread with worthless one-line responses please...
I was asking what your stats were for a reason, because I am curious as to your experience and your progression. Nothing more.
Back to the thread.
Nark, very much agreed bro I was in that same boat along with Everyone else at some point, but now I am slowly seeing through the uber high-protein smoke.
btw, just a side-note. I have been cycling carbs high/med and one day low for the past few weeks or so and have progressively made strength gains in the gym, BF hasn't budged but weight is very slowely/steadily going up. Intensity is better than ever in the gym and overall appearance is deffinently improved.
Nark, why did you remove your post? I thought it was very informative and this stuff needs to be said by someone although many will not agree.Last edited by IBdmfkr; 09-20-2006 at 09:04 PM.
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09-20-2006, 09:04 PM #37Originally Posted by Narkissos
~M.A.D.
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09-20-2006, 09:05 PM #38Originally Posted by I**mfkr
Will re-post when i can articulate my thoughts more smoothly lol (damned insomnia )
Nark
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09-20-2006, 09:08 PM #39
C, I understand.. You're more a gentleman than myself
Btw, The point of this thread was to help all members out and get new ideas for this off-season.. quit shitting in the thread.
Either add something worthwhile or go to the lounge. There is no need for back and forth bullshit, I just wanted different people's personal experiences and ideas for us to utilize to hopefully find new ways of training/dieting/etc..
Now can we get back to the thread?
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09-20-2006, 09:13 PM #40
yeah ofcourse B D, my apologies again, but I felt it was time for me to stop letting Nark put me down on this board, didn't mean for it to interupt the importance of this thread....I gave some of my experiences and my methods a few posts ago, ill answer any other questions as well to the best of my personal experience knowledge....
~M.A.D.
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