Opinions - offseason cardio/diet

[IBdmfkr]

Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.

1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?

2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)

EX: Using a HITT training routine w/ progressive resistance.

Sun: OFF (high carb)
Mon: W-out (med)
Tues: OFF (high)
Wed: W-out (med)
Thurs: OFF (high)
Fri: W-out (med)
Sat: OFF (low carb)

What days, times of day etc would you suggest doing cardio and how frequent.. the goal/experiment is to maintain a low bodyfat percentage and optimize LBM growth during the off-season as to eliminate the bad-fats storing within the fat cells but rather replace them with better/cleaner fats in their place to make dieting easier and a more chiseled stage presence.

Sorry for the length but I'm trying to spark an interesting discussion that I can't quite find an answer too or much relevant information..

Discuss/Opinions welcomed.
Thanks for the time.

[JohnboyF]

I**... i was wondering could you post what you do or your response to the questions would be?

[IBdmfkr]

I'll get to that after I've received enough detailed responses.. I don't want to influence anyone's opinions or thoughts on the subject.

This is solely for educational purposes for myself and other members to see what everyone is doing and others opinions on the matter. Hoping to get some well-rounded and different responses.

No answer will be more right or wrong from another, this thread is to give various outlooks on different training/dietary approaches from different individuals.

Bino's response -

I will tell you what I have been doing lately which I find works well. I rarely ever cycle carbs now, but I never have carbs in my last meal EVER, which I can tell is helping for sure.

I eat fairly low GI carbs year round and keep to eating every 2-2.5hrs during the day (no shakes of course ). And yes B D I eat 1 cup vegtables almost every meal. I never have veggies with breakfast though, no particular reason. Sometimes its half cup veggies with meals, all depends what im eating, say with oats I dont have as much...

I do cardio about 3 times a week now, down from 5 because of school now and already waking up at 6:30am for class. I still do it am empty stomach because I really think it works best, if im bulking or whatever I still do it that way. I will also put on 5 mins on the bike pre-workout to get the blood pumping.

Anyways I was saying I eat low GI, BUT i eat a little high GI food preworkout to fill liver glycogen with my amino's. This helps keep a reserve for when you are training, energy goes up a bit as well for the workout. I suggest everyone try this out and see.

I think what it comes down to is what works for you like everything else. I mean I know some Pro's go and eat KFC and McDonalds off season and i mean they are pro's. So its hard to say.

Also I train at the same gym as ******** (IFBB pro) from ******* and he just got *** place in his first pro show in ******* (beating out ******* etc). Anyways he will have big cheats, for example one meal he ate 10 chicken burgers from Wendys and 24 donuts.
I mean something I would NEVER do but hey he looks unbelievable.

But after talkin to some people like this and what not I am gonna try to do some different things with this next cycle. For example Mike Asiedu eats Jam (sugar free) with almost all meals in his oatmealand then its a little mix of high and low GI.

Also B D I dunno if you read in another thread but I now do my liquid amino's mixed with BCAA's and arginine/creatine while im working out. I sip a little between each set to keep a teady stream on aminos in me. Cuz those liquid aminos absorb SUPER fast.

Also Im gonna put some shakes back in my diet. A pre-bed formula with whey, milk, cassien, cassienate, egg white. So I have fast/med/slow digest in there before bed. May drink half right before i lay my head down and other half when I wake to piss, not sure.

Also im gonna hit pro/dex PWO again instead of the liquid amino's. But still BCAA's and all. I will be using egg white protein not whey though.

Hope this helps a little my friend. Good thread.

[marcus300]

I really do think forms of over eating in the off season are very beneficial, especially when you have just started a cycle and the main goal is new muscle tissue, why stimulate your body by intense training sessions and put in a building AAS stack to promote growth if you don't feed it?

There are many expressions like you cant mould a pot without clay! you cant start a fire without fuel! simply you cant build new muscle tissue without the nutrients so increasing the fuel to build them will give results,, growth in Humans is stimulated in shorts spurts so if the right environment is created by diet/training and AAS the whole result will be growth, the secret is creating that environment,

If extreme training is in your program and extreme stack/cycling then extreme food is also needed, i am not saying eat empty calories or unusable foods, clean overeating diet while in the off season is needed in my experiences,over eating /carb cycling would be ideal in many cases, nowadays alot of compounds are used to help with the added calories what might put on the bf, GH,clen,IGF strict cardio,

With any off season diet one of the primary rules is controlling the bf without restricting growth, hit this correctly and you will all your goals answered, when the body is in a growth period over eating is a must and there on after controlling the diet to the body's needs is a mind field and goes far beyond training/diet/AAS, listening to your body and understanding it is vital and responding to how it reacts, which all comes down to experience and trying things for yourself to see if they work and not some study what says this happens,

Yes i do think cardio is important in the off season why challenge your health for a few added unwanted bodyweight lbs? cardio is very important in the whole process of building tissue, i find early morning is the only way to go and do what works for you policy is what is needed, i can tell you what works for me but you may be slightly different, do what works, try all forms of cardio and different times and judge and listen to your body how it responds,

dedication and motivation are 2 principles what need to be high, eat for growth and not for taste, feed the body and not the taste buds, introduce cardio and with the right added compounds the results should be new muscle tissue with minimal bf

[IBdmfkr]

Thanks for the great response Marcus.. Deff a different outlook on it, I agree with many of your ideas.

Btw, the new DY book comes out in the U.S. at the end of this month! Can't wait.

[JohnboyF]

Even though i don't have much experince competing. Wouldn't being lean in the off-season respectably lower the amount of work/cardio/diet required during a contest prep?

[Undecided09]

Even though i don't have much experince competing. Wouldn't being lean in the off-season respectably lower the amount of work/cardio/diet required during a contest prep?

I would think so, but it would also lower the amount of mass you would have when you do shred off what you need because you didn't build as much as you could have when you were bulking, thats what I would think....I know this, "Bulk when your Bulking, and Cut when your cutting" one thing at a time...

~M.A.D.

[MrMent1on]

As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.

[Undecided09]

As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.

True that...I also think you need to assess how easily you both put on fat and take it off...Someone who puts it on easily and burns it off slowly, will probably need to be more conscientious of that in the offseason and be more precise about both carb/fat intake, as well as cardio sessions, in order to be able to have enough time to burn off that fat when contest prep comes around...However someone like MR M or myself who doesn't put on fat easily and can shed what fat there is quite efficiently and quickly, can afford to not worry as much about carb/fat intake or cardio sessions. This type of persons main focus would be more on keeping protein/cals high and focusing on putting on as much LBM as possible...That would be my best analysis of the situation....?

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

As for me, its not that serious. I eat whatever, I just make sure I get in enuogh protein. Other than that I dont count my carbs or fat off season. i believe I need a lot of carbs to get maximum growth.
As far as cardio. I dont do that either off season, I believe every cardio session burns some muscle, so I try to save as much as possible while off season. But everyone is different, I cant stress that enought. what works for me may not work for you, so you have to find what works for you and the only way your going to to that is by trying different things, more or less trial and error.

lol, yes but again your genetics are far superior than the average joe Ment.. You're like Dexter, stay lean as hell off of extremely high calories and no cardio up until the show.. few ppl are that lucky.

I consider myself to have a fast metabolism but if I eat just whatever I want on the offseason I don't feel my gains are maximized but rather need to take in quality foods to supply my muscles with what they need. I also follow a higher carb/lower protein approach whereas other's respond better off of the opposite.

[doittoit]

I**mfkr judging by your avy you have look to have aquired a fair amount of mass and you are prolly ecto/meso?, so u can prolly get away with zero cardio and a loose diet. Also are u running any anabolics or gh? I have found that when I'm on a high dose of test the only thing I worry about is getting in ENOUGH cals regardless of the source. I've also found that I have a set point Bf% that my body likes to stay at regardless of my daily trips to McD's. Just my 2 cents.

[spound]

lol, yes but again your genetics are far superior than the average joe Ment.. You're like Dexter, stay lean as hell off of extremely high calories and no cardio up until the show.. few ppl are that lucky.

I consider myself to have a fast metabolism but if I eat just whatever I want on the offseason I don't feel my gains are maximized but rather need to take in quality foods to supply my muscles with what they need. I also follow a higher carb/lower protein approach whereas other's respond better off of the opposite.

I am the same way I**, I will give my full response alter this week, I have a test tomorrow that I SHOULD be studying for RIGHT NOW lol

[IBdmfkr]

Cool, awaiting your response Spound.

Doittoit - I have to say I don't agree with "a sat BF%".. that's not even feasible considering you watch your calorie intake and include cardio in your program. That's another topic on it's own, but I've like to see more responses to the original questions/topic from various members who might have experimented with different ideas.

[MrMent1on]

IB the more shows you do, the more you diet and the more muscle you add to your frame, the harder it becomes to put on fat. so doittoti is right about you being able to get away without cardio for now. you will notice that after your next competition it will be harder to get back up to the BF% you carried before. you will stay leaner and leaner with each show.

[Undecided09]

IB the more shows you do, the more you diet and the more muscle you add to your frame, the harder it becomes to put on fat. so doittoti is right about you being able to get away without cardio for now. you will notice that after your next competition it will be harder to get back up to the BF% you carried before. you will stay leaner and leaner with each show.

On that note Mr M, I have a question then, don't mean to hijack B D, but it along the lines of your topic....So is the first two/three weeks after a contest really important to stay in the gym, bring up the cals really high, but very lean and quality, to lay some serious LBM right away???

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

Ment thanks for the tips/response, I deff see the difference from prior to the show and now although my diet is much more on track as well and my lifts are much more intense, so this might also be a factor.

Undecided: Yes, it's the rebound effect most competitors get after a show.. PM ment for more info..

Back on topic for more opinions!

1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?

2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)

[Columbus]

Interested as well.......When you say you "just eat" what does that entail...obviously a solid, clean protein source but you dont worry about gi indexes when chosing carbs and fats? Will u utilize bars and shakes? Fast food such as quiznoos and subway? (Not macd, wendys...) Out to dinner...pizza...etc.

[doittoit]

I**mfkr how is your appetite? If u have a large appetite than I would suggest more clean foods to get above maintenance. For me foods like chicken breasts and oatmeal destroy my appetite and I find it hard to eat the cals needed, but my appetite sucks.
For the cardio I wouldn't personally do it. Some may suggest it enhances recovery, helps with appetite ect. Just not worth the risk. Also some say(dave palumbo) that the body wont resond as well to cardio when dieting if it is used in the offseason. So sit back, relax and let the good times roll!

[C_Bino]

Hey B D not to get off topic but I got a question for you. You said right now your protein isnt that high...around .75g/lb. That being true and the fact that you are still cycling carbs, on your low carb day, since your protein is still low are you hungry as hell or what, hwo do you deal with this?
I never like feeling hungry, and teh prob I have is that I eat every 2 hours, used to be every 3. Now my metabolism is speeding up to the point I get hungry every hour. Its not good.

[Undecided09]

On that note, B D, can you explain to be how you can bulk/grow with only .75 grams of protein per pound?? I know everyone is different, but I can't tell you the last time my protein wasnt atleast 1.5 grams per pound, even now as I'm cutting up for my show????? How can you grow like that???

~M.A.D.

[spound]

Caps below...

Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.

1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth, what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?

SIMPLY PUT...YES. I FEEL THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO EAT CLEAN AT A CALORIE SURPLUS TO MAXIMIZE MUSCLE GROWTH SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE IN HIGHER CALORIES WHILE NOT PUTTING ON AS MUCH FAT, THEREFORE, THE CALORIES ARE MORE 'QUALITY' AND THEREFORE ARE USED FOR MORE BENEFICIAL PURPOSES THAN JUST PUTTING ON FAT (LIKE BUILDING MUSCLE) REMEMBER, THIS ALSO KEEPS THE BODY HEALTHIER AND A HEALTHY BODY, IS A MORE EFFICIENT BODY. I DO FEEL THAT FATS ARE NEEDED, BUT I DO NOT FEEL MUCH SATURATED FATS ARE NEEDED. I BELIEVE HIGH GI CARBS HAVE THEIR PLACE AS WELL, SUCH AS POST WORKOUT, AND ON HIGH CARB DAYS. I BELIEVE CARB CYCLING IS THE KEY TO STAYING LEAN WHILE EATING MASS QUANITITES DURING THE OFFSEASON...AT LEAST FOR ME.

2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)

YES, I FEEL CARDIO IS NECESSARY FOR MANY REASONS SUCH AS HEALTH, KEEPING FAT SOTRAGE TO A MINIMUM, AND RECOVERY. REMEMBER, THE POINT OF CARDIO IN THE OFFSEASON IS NOT TO TO BURN FAT, BUT RATHER TO PREVENT FAT STORAGE. THE CARDIO SHOULD BE VERY LOW INTENSITY SUCH AS 55-60% MHR 2-3 TIMES PER WEEK IN ORDER TO AID RECOVERY.

What days, times of day etc would you suggest doing cardio and how frequent.. the goal/experiment is to maintain a low bodyfat percentage and optimize LBM growth during the off-season as to eliminate the bad-fats storing within the fat cells but rather replace them with better/cleaner fats in their place to make dieting easier and a more chiseled stage presence.

I WOULD SUGGEST CARDIO EITHER IN THE AM ON AN EMPTY STOMACH OR RIGHT AFTER TRAINING (BEFORE pwo NUTRITIONAL INTAKE) REMEMBER THOUGH, CARDIO SHOULD BE VERY LOW INTESITY!!

Sorry for the length but I'm trying to spark an interesting discussion that I can't quite find an answer too or much relevant information..

Discuss/Opinions welcomed.
Thanks for the time.

ANOTHER POINT i WOULD LIKE TO MAKE: PEOPLE KEEP SAYING THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO CARDIO, AND I BELIEVE THAT TO SOME DEGREE, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF IMPORTANCE THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT OUT. I BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE IS STAYING EXTREMLY LEAN IN THE OFFSEASON WITH NO CARDIO, THAT THEY SHOULD BE EATING MORE. BOTTOM LINE. WHY NOT JUST TAKE IN MORE CALS AND ADD IN SOME CARDIO? THEN YOU WOULD PROBABLY PUT ON MORE MASS. AND ALSO, THE GUYS WHO ET LIKE SHIT IN THE OFFSEASON SUCH AS PIZZA, BURGERS ETC AND STILL STAY LEAN, WELL, I DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD STAY THIS LEAN IF THEY WERE EATING ENOUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE. I SAY THIS B/C I HAVE AN EXTREMLY FAST METABOLISM ...I MEAN FAST!! B4 I STARTED bb'ING SERIOUSLY I USED TO EAT MCDONALDS TWICE EVERYDAY AND OTHER FOODS THAT WERE BAD SUCH AS PIZZA, ETC... I NEVER GOT FAT AT ALL EITHER. BUT NOW, IF I ADD IN SOME PIZZA, WHILE ALSO TAKING IN 6-7 OTHER QUALITY MEALS PER DAY, THE CALORIES JUST COMPOUND ON EACH OTHER, CAUSING INEVITABLE FAT STORAGE.

[Undecided09]

I think Mr M needs to specify what he means by "I eat whatever I want as long as my cals are high"....I say that because i means something different for everyone, I earlier stated as well that I eat "more loosely" than most while bulking....However, my definition of loosely and someone elses might be completely different...When i say loosley I mean I go three days solid, and on day 4 solid with a cheat, etc etc...or 4 days solid and two days of, still quality food, but not so much specific, meaning 6 meals specific fooods, etc...So even when I'm being "loose" its not on a daily basis, more on a "meal" basis every so often, its regularly unregular, if that makes sense????

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

I**mfkr how is your appetite? If u have a large appetite than I would suggest more clean foods to get above maintenance. For me foods like chicken breasts and oatmeal destroy my appetite and I find it hard to eat the cals needed, but my appetite sucks.
For the cardio I wouldn't personally do it. Some may suggest it enhances recovery, helps with appetite ect. Just not worth the risk. Also some say(dave palumbo) that the body wont resond as well to cardio when dieting if it is used in the offseason. So sit back, relax and let the good times roll!

Appetite is always good, I usually get approx 400-500calories/meal every 2hrs starting at 8am until usually 8-10pm. Meals never fill me up, yet I'm never hungry so it's just a constant flow of nutrients and reduces bloat in my a**ominal.

Hey B D not to get off topic but I got a question for you. You said right now your protein isnt that high...around .75g/lb. That being true and the fact that you are still cycling carbs, on your low carb day, since your protein is still low are you hungry as hell or what, hwo do you deal with this?
I never like feeling hungry, and teh prob I have is that I eat every 2 hours, used to be every 3. Now my metabolism is speeding up to the point I get hungry every hour. Its not good.

Sorry didn't really elaborate on that much Bino

On my high carb days (500-600carbs) that I do the day before training my protein and fat content is Way low.

On my training days my carbs are around 400 and my protein bumps up to around 1g/lb LBM so you figure 175-200g protein (from meat sources, not including all my incomplete proteins equally normally another 50-75grams).

On Saturday I do one very low carb day just to throw things off, normally around 150-200carbs/day but my Protein and fats are jacked up to compensate although my calories are still significantly lower to make up for higher calories days during the week and/or cheats. So I go with around 1.5g/lb LBM and jump my fats to around 100g/day mostly from meat sources and *****s.

I just started this btw last week so I still don't have much feedback on it as of yet, but I'm staying very lean so far and Very FULL and vascular so something is going right. Lifts are insane and intensity is through the roof.

On that note, B D, can you explain to be how you can bulk/grow with only .75 grams of protein per pound?? I know everyone is different, but I can't tell you the last time my protein wasnt atleast 1.5 grams per pound, even now as I'm cutting up for my show????? How can you grow like that???

~M.A.D.

I grow off of my total calories consumed but mainly from the intensity that I lift and my time OFF from the gym resting. I do not over train, I work the muscle very intensely while in the gym for the short time I'm there and then get out and start recovering.. My body is fine with lower amounts of protein, who ever said so much protein is need anyhow? Everywhere I read that has any credibility says .8g/lb LBM for athletes. Supplement companies have you guys fooled.

Btw I've never had the opportunity to try the lower protein higher carb approach going into a show but I sure would love to try it next year when I compete again. I think it's the better way to go. Pinnacle is currently experimenting with this regimen and loving it so we'll see how he comes in.. Btw did I mention he is sitting under 3% bodyfat right now with 2wks to go at over 230lbs!!.. SICK!

[IBdmfkr]

Caps below...



ANOTHER POINT i WOULD LIKE TO MAKE: PEOPLE KEEP SAYING THAT EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO CARDIO, AND I BELIEVE THAT TO SOME DEGREE, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF IMPORTANCE THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT OUT. I BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE IS STAYING EXTREMLY LEAN IN THE OFFSEASON WITH NO CARDIO, THAT THEY SHOULD BE EATING MORE. BOTTOM LINE. WHY NOT JUST TAKE IN MORE CALS AND ADD IN SOME CARDIO? THEN YOU WOULD PROBABLY PUT ON MORE MASS. AND ALSO, THE GUYS WHO ET LIKE SHIT IN THE OFFSEASON SUCH AS PIZZA, BURGERS ETC AND STILL STAY LEAN, WELL, I DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD STAY THIS LEAN IF THEY WERE EATING ENOUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE. I SAY THIS B/C I HAVE AN EXTREMLY FAST METABOLISM ...I MEAN FAST!! B4 I STARTED bb'ING SERIOUSLY I USED TO EAT MCDONALDS TWICE EVERYDAY AND OTHER FOODS THAT WERE BAD SUCH AS PIZZA, ETC... I NEVER GOT FAT AT ALL EITHER. BUT NOW, IF I ADD IN SOME PIZZA, WHILE ALSO TAKING IN 6-7 OTHER QUALITY MEALS PER DAY, THE CALORIES JUST COMPOUND ON EACH OTHER, CAUSING INEVITABLE FAT STORAGE.

Very good points, agreed on almost everything.

[spound]

Very good points, agreed on almost everything.

Could you tell me what you disagree on? I always like to see the other side of things I am open minded to all experiences.

[IBdmfkr]

My eyes disagreed with your use of CAPS

Honestly other than that the only thing that sticks out is the PWO cardio which I have tried before and won't do again. I feel directly after a workout your glycogen is low and your body is in a catabolic state, nutrients should be taken immediately. But by doing so it eliminates that window to successfully do cardio, so AM cardio is what I recommend as well Pre-breakfast but BCAA's are taken Precardio if that makes sense.

Good post though Spound, saved me the trouble and we see eye to eye on many things. Btw how's the off-season going!? Updates? Shoot me a PM brother.

[Undecided09]

I grow off of my total calories consumed but mainly from the intensity that I lift and my time OFF from the gym resting. I do not over train, I work the muscle very intensely while in the gym for the short time I'm there and then get out and start recovering.. My body is fine with lower amounts of protein, who ever said so much protein is need anyhow? Everywhere I read that has any credibility says .8g/lb LBM for athletes. Supplement companies have you guys fooled.

Well they must have done a good job then, because I know on a personal note, if I ever let myself have less than even 1 g per Lb a day I'd freak!!! lol....I guess maybe thats why you and I differ B D...You say you make sure your total cals are high, where as I concentrate mostly on where the cals are coming from, when I'm bulking I like to take in 300-350 g of p per day, and twice that in dry carbs, if that makes sense....I think I might need to do a better job of estimating my cals this offseason, I would have 3000-3500 cals in a day only counting protein, the dry carbs (starchy), and just estimating my fat!!! so thats not including my fibrous carbs, and only guesstimating my fat intake!....

~M.A.D.

[doittoit]

I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted

[Undecided09]

I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted

You see thats where I differ though from most who do keep their protein high all the time...My protein comes almost all from from food!!! Shake is only post lift, and bedtime at the most, the rest is protein from food, its atleast a 4 to 2 ratio of protein from food to protein from shakes....So maybe that is the big difference maker, high protein from food opposed to just high protein anyway you can get it???

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

I**mfkr i am totally starting to sway towards the lesser amounts of protein during bulking and cutting. When I first started I was obsessed with chugging back whey isolate 5 times a day, i grew but i was also a newb so....My first/last comp i went very high protein(500g+) towards the end with 150g carb and I shriveled up.....Just started deiting today for 2nd comp, taking opposite approach, will keep u guys posted

Deff interested bro, start a log if you have time, love to follow it. Keep it as detailed as possible.

You see thats where I differ though from most who do keep their protein high all the time...My protein comes almost all from from food!!! Shake is only post lift, and bedtime at the most, the rest is protein from food, its at least a 4 to 2 ratio of protein from food to protein from shakes....So maybe that is the big difference maker, high protein from food opposed to just high protein anyway you can get it???

~M.A.D.

What is your training experience Undecided, current weight? Number of years training? etc Have you ever tried this other approach to experiment or compare the two? Why is it you think you'd lose muscle off less than 1g/lb LBM when the average male in America take in probably less than .5g/lb LBM and they maintain their muscle just fine, why is an athlete different? Who told you and what studies show that it takes gobbs of protein to rebuild muscle tissue? Curious because I haven't yet come across any.

[*Narkissos*]

Well they must have done a good job then, because I know on a personal note, if I ever let myself have less than even 1 g per Lb a day I'd freak!!! lol....I guess maybe thats why you and I differ B D...You say you make sure your total cals are high, where as I concentrate mostly on where the cals are coming from

~M.A.D.

Honestly i try to ignore your posts when i read threads.

Anyone reading would swear that you've been doing this (being 'bodybuilding') for more than a year. "i always do this.. i never do that... this 'works'.. this doesn't"

Anyway.. to B D's questions:

Been getting mixed opinions on this subject lately on various boards. But either way I'd like to put it out and get opinions/feedback on a few topics with detailed responses.

On every board there is a 'board doctrine'.. thus the responses will differ (whether there is actual legitimacy to claims or not)... That being said.. i'll take a shot based on my personal experience.

1. Do you feel dieting to an extreme, above maintenance calories in the off-season is needed to maximize muscle growth

Technically.. yes.
Long term? No

Bodybuilding is an extreme sport... that being said, dietary extremes are 'necessary' at specific times. To elaborate.. dietary/supplementary extremes support training extremes (training extremes.. which are inherent to the bodybuilding conondrum).

Personally i don't believe in the dogma which suggests that you must pound calories day in and day out to make gains.. I think that's a fallacy. Sure pounding works.. but for a time. If there's anything i learned from my former coach it's this: "In bodybuilding EVERYTHING works.. but NOTHING works forever"

The human body is a wonderful adaptogenic organism.. That being said, while overfeed will shock the system, after a while the body acclimates and adjusts metabolic and hormonal output to re-establish metabolic homeostatis. This is manifested in various ways.. but the bottomline is overfeed will cease to be effective. Personally i believe in cyclic overfeed.. coupled with cyclic underfeed.

what are the benefits/disadvantages to eating higher GI/higher sat fat foods from your personal experience and research?

Depends on the timing of said foods. For me i find that higher GI foods at specific points increase my feelings of wellbeing..and make me feel stronger... same for higher sat fat containing foods... transiently i get stronger and bigger.. and feel more 'comfortable' mentally. Feeling confortable goes a longer way.. as, imo this can translate into reduced cortisol/norepinephrine output.. Even if it is placebo, if i 'feel better' i 'look better'.

Conversely, the ingestion of these foods at non-strategic times (pre-bed for example) has the inverse effect.

I think it's all about assessing yourself.. likes and dislikes etc. when customising your offseason. Personally there are certain foods i only consume pre contest. Offseason, if i don't feel like eating rice.. i won't. I don't force myself. Offseason for me is about meeting my requirements without inducing stress... as the precontest environment is detrimentally stressful in itself. I believe it cannot be 'healthy' to perpetuate stress year-round. If cardio is making me feel tired.. i drop it... Re-adding it when my body can cope. etc.

2. Cardio - Is it necessary and when do you feel is the best time to utilize it in the off-season (considering an athlete is eating extremely clean, yet at least 500calories above maintenance every 2hrs during the day and rotating carbs)

Not exactly

As noted above.. it depends on external factors. Unless you're a pro, whose life revolves around training (i.e. external stressors are minimised), it would be unrealistic to state that cardio is a 'must'. I believe cardio; training; food intake; gear etc. must be cycled. The 'when' is established by being in tune to one's individual physiology: commonly called 'listening to your body' in bodybuilding circles. This ability is honed in years of competing.

And to those that state that individuals who do no cardio but remain lean offseason simply aren't eating enough.. i say bullshit.

Earlier in my career, as a junior, i stayed lean offseason.. even with a carb intake of 1k gr... and that's no BS.

Specific metabolic conditions denote an athlete's ability to stay lean or get 'fat'... it's not a cut and dry case of calories in.. versus calories out.

Additionally, as Mr.M said.. the more your compete the harder it is to get 'fat' post-contest... at least with reference to re-gaining one's previous level of bodyfat percentage.

More to come...

[*Narkissos*]

EX: Using a HITT training routine w/ progressive resistance.

Sun: OFF (high carb)
Mon: W-out (med)
Tues: OFF (high)
Wed: W-out (med)
Thurs: OFF (high)
Fri: W-out (med)
Sat: OFF (low carb)

What days, times of day etc would you suggest doing cardio and how frequent.. the goal/experiment is to maintain a low bodyfat percentage and optimize LBM growth during the off-season as to eliminate the bad-fats storing within the fat cells but rather replace them with better/cleaner fats in their place to make dieting easier and a more chiseled stage presence.

Honestly?

Er.. Training in this manner obviously your goal is to emphasize recuperation correct?

I'd do my cardio on the w-out days..

pwo.. 30 minutes

or pre-breakfast 45 minutes (i prefer pwo personally)

Sorry for the length but I'm trying to spark an interesting discussion that I can't quite find an answer too or much relevant information..

Discuss/Opinions welcomed.
Thanks for the time.

No prob

Bump!

Narkissos

[IBdmfkr]

Nice detailed response C.. That's what I was looking for, still awaiting a number of members to come comment on their experiences and theories on these things.

Thanks for taking the time.

[Undecided09]

Deff interested bro, start a log if you have time, love to follow it. Keep it as detailed as possible.



What is your training experience Undecided, current weight? Number of years training? etc Have you ever tried this other approach to experiment or compare the two? Why is it you think you'd lose muscle off less than 1g/lb LBM when the average male in America take in probably less than .5g/lb LBM and they maintain their muscle just fine, why is an athlete different? Who told you and what studies show that it takes gobbs of protein to rebuild muscle tissue? Curious because I haven't yet come across any.

Last time I checked my last post was a question.....

[*Narkissos*]

Edit: /rant removed

Bump!

Narkissos

[IBdmfkr]

Let's not trash this thread with worthless one-line responses please...
I was asking what your stats were for a reason, because I am curious as to your experience and your progression. Nothing more.

Back to the thread.

Nark, very much agreed bro I was in that same boat along with Everyone else at some point, but now I am slowly seeing through the uber high-protein smoke.

btw, just a side-note. I have been cycling carbs high/med and one day low for the past few weeks or so and have progressively made strength gains in the gym, BF hasn't budged but weight is very slowely/steadily going up. Intensity is better than ever in the gym and overall appearance is deffinently improved.
Nark, why did you remove your post? I thought it was very informative and this stuff needs to be said by someone although many will not agree.

[Undecided09]

Honestly i try to ignore your posts when i read threads.

Anyone reading would swear that you've been doing this (being 'bodybuilding') for more than a year. "i always do this.. i never do that... this 'works'.. this doesn't"

I typically try to ignore the things you say in response to what I say Nark because its always negative and taken the wrong way...what is wrong with saying "I always, I never, this works for me"??? I mean I think I have a right to mention the things that I have had success with and pass the things I have found successful with to others to allow them to do with it what they please??? I'm not claiming to be right, or wrong, about anything, I'm merely saying "THIS IS WHAT I DO ", "THIS IS WHAT I DON"T DO", or "I HAVE HAD GOOD RESULTS WITH..." I don't see the harm in that?? It seems to me like you speak in terms of "right" and "wrong" on here too much, or atleast in response to things I say, when in reality I don't think training, dieting can even be spoken of in terms of right and wrong, because something that works for one person may not work for another, everyone is different. My point is I merely speak in terms of what I know, what I have accomplished, and how I did it...I'm offering what success I have had and how I accomplished those success for others to ponder over, thats all....SORRY ABOUT ALL THAT B D!! I didn't mean to be rude, this is your thread, lets get back to helping him out....

~M.A.D.

[*Narkissos*]

Nark, why did you remove your post? I thought it was very informative and this stuff needs to be said by someone although many will not agree.

The way it was worded appeared akin to a borderline rant... not characteristic of my posting persona.

Will re-post when i can articulate my thoughts more smoothly lol (damned insomnia )

Nark

[IBdmfkr]

C, I understand.. You're more a gentleman than myself

Btw, The point of this thread was to help all members out and get new ideas for this off-season.. quit shitting in the thread.

Either add something worthwhile or go to the lounge. There is no need for back and forth bullshit, I just wanted different people's personal experiences and ideas for us to utilize to hopefully find new ways of training/dieting/etc..

Now can we get back to the thread?

[Undecided09]

yeah ofcourse B D, my apologies again, but I felt it was time for me to stop letting Nark put me down on this board, didn't mean for it to interupt the importance of this thread....I gave some of my experiences and my methods a few posts ago, ill answer any other questions as well to the best of my personal experience knowledge....

~M.A.D.