Getting serious about the cutting. MIKEXXL DR Derek and others who know about cuttin

[KunipshunFit]

Ok, first let me start by saying that I've been training for 4 years now seriously. I've done one major diet *show diet* before i started my first bulking cycle ever.

i started at around 220 @18%bf and went down to around 178 @ 7%. I feel I lost way way to much muscle however, my goal was the 6pack and the veins and i got both.

however, I am now 5 weeks post first cycle, and i went up to 225. I've started back dieting so that when i start the "cutting cycle" i'm going to run on Jan 4th. I'll be in decent shape and wont have too much weight to lose and can focus on modling my body and focusing on key areas.

I'm hoping to get down to around 10% by then...

I'm doing the diet which i did last time. (*listed below*) i'm 5'8 210lbs not sure of Bf, maybe 15-16ish...

Meal 1: Protien Shake 2scoops of 30g protein mixed with egg white
Meal 2: Protien Bar 6g fat (4.5 saturated) 180mg sodium 3carbs (2 are dietary fibers) 29g of protien 250 calories
Meal 3: 2 Chicken breasts 1 sweet potato and a cub of steamed cabage
Meal 4: Mass Recovery Drink: 35g Protien, 60g Carb 6 are sugar 380 calories
Meal 5: Protien Shake 2 scoops of 30g protien (post work out)
Meal 6: 2 lean Steaks OR 2 chicken breasts OR some form of protien in solid "food" form with a salad and 1 potato*(oil and vinegar dressing on the side)*
Meal 7: Salad if hungry

***EDIT*** I am consuming 1/4 of a gallon of water while doing cardio....1/2 - 1 gallon while at work and another 1/4 gallon while working out after work, then about 1/4-1/2 gallons while at home after the gym. and am considering putting lemon juice in the water since it's a natural dieuretic *spelling* ****END EDIT****

I am trying to incorporate more real foods and less shakes just 1 meal worth.

I am doing cardio 30 minutes a day 5 days a week...training 4 days a week. *last time i did 45 minutes a day, and think this contributed to the muscle loss*

M - Chest and Tri's
T - Shoulders
W - Legs
Th - Off
F - Back and Bi's *Tuesday and Friday are interchangeable*
Saturday OFF
Sunday OFF

My upcomming cycle is going to be
I'm going to shoot myself every 3rd day.

600mg Test Enanthate Wk 1-14
600mg TTokyo EQ WK 1-14
50mg zambon winny ED 5-6weeks *start week 9-14

any help is appreciated with the diet and anything else.

Again, i dont want to be at 6-7 percent before the cycle, since it's going to be a cutting cycle, but i think 10 would be acceptable....

Thanx again for any and all help!

I'm trying to run this warm up diet before the cycle to condition myself AND then when i start the cycle, i'm going to do what i call a "test" run, for a show i am planning on trying to do later in 03'.....Novice class..

[KunipshunFit]

bump for some advice on the diet or other aspects

[MIKE_XXL]

Hey Bro i am really busy with my last week prep for my show, but i will get to this in a near future, by sunday night for sure...thanks...XXL

[KunipshunFit]

no prob...i appreciate your help...goodluck in your show...

[Dr. Derek]

I have either misunderstood your post or I'm just a fucking idiot. Let me get this straight you want to diet before you do your cycle, and try to get to 10%? If this is the question then here is my answer. I'M GONNA YELL THIS, DONT DIET BEFORE YOU START YOUR CUTTING CYCLE. Your much better off starting your strick diet when you start your cycle. If you diet before the cycle there is a very very good chance that your going to lose muscle. If your on when your cutting then your body is always in a positive nitrogen balance, protien sythesis is through the roof and your metabolism is cranking. So please dont diet outside of your cutting cycle.

As for the diet I think that you shoudl consume more whole foods less shakes and bars. Bars and shakes cannot deliver to your body the macronutrients that a steak, eggs, chicken, tuna, rice, pasta, potatos, etc..... You should look at putting alittle more protien and just the same carbs into your diet, its amazing what the body will do when you bump up the cal. I actually eat more when I'm dieting for a show, than I am right now.

I'm sure mike, primmo, silverfox and the other competitors on the board will be able to add more, but my brains are fried right now. Peace

[KunipshunFit]

No,DrDerek your not an idiot..i did say i wanted to diet down before i did the cycle. The only reason i'm considering this is because after my bulking cycle I kept the cals high to maintain as much as possible and well that has left my abdominal region flabby. I would be content with simply getting back into what I call average shape before the cycle...I'm not looking to do a long long diet as I know your body reacts better to the shock of the diet and the AS will help.

I'm just trying to learn the best way to do that. Ultimately I would like to be off of this diet *pending i do start and complete it, by Dec. 1 or sometime around then, so that my body would have at least 4-5 weeks to recover.

I'm not sure if i made my intentions clear, or I very may well have made them clear and am simply an idiot myself. Either way, i'm trying to up the solid food intake and maintain a more "proper" diet

i weighed in today at 212 on one scale. and honestly the weight is a good thing, i justdont like the flab and water retention that I amhaving from it. I've been told that i'm still holding a lot of water from the dbol i was running. So the cardio is an attempt to aleviate that problem. And again I'm not sure if i'm going about this the right way or not.
Diet is my key weakness, I do not know enough about nitrogen balance, protien synthesis or any of the other key aspects of dieting. That's why i'm reading up on a few things, and asking a few questions here and there.

Thanx for yourhelp, and any more advice is greatly appreciated.

Kunipshun

[silverfox]

I am with Dr. D, more real food! Only shake you should need is post workout, rest should be real food. OTher than that you look on track. Also going to be hard to diet and not lose some muscle without AAS.

[KunipshunFit]

I do want more real food in my diet, and am trying to incorporate it. It is just harder when I'm at work from 8-5 every day.

I've looked over a few things, and am curious as to how this would work.

Breakfast
3whole eggs, 3 whites

Snack
2 Chicken Breasts

Lunch
Chicken Breast, Steamed Veggies, Potato

Snack
(have no clue here)

Post work out meal
Protien Shake or Drink

Dinner
Steak/Pork/some meat, steamed cabbage and a sweet potato OR
Whole wheat pasta with lean hamburger or baked chicken strips

late night snack *if needed*
Salad with oil and vinegar dressing.

My problem is I have yet to find much in the way of protien that I can enjoy or even tolerate while eating. i like Chicken, Steak, Hamburger and do not like tuna and am "TRYING" to aquire a taste for oatmeal for the morning meal instead of the eggs.

any and all help is appreciated with the diet

Also, does my training split look ok? And the cardio is 30X5 is this alright for moderate dieting?

thanx for the help

[silverfox]

Key is to get all your food ready and take a cooler to work with you. I do that and everyone laughts at me, but so what.

[KunipshunFit]

Good advice Silverfox...I've been doing that for around a year "when dieting" so maybe 2 times for 12 - 16 weeks...but then again, i consider the word diet to mean what you eat....not "starve yourself"....so i guess i always bring some form of diet....


MikeXXL - Congrats on the show, I saw the pics, amazing job.


Thanx all for the advice so far....what are some opinions on the second diet line-up I posted? Does that look like a decent one?


again any and all help appreciated.

[MIKE_XXL]

I would add Flaxseed oil to your snack # 1 and chicken or somekind of protein to you late night snack, othere then that it is a very low carb diet so make sure you get planty of EFA like Flaxseed oil, Olive oil etc. to make up for the calorie deficit you will be creating, i would aim at around 2200 calories and drop 100 and ad 100 every other day Ex. Day1 2100 cal, Day2 2200 cal, Day3 2300 cal, Day4 2200 cal, Day5 2100 cal etc, you get the point and i would adjust carbs to manipulate the total caloric intake. Your new diet is deffinitely better as it consists of more solid foods...good luck...XXL

[KunipshunFit]

Thank you very much Mike and all who've helped...i did the first diet i proposed for the 1st week, this is the 2nd week and i've adjusted it to the second diet, been off a little....i'm still giving myself a cheat day, so i can carb up.....

I didnt even think about flaxseed oil..thanx mike!

[xcelbeyond]

I've always known this, but have only practiced it for pre-contest. Now, I've made it a standard operating practice. Lactose (the carb portion of dairy/aka milk sugar) gives you "thick skin." So to help achieve that ripped, thin-skin look, you need to eliminate dairy - I've just done that as SOP. Since doing so, for about last 6 weeks, I've gotten VERY VASCULAR, which I'm usually VERY thick-skinned until contest time!

In N. America, we are one of the few countires in the world that preach "milk" as a staple for ADULTS. I may not buy into all that, but since I'm a bb'er, I avoid lactose at all times (my choice).

You haven't stated what your goals are with this diet - competeing, pictures, look better?!? Point I'm trying make here is DON'T eat DAIRY on your "cheat" days - lot of other carbs to induldge in

xcel

[KunipshunFit]

My goals are...

I dieted down to around 7-8% bodyfat last summer, i was doing a competition diet, dieting with a friend of mine who was doing a show...I was basically doing it because i wanted to see how lean "I" could get. I had the abs and everything, and the veins were looking great.

Then I did my very first cycle and went from 178 at the lowest to 225 at the heaviest. That being said, It was obviously a bulking cycle, which consisted of T200 and EQ, both at 400mg a week for 12 weeks. I threw in dbol for the first 4 weeks.

I retained a lot of water throughout my entire cycle, due to poor diet. I ate clean 4 days a week, but 3 i would end up eating with the 'rents, or the girlfriend, and just didnt eat like I should....enough ice cream adds up...and it also is the dairy you were speaking of.

So this time, i've been doing cardio for roughly a month....4 weeks this Wed. And my goal is to get back down to around 200 - 195, so that i'm in much better "healthy" shape. Then come late feb, I plan on doing a competition style diet regiment to get down to 7-8% again, and this time I hope to come in heavier. My ultimate goal is to be 200 with 6pack abs, which means i'll wanna be roughly 7%....

after that, i'm going to shot for 220 with the abs...

Simplified, my goal currently is to get rid of some of the water retintion i'm holding, though diet and cardio, and to as always grow in size and strength.

Any other questions, feel free to ask. I've got pictures on various threads in the pics forum....i'll search for the link and add it in...granted they are of me from "Winter" time, which means i'm fat as hell in them.

Lata

KunipshunFit

[Dr. Derek]

Originally posted by xcelbeyond
I've always known this, but have only practiced it for pre-contest. Now, I've made it a standard operating practice. Lactose (the carb portion of dairy/aka milk sugar) gives you "thick skin." So to help achieve that ripped, thin-skin look, you need to eliminate dairy - I've just done that as SOP. Since doing so, for about last 6 weeks, I've gotten VERY VASCULAR, which I'm usually VERY thick-skinned until contest time!

In N. America, we are one of the few countires in the world that preach "milk" as a staple for ADULTS. I may not buy into all that, but since I'm a bb'er, I avoid lactose at all times (my choice).

You haven't stated what your goals are with this diet - competeing, pictures, look better?!? Point I'm trying make here is DON'T eat DAIRY on your "cheat" days - lot of other carbs to induldge in

xcel

Now this is the first thing I can rememeber that I will have to disagree with silverfox on. At least for me, and in my younger days Milk was a NO NO. Chris Aceto preached that it would make my skin thick so I cut it, period. Now that I'm back and competeing again I used milk in my shakes up until 4 weeks out. I was more vascular and may skin was thinner than when I did not use milk.

Now- I'm not sure but in my old competing days I did not drink as much water either, the diet is basically the same except for a few carbs and protien intake. The only other thing that is different is my age.

So one of two things either drinking all the water changed my skin or it was because I got older. I think age plays a big part.

I'm not telling you to chug milk, I'm just tellign you my experience. I will drink milk-

[xcelbeyond]

Dr Derek
This "could" be an individual thing, but I've heard from too many different sources to doubt it. My own experiences (remember I'm "only" 49 ): When I was competeing, I cut out dairy (as I was told) during pre-contest, at no other time though. I could never get "thin skin", it would somewhat thin out about contest time but not never very well.

Since I started practicing this, I'm more vascular today than I was when I stepped on stage (of course I've been holding ~6.5% BF - but that nowhere lean enough for me to think about stepping on stage)!

xcel

[str82hellnback]

does dairy include cheese b/c I am on CKD and I couldn't imagine not using cheese,way too much fat to take in to not have cheese,please give me some feedback b/c im stumped on this one,peace

[xcelbeyond]

Well this is what "I" do as I consider myself a bodybuilder. I'm 5' 6", 185#, 6.75% BF (and still bulking & able to do it staying lean!!) with a relatively "small" frame based on my 6-1/4" wrist measurement. In street clothes I don't "look" that big to "most" regular people. When I have my shirt off, am in a tank top, or in a snug t-shirt, people don't ask if I'm a bodybuilder, THEY KNOW!

Regular folk have no idea that the reason you're big/muscular is the fact that you're "lean!" (and I don't consider myself that big) I've been 215 lbs and never got a second look. In the summertime (when I'm lean) I almost want to avoid people as so many want to ask me about my physique. MANY people (on AAS and not) have big muscles but just look big - most people just categorize those bros as overweight - WTF (I don't).

Now having "thin skin" ADDS to that muscular appearance. "I" wasn't able to do it without eliminating lactose (dairy) from my diet. Based on what Dr D stated, I'm unique, but I think that he may be the unique one

I only have cheese occasionally (like once every 2 weeks on a cheat day). I'm not saying cheese (or any dairy) is "bad" for you. I'm just saying if you want "that look," you'll avoid it - it's "YOUR" choice!

xcel

[silverfox]

Milk bloats me like a MF, but as Dr. D said he can drink it, good friend of mine who complete nationally and has VERY VERY thin skin eat milk products up until 2 weeks out, so yes think it depends on person for most part.

[majorpecs]

Hey man, for snacks I suggest tuna. I bring 20 cans to work every monday and eat 2 cans twice a day for a "snack"...easy, quick, taste like ass and 70g protein!!

[dtdionne]

olive oil, flax oil, wal nuts, almonds, peanuts, peanut butter and some more olive oil....walnuts have more fiber(carbs) then almonds and peanuts or peanut butter so watch the carbs in the nuts but be sure to subtract the dietary fiber from the total carb count.

[KunipshunFit]

Thanx for the suggestions about the tuna and milk, along with the info on the "nuts" of sorts LOL...

I currently have the flu, so i'm out of action for 3 days max. Gotta rest up and let the body recover.

I need to ask...What can i add to Tuna to make it eatable...cause my god in heaven it taste like ASSSSSSS...I've heard vinegar but i dunno.

I think i'm going to add some various "nuts" to the morning snack, and am trying to add the tuna to the late afternoon, and evening snack..i just can not stomach thetuna...

Thanx again....

[xcelbeyond]

Originally posted by KunipshunFit
I need to ask...What can i add to Tuna to make it eatable...cause my god in heaven it taste like ASSSSSSS...I've heard vinegar but i dunno.

It's your breath that smells like you've been eating pussy that gets people to look at you weird at work

Mustard works good, so do strong, sugar-free breath mints .

xcel

[mrdraco]

I chop up an avacado and mix it in really good. Otherwise too much tuna gives me heartburn.

Avacado = High in healthy fats, low in carbs.

[NubianBeauty]

Mustard does the trick for me I also boil eggs and use them in the Tuna as well, only 1 yolk and 3 whites. Actually tastes pretty good. I take about 20 cans to work too and everybody knows what they are smelling when they walk in my office It's always eggs or Tuna, sometimes both.