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  1. #41
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    ohh yeah you might buy it there lol. also you are probably talking about 100ml here so its not one stab in the but its more like 10 stabs all over the ass and quads

  2. #42
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    damn well the max i can inject is 2cc rite? how much is that i dunno much bout needles and stuff

  3. #43
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    and im gonna inject the b-complex too....can i do that on the same day
    i need info bout that gonna search...a bit

  4. #44
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    about those studies another flaw is that the didnt give vitamin c alone.

  5. #45
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    1ml=1cc. Well I have injected 5cc so 2cc is not any kind of max. I dont know the deal with water soulable things though. They give kids vit c injections in the ass but ammounts I dont know.

  6. #46
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    Exercise training and supplementation with carnitine and antioxidants increases carnitine stores, triglyceride utilization, and endurance in exercising rats.

    Kim E, Park H, Cha YS.

    Department of Food Science & Human Nutrition, and Institute for Molecular Biology and Genetics, Chonbuk National University, Chonju 561-756, Korea.

    This study evaluated the effects of supplementation of carnitine and antioxidants on lipids, carnitine concentrations, and exercise endurance time in both trained and untrained rats as compared to non-supplemented rats. Thirty-two male SD rats, age 7 wk were divided into four groups according to exercise training and modified AIN-76 diets: NTNS (non-trained non-supplemented), NTS (non-trained supplemented), LTNS (long-trained non-supplemented) and LTS (long-trained supplemented). The trained rats were run on a treadmill for 60 min per day (10(0) incline, 20 m/min for 8 wk). Carnitine (0.5%/diet) and vitamin E (0.5 mg/g b.w.) were supplemented in rat diets and vitamin C (0.5 mg/g b.w.) and melatonin (1 microg/g b.w.) were administered into the stomachs of the rats. LTNS and LTS rats had significantly lower serum total lipid, triglyceride, total cholesterol and liver triglycerides, but had higher serum HDL-cholesterol. There were no changes in exercise endurance time by supplementation in untrained animals, however endurance times were longer in LTS animals than in LTNS. The supplementation and training tended to increase carnitine palmitoyltransferase (CPT-I) activities, although the differences were not statistically significant. Likewise, CPT-I mRNA levels were higher in both supplemented and exercise trained rats. These results suggest that supplementation of carnitine and antioxidants may improve lipid profiles and exercise ability in exercise-trained rats.

    PMID: 15754494 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Since this was done on rats I dont know the implications in human use. But the vitamin c dosage was FAR greater and that is what interestes me

  7. #47
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    Free Radic Biol Med. 2005 Apr 1;38(7):898-907. Related Articles, Links


    Vitamin C homeostasis in skeletal muscle cells.

    Savini I, Catani MV, Duranti G, Ceci R, Sabatini S, Avigliano L.

    Department of Experimental Medicine and Biochemical Sciences, University of Rome Tor Vergata, Via Montpellier 1, 00133 Rome, Italy.

    In skeletal muscle, vitamin C not only enhances carnitine biosynthesis but also protects cells against ROS generation induced by physical exercise. The ability to take up both ascorbic and dehydroascorbic acid from the extracellular environment, together with the ability to recycle the intracellular vitamin, maintains high cellular stores of ascorbate. In this study, we examined vitamin C transport and recycling, by using the mouse C2C12 and rat L6C5 muscle cell lines, which exhibit different sensitivity to oxidative stress and GSH metabolism. We found that: (1) both cell lines express SVCT2, whereas SVCT1 is expressed at very low levels only in proliferating L6C5 cells; furthermore L6C5 myoblasts are more efficient in ascorbic acid transport than C2C12 myoblasts; (2) C2C12 cells are more efficient in dehydroascorbic acid transport and ascorbyl free radical/dehydroascorbic acid reduction; (3) differentiation is paralleled by decreased ascorbic acid and dehydroascorbic acid transport and reduction and increased ascorbyl free radical reduction; (4) differentiated cells are more responsive to oxidative stress induced by glutathione depletion; indeed, myotubes showed increased SVCT2 expression and thioredoxin reductase-mediated dehydroascorbic acid reduction. From our data, SVCT2 and NADPH-thioredoxin-dependent DHA reduction appears to belong to an inducible system activated in response to oxidative stress.

    PMID: 15749386 [PubMed - in process]
    notice the bold. Vitamin c protects cells against ROS(reactive oxygen spieces) generation induced by physical exercise

  8. #48
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    Respir Physiol Neurobiol. 2004 Nov 30;144(1):81-90. Related Articles, Links


    The oxidative stress in response to routine incremental cycling exercise in healthy sedentary subjects.

    Jammes Y, Steinberg JG, Bregeon F, Delliaux S.

    Service des Explorations Fonctionnelles Respiratoires, Hopital Nord, Assistance Publique-Hopitaux de Marseille, Chemin des Bourrely, 13015 Marseille, France. jammes.y@jean-roche.univ-mrs.fr

    The kinetics of blood markers of the oxidative stress during and after an incremental exercise until the maximal performances is not documented in healthy sedentary subjects. We studied subjects of both sexes cycling on an ergometer until or near the V(O)(2)(max) measurement, and we measured during exercise and a 30-min recovery period the plasma concentration of thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS) which explored the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and two antioxidants (plasma reduced ascorbic acid (RAA) and erythrocyte reduced glutathione (GSH)). Despite we noted inter-individual differences in the instants of maximal variations of TBARS, GSH, and RAA, they were all measured within the first 20 min of the post-exercise recovery period, and at the 30th min of recovery, the three ROS blood markers tended to recover their pre-exercise levels. The maximal TBARS increase was positively correlated with V(O)(2)(max) and negatively correlated with the magnitude of RAA consumption. Our results indicate the existence of an early post-exercise oxidative stress in healthy sedentary volunteers. They also show that the ROS production is proportional to the maximal aerobic power and inversely related to the consumption of plasma antioxidants.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial

    PMID: 15522705 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    negatively correlated means that increased RAA decreased TBARS. Im not sure what the word "correlated" means

  9. #49
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    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2004 Aug;14(4):377-88. Related Articles, Links


    Effects of antioxidant therapy in women exposed to eccentric exercise.

    Bloomer RJ, Goldfarb AH, McKenzie MJ, You T, Nguyen L.

    Department of Health and Sport Sciences, the University of Memphis, Memphis, TN 38152-3480, USA.

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of antioxidant therapy on indirect markers of muscle damage following eccentric exercise (EE). Eighteen women were randomized to an antioxidant supplement or a placebo before a bout of EE. Plasma creatine kinase (CK) activity, muscle soreness (MS), maximal isometric force (MIF), and range of motion (ROM) were assessed before and through 14 d postexercise. Eccentric exercise resulted in an increase in CK activity and MS, and a drop in MIF and ROM during the days following EE, which returned to baseline values 14 d after EE in both groups. Antioxidants attenuated the CK activity and MS response to the EE, while little difference was noted between groups in MIF or ROM. These findings suggest that antioxidant supplementation was helpful in reducing the elevations in plasma CK activity and MS, with little impact on MIF and ROM loss.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 15467097 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    the fact that it helped against muscle soreness must have some kind of implication. When I think about it I havent been realy sore anywhere since I started vit c experiment and I had rested for over 9 days before so I should have feelt good soreness.

  10. #50
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    J Physiol. 2004 Jul 15;558(Pt 2):633-45. Epub 2004 May 28. Related Articles, Links


    Supplementation with vitamins C and E inhibits the release of interleukin-6 from contracting human skeletal muscle.

    Fischer CP, Hiscock NJ, Penkowa M, Basu S, Vessby B, Kallner A, Sjoberg LB, Pedersen BK.

    Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Copenhagen, Denmark. cfischer@rh.dk

    Contracting human skeletal muscle is a major contributor to the exercise-induced increase of plasma interleukin-6 (IL-6). Although antioxidants have been shown to attenuate the exercise-induced increase of plasma IL-6, it is unknown whether antioxidants inhibit transcription, translation or translocation of IL-6 within contracting human skeletal muscle. Using a single-blind placebo-controlled design with randomization, young healthy men received an oral supplementation with either a combination of ascorbic acid (500 mg day(-1)) and RRR-alpha-tocopherol (400 i.u. day(-1)) (Treatment, n= 7), or placebo (Control, n= 7). After 28 days of supplementation, the subjects performed 3 h of dynamic two-legged knee-extensor exercise at 50% of their individual maximal power output. Muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis were obtained at rest (0 h), immediately post exercise (3 h) and after 3 h of recovery (6 h). Leg blood flow was measured using Doppler ultrasonography. Plasma IL-6 concentration was measured in blood sampled from the femoral artery and vein. The net release of IL-6 was calculated using Fick's principle. Plasma vitamin C and E concentrations were elevated in Treatment compared to Control. Plasma 8-iso-prostaglandin F(2alpha), a marker of lipid peroxidation, increased in response to exercise in Control, but not in Treatment. In both Control and Treatment, skeletal muscle IL-6 mRNA and protein levels increased between 0 and 3 h. In contrast, the net release of IL-6 from the leg, which increased during exercise with a peak at 3.5 h in Control, was completely blunted during exercise in Treatment. The arterial plasma IL-6 concentration from 3 to 4 h, when the arterial IL-6 levels peaked in both groups, was approximately 50% lower in the Treatment group compared to Control (Treatment versus Control: 7.9 pg ml(-1), 95% confidence interval (CI) 6.0-10.7 pg ml(-1), versus 19.7 pg ml(-1), CI 13.8-29.4 pg ml(-1), at 3.5 h, P < 0.05 between groups). Moreover, plasma interleukin-1 receptor antagonist (IL-1ra), C-reactive protein and cortisol levels all increased after the exercise in Control, but not in Treatment. In conclusion, our results show that supplementation with vitamins C and E attenuated the systemic IL-6 response to exercise primarily via inhibition of the IL-6 protein release from the contracting skeletal muscle per se.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 15169848 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    I have no clu though if its a good thing to inhibit Interleuin-6 release from the muscle. But the first bold shows that lipi peroxide was lowered in the group that got vit c and alpha tocepherol(sp?)

  11. #51
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    jsut read that interleukin-6 is a marker of peripheral inflammation so it must be good to lower it.

  12. #52
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    Interleukin-6 (IL-6) is a pro-inflammatory cytokine that also has an important role in immunity. IL-6 induces growth and terminal differentiation of B cells; secretion of immunoglobulins; differentiation and activation of T cells and macrophages; and the induction of acute-phase response proteins (1). The gene for IL-6 is located on chromosome 7p21 (2). Many types of cells, including macrophages, T cells, fibroblasts, and endothelial cells, produce IL-6 in response to stimuli such as bacteria, viruses, and other cytokines, particularly IL-1 and tumor necrosis factor, alpha (TNF).

    Interleukin-6 (IL-6) is a pro-inflamatory cytokine secreted by T cells and macrophages to stimulate immune response to trauma, especially burns or other tissue damage leading to inflammation. Additionally osteoblasts to stimulate osteoclast formation. Inhibitors of IL-6 (including estrogen) are used to treat postmenopausal osteoporosis.

  13. #53
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    this is a interesting studie on rats

    Di Yi Jun Yi Da Xue Xue Bao. 2003 Sep;23(9):892-4. Related Articles, Links


    [Effect of antioxidant vitamins on the exercise performance of rats]

    [Article in Chinese]

    Yu B, Qin CH, Luo JW, Yang JC, Lin WT, Wen XY, Huang LY.

    Department of Orthopedic and Traumatology, Zhujiang Hospital, First Military Medical University, Guangzhou 510282, China.

    OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of antioxidant vitamins (vitamin E and vitamin C) on the exercise performance of rats. METHODS: Fifty male SD rats were randomly divided into control group (C), exhausting exercise control group (E), vitamin E group (M1), vitamin C group (M2) and vitamin E plus vitamin C group (M3). The rats in the exercising groups (E, M1, M2, M3) were propelled for repeated exhausting runs on the treadmill for 4 weeks. RESULTS: Exclusive use of oral vitamin E or in combination with vitamin C significantly improved the body mass, total exercise treadmill length and net mass of rat quadriceps femoris after the 4-week exercise. No difference was noted between the rats taking oral vitamin C or E alone. The rats in M1, M2 and M3 groups had lower malondialdehyde (MDA) and free calcium content in the quadriceps femoris than the control rats, and SOD activities in the quadriceps femoris mitochondria of rats in the former 3 groups were significantly higher than those of the control group. CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin E can protect the mitochondria in the skeletal muscles and improve the exercise performance of rats, the effect of which can be enhanced by vitamin C, but vitamin C alone can not sufficiently achieve the effects.

    PMID: 13129711 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    at first it makes it sound like vit c isnt all that needed or benifical. But offcourse vitamin c supplements WONT make a difference in rats because they have a natural production of vit c that would equal over 10grams/day in a man and that can increase to twice as much under stress.

    anyway I wonder if this can carryover into humans. That would probably mean that vit c and vit e can increase performance.

  14. #54
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    this one is IMPORTANT since LDL and HDL levels should be something we all would like to keep a check on.

    Clin Sci (Lond). 2004 Jan;106(1):107-9. Related Articles, Links


    Effect of ascorbate on serum lipids and urate metabolism during exhaustive training.

    Yanai H, Morimoto M.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Sapporo Self-Defense Hospital, Sapporo 062-8610, Japan.

    Physical activity is associated with beneficial changes in serum lipids, but exhaustive exercise has been suggested to increase oxidative stress. To test the effect of ascorbate (vitamin C) on serum lipids and the metabolism of urate, which is the most important intrinsic antioxidant, during exhaustive exercise, we performed a randomized, blinded, placebo-controlled study on eight male well-trained athletes. Subjects were randomly allocated to either a group given 1000 mg of ascorbate daily (n=4) or a placebo group (n=4). Fasting serum lipids and urate concentrations were measured before and after 3 weeks of training. Although serum low-density lipoprotein (LDL)-cholesterol levels decreased and high-density lipoprotein (HDL)-cholesterol levels increased significantly in the ascorbate group after the 3 weeks of training, serum LDL-cholesterol levels increased and HDL-cholesterol levels decreased significantly in the placebo group. Furthermore, serum urate levels were elevated significantly in the placebo group; however, these levels did not change in the ascorbate group. When compared with the placebo group, significantly higher serum HDL-cholesterol and lower serum LDL-cholesterol and urate levels were observed in the ascorbate group after training. In conclusion, our results suggested that ascorbate may contribute to the desirable changes in serum lipids during exhaustive training and suggest the significant association between ascorbate and urate under intense training.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 12927020 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  15. #55
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    and 2 more before I stop.

    Now you have some reading alpha-man

    Free Radic Biol Med. 2003 Aug 1;35(3):284-91. Related Articles, Links


    Exercise-induced endotoxemia: the effect of ascorbic acid supplementation.

    Ashton T, Young IS, Davison GW, Rowlands CC, McEneny J, Van Blerk C, Jones E, Peters JR, Jackson SK.

    Department of Sport Science, De Montfort University, Lansdowne Road, Bedford, England, UK. tashton@dmu.ac.uk

    Strenuous, long-duration aerobic exercise results in endotoxemia due to increased plasma levels of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) leading to cytokine release, oxidative stress, and altered gastrointestinal function. However, the effect of short-term strenuous aerobic exercise either with or without antioxidant supplementation on exercise-induced endotoxemia is unknown. A significant increase in the concentration of bacterial LPS (endotoxin) was noted in the venous circulation of healthy volunteers following maximal acute aerobic exercise (0.14(-1) pre-exercise vs. 0.24(-1) postexercise, p <0.01). Plasma nitrite concentration also increased with exercise (0.09 +/- 0.05 nM x ml(-1) vs. 0.14 +/- 0.01 nM x ml(-1), p <0.05) as did ascorbate free radical levels (0.02 +/- 0.001 vs. 0.03 +/- 0.002 arbitrary units, p <0.05). Oral ascorbic acid supplementation (1000 mg) significantly increased plasma ascorbic acid concentration (29.45 mM x l(-1) to 121.22 mM x l(-1), p <0.05), and was associated with a decrease in plasma LPS and nitrite concentration before and after exercise (LPS: 0.01(-1); nitrite: 0.02 +/- 0.02 nM x ml(-1) vs. 0.02 +/- 0.03 nM x ml(-1)). Ascorbic acid supplementation led to a significant increase in ascorbate free radical levels both before (0.04 +/- 0.01 arbitrary units) and after exercise (0.06 +/- 0.02 arbitrary units, p <0.05). In conclusion, strenuous short-term aerobic exercise results in significant increases in plasma LPS levels (endotoxemia) together with increases in markers of oxidative stress. Supplementation with ascorbic acid, however, abolished the increase in LPS and nitrite but led to a significant increase in the ascorbate radical in plasma. The amelioration of exercise-induced endotoxemia by antioxidant pretreatment implies that it is a free radical-mediated process while the use of the ascorbate radical as a marker of oxidative stress in supplemented systems is limited.

    PMID: 12885590 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Pflugers Arch. 2003 Sep;446(6):658-64. Epub 2003 Jul 12. Related Articles, Links


    Influence of vitamin C diet supplementation on endogenous antioxidant defences during exhaustive exercise.

    Tauler P, Aguilo A, Gimeno I, Fuentespina E, Tur JA, Pons A.

    Laboratori de Ciencies de l'Activitat Fisica, Dept Biologia Fonamental i Ciencies de la Salut, Universitat de les Illes Balears, Crta. Valldemossa, km 7,5, 07071, Palma de Mallorca, Balearic Islands, Spain.

    We determined the effects of dietary vitamin C supplementation on erythrocyte antioxidant enzymes and on plasma antioxidants during athletic competition and short-term recovery. Blood samples were taken from 16 volunteer endurance athletes, participating in a duathlon competition, under basal conditions and both immediately and 1 h after the competition. The results were analysed taking into account the individual vitamin C intake and the plasma levels. Athletes were assigned to either the vitamin C-supplemented or control groups ( n=8 each). The control group had normal plasma ascorbate levels, the supplemented group high levels as a result of the higher vitamin C intake. Uric acid and lactate dehydrogenase increased after the competition only in the control group. Plasma ascorbate decreased after short-term recovery in the supplemented group. Erythrocyte catalase activity increased after the competition in the supplemented group. Glutathione peroxidase activity (determined with cumene hydroperoxide as substrate) increased only in the control group after short-term recovery. This pattern may suggest an important role for plasma ascorbate, and dietary vitamin C supplementation, in the defence against oxidative stress induced by exercise and in avoiding negative effects on erythrocyte integrity.

    PMID: 12861413 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  16. #56
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    Int J Sports Med. 2001 Oct;22(7):537-43. Related Articles, Links


    Vitamin C supplementation attenuates the increases in circulating cortisol, adrenaline and anti-inflammatory polypeptides following ultramarathon running.

    Peters EM, Anderson R, Nieman DC, Fickl H, Jogessar V.

    Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Natal, Durban, South Africa. futree@med.und.ac.za

    The effects of vitamin C supplementation on the alterations in the circulating concentrations of cortisol, adrenaline, interleukin-10 (IL-10) and interleukin-1 receptor antagonist (IL-1Ra) which accompany ultramarathon running were measured using immuno-chemiluminescence, radioimmunoassay and ELISA procedures. Forty-five participants in the 1999 Comrades 90 km marathon were divided into equal groups (n = 15) receiving 500 mg/day Vit C (VC-500), 1500 mg/day Vit C (VC-1500) or placebo (P) for 7 days before the race, on the day of the race, and for 2 days following completion. Runners recorded dietary intake before, during and after the race and provided 35 ml blood samples 15 - 18 hrs before the race, immediately post-race, 24 hrs post race and 48 hrs post-race. Twenty-nine runners (VC-1500, n = 12; VC-500, n = 10; P, n = 7) complied with all study requirements. All post-race concentrations were adjusted for plasma volume changes. Analyses of dietary intakes and blood glucose and anti-oxidant status on the day preceding the race and the day of the race did not reveal that carbohydrate intake or plasma vitamins E and A were significant confounders in the study. Mean pre-race concentrations of serum vitamin C in VC-500 and VC-1500 groups (128 +/- 31 and 153 +/- 34 micromol/l) were significantly higher than in the P group (83 +/- 39 micromol/l). Immediate post-race serum cortisol was significantly lower in the VC-1500 group (p < 0.05) than in P and VC-500 groups. When the data from VC-500 and P groups was combined (n = 17), immediate post-race plasma adrenaline, IL-10 and IL-1Ra concentrations were also significantly lower (p < 0.05) in the VC-1500 group. The study demonstrates an attenuation, albeit transient, of both the adrenal stress hormone and anti-inflammatory polypeptide response to prolonged exercise in runners who supplemented with 1500 mg vitamin C per day when compared to < or = 500 mg per day.

    Publication Types:
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    Controlled Clinical Trial

    PMID: 11590482 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  17. #57
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    damn, just got into the office, not sure how much time i'll have to go over all this today, since Saturdays are very busy on our car lot...anyhoo, from what i remember in the research i found yesterday, it did say that some studies showed benefit, others did not...ive always heard that 'megadoses' of vitamins were very harmful for a person, and that you should get all you need from a well-balanced, healthy diet...if for some reason, you have a defecit, i.e. sickness/illness, etc, then of course, supplementation is necessary...what i would be most interested in, and what i could not find yesterday, are the studies you referenced by Charles Pollquin (sp?)...those are probably what we need to go by, or find some that are done in this manner: group A = experienced bodybuilders in their 20s on a healthy, well-balanced diet, no steroids who receive a 'megadose' of Vitamin C alone (cuz most of the studies you and i have posted were done with vit. C and other antioxidants) after a typical workout, and group B (control) = same subjects who receive either nothing or placebo (dont suppose placebo is needed)...at that point, have them record all of the different markers associated with muscle damage and repair, as well as cortisol levels, etc...then we'd have a good study, eh? i'll try to do some poking around throughout the day...good stuff though...

    hey Johan, i also had a thought last night...i havent checked the supplement forum, but do they have a "profile" section? i mean, if they dont, i nominate you to start it up, kinda like Hooker in the steroid forum...make up some profiles on all kinds of vitamins, minerals, herbs, supplements and their potential benefits/negatives...if ya had the time that is

    peace

    AM

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-Male
    damn, just got into the office, not sure how much time i'll have to go over all this today, since Saturdays are very busy on our car lot...anyhoo, from what i remember in the research i found yesterday, it did say that some studies showed benefit, others did not...ive always heard that 'megadoses' of vitamins were very harmful for a person, and that you should get all you need from a well-balanced, healthy diet...if for some reason, you have a defecit, i.e. sickness/illness, etc, then of course, supplementation is necessary...what i would be most interested in, and what i could not find yesterday, are the studies you referenced by Charles Pollquin (sp?)...those are probably what we need to go by, or find some that are done in this manner: group A = experienced bodybuilders in their 20s on a healthy, well-balanced diet, no steroids who receive a 'megadose' of Vitamin C alone (cuz most of the studies you and i have posted were done with vit. C and other antioxidants) after a typical workout, and group B (control) = same subjects who receive either nothing or placebo (dont suppose placebo is needed)...at that point, have them record all of the different markers associated with muscle damage and repair, as well as cortisol levels, etc...then we'd have a good study, eh? i'll try to do some poking around throughout the day...good stuff though...
    The thing is the medical comunity realy doesnt experiment with mega dosage of ascorbic acid. For what reason I have no clue. Only a few "pioneers" have done work on that. People like Linus Pauling(nobel price winner 2 times), irwing stone, Thomas Levy, Fred R Kleener(the dude who cured polio and other "uncurable" diseases with vitamin c). But "officialy" there is no benifit to mega dosage of ascorbic acid.

    This is a good read by Dr Levy about the medical communitys inability to accept vitamin c.
    http://www.tomlevymd.com/vcint.htm Give it a read.

    The pouliqin I mentioned. I dont think he has done any official studie but he mentiones on his website that he has seen alot of benifits from it and on t-muslce in a interview he talks aboiut how he got the idea and how amazing results mega dosage vitamin C done IV can have on bodycomposition. I didnt save the link but I will try to find it. I think it was in another thread I started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-Male
    hey Johan, i also had a thought last night...i havent checked the supplement forum, but do they have a "profile" section? i mean, if they dont, i nominate you to start it up, kinda like Hooker in the steroid forum...make up some profiles on all kinds of vitamins, minerals, herbs, supplements and their potential benefits/negatives...if ya had the time that is

    peace

    AM
    Im acctualy doing that I wrote something short on Vitamin A as my first adition but took it offline since I found I had included some wrong info. I will try and do "profiles" on all vitamins and important minerals but since I am a perfectionist it will take some time lol Vitamins are incredibly complex and it seems like they have so many different functions in the body that its insane to go in depth.

  19. #59
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    another thing that makes it so slow for me to write is that I realy dont know much about vitamins and minerals. So Im learning as I write. Im like teaching myself orthomolecular medicin in the process and thats why I do it since I want to know everything there is to know about disease prevention/curation and performacne enchanmetment by using naturaly occuring things.

  20. #60
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    from poiluqin
    TC: HA! Yep, I’ve noticed that! Hey, what were you telling me the other day about intravenous Vitamin C and insulin sensitivity and hyperbaric chambers?

    CP: Well, I got bit in the ass by a brown recluse spider and I got mono-like symptoms, and I never felt so bad in my life. I talked to one of my reps, and she referred me to a doctor in Denver and I went to see this guy who treated me with Vitamin C. First they confirmed that it was a brown recluse spider bite, and I was in danger, basically, of losing my butt cheek.

    I got treated with the Vitamin C and put in a hyperbaric chamber, and within 36 hours I was asymptomatic. I still had a lump of venom in there, and I kept doing the treatments and I got rid of the venom and all the effects.

    When you get bit by a brown recluse, you get necrotic fasciaitis, so people who get bit in the nose can lose their nose, people who get bit in the arm can lose their arm, etc, so by doing the super-high dose of Vitamin C—I was getting 180 grams twice a day–by IV, I was able to save my tissue.

    However, interestingly, the guy told me that he had to monitor my blood sugar every 20 minutes. He said that such a high dose of Vitamin C has a considerable glycemic response, so I actually had to drink a gallon of grape juice while getting this Vitamin C treatment because my blood sugar levels were just falling,

    However, after doing the Vitamin C, and despite ingesting so many carbs, I was actually leaner when I left the clinic!

    Then I went on-line and found the research that intravenous Vitamin C changes insulin sensitivity, so I started experimenting on myself. I was at 6% body fat when I started to do 180 grams of Vitamin C twice a week for a month, and I got down to 2.8% body fat without changing anything else. I asked the doctors on my staff to start using the procedure on my athletes and we figured out that in 4 weeks, we could get body composition changes in 4 weeks that we normally get in 10 weeks.

    TC: How did this tie in with the hyperbaric chamber?

    CP: The hyperbaric chamber was to treat the brown recluse bite, so if you do the IV while in the chamber, the IV is more efficient.

    For example, a while back, Milos Sarcev burned himself severely while making a movie. He had 3rd degree burns and looked like burned steak! He was supposed to have a skin graft and stay in the hospital a month, but one of my patients is the director of the burn center at Harvard, so he called the burn center in Arizona and told them to let me do whatever I want, so I gave Milos a shitload of antioxidants including Vitamin C and put him in the hyperbaric chamber. Two days after the treatment, he no longer needed a skin graft and he was released a week after.

    I now use it with athletes to improve recovery. It even improves brain function. I was amazed at how mentally sharp I was every time I did an IV in the chamber.

    http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=559121

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    Pharmacokinetic perspectives on megadoses of ascorbic acid
    J Blanchard, TN Tozer and M Rowland
    Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, College of Pharmacy, University of Arizona, Tucson, USA. BLANCHRD@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu

    Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is commonly used as a dietary supplement, often in megadoses. However, as the daily oral dose is increased, the concentration of ascorbic acid in the plasma and other body fluids does not increase proportionally, but instead tends to approach an upper limit. For example, when the daily dose is increased from 200 to 2500 mg (from 1.1 to 14.2 mmol) the mean steady state plasma concentration increases only from approximately 12 to 15 mg/L (from 68.1 to 85.2 mumol/L). Published data were reanalyzed with an integrated modeling approach to shed new quantitative light on this phenomenon. This analysis is based on the renal clearance of ascorbic acid, which rises sharply with increasing plasma concentrations as a result of saturable tubular reabsorption. The analysis indicates that both saturable gastrointestinal absorption and nonlinear renal clearance act additively to produce the ceiling effect in plasma concentrations. As a consequence of this ceiling effect, there is no pharmacokinetic justification for the use of megadoses of ascorbic acid.

    which basically means that your body, mainly your kidney, is having to work OVERTIME in order to filter the stuff out...this is why i think many argue against megadoses of any vitamins/minerals...

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    and this is DEFINITELY not good...

    Effect of megadoses of ascorbic acid on serum and urinary oxalate.

    Hatch M, Mulgrew S, Bourke E, Keogh B, Costello J.

    Serum and urinary oxalate was determined in 9 normal subjects, ingesting 8 g of ascorbic acid daily. Serum oxalate levels increased to 310% of control values during supplementation. Plasma ascrobate levels reached a mean value of 3.6 mg% far exceeding the previously reported plateau level of 1.8 mg%. Urinary oxalate gradually increased during ascorbate intake and 7 days post cessation of ascorbate, rose unexpectedly for all subjects into the hyperoxaluric range.

    in case you dont know what oxalate is...(i didnt, until i researched it )

    "Oxalate is an organic acid with the chemical formula of C204. At physiological pH levels, it forms a soluble salt with sodium and potassium; however, when combined with calcium, it produces an insoluble product termed calcium oxalate, which is the most common chemical compound found in kidney stones. If oxalate did not have a high affinity for calcium and if the calcium oxalate product was not of low solubility, there would be little interest in oxalate or oxalate metabolism. Urinary oxalate is the single strongest chemical promotor of kidney stone formation. Ounce for ounce, it is roughly 15-20 times more potent than excess urinary calcium"

  23. #63
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    well linus Pauling took 20grams/day for 40 years. he lived to be 93 and was in mint condition all the time. I have seen so many articles dispelling the dangers of vitamin c. Not to mention that we and monkeys are about the only animals that have lost the ability to produce vitamin c. If we produces as much as other animals we would produce 10-20g/day and twice that when stressed.

    check my other ascorbic acid thread it deals with some of the dangers like kidney stone

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    lol alpha man realy read my other thread before posting more

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    dont have the energy to once again pull out all the articles showing it DONT cause kidney stones. it acctualy can helt PREVENT them.

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    not to mentiuon the fact that the body need ALOT more vitamin c when under stress/sic. Like when curing polio klenner used something like 200g/day IV. When having a flue the bowel tollerance(a sign of any ascorbic acid passing through non oxidized)can increase 10 fold as a result of the extra free radicals the disease produces.
    Last edited by Kärnfysikern; 06-25-2005 at 12:46 PM.

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    bascily for oxalate to produce kidney stones the urine has to be at a certain PH. Ascorib acid supplementation makes sure the urine is below that so it cant happen. It doesnt matter that the urin oxalate is increased by 20 times. It just passes through

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    bro, honestly, i dont want to...ive seen that study on the marathon runners, and i look at it like this: who know how defecient their diets or bodies were in Vitamin C, and i think running a marathon is WAY more catabolic than a 45 minute workout with weights...i can also tell you this, my grandfather lived until the age of 89, and he drank massive amounts of Wild Turkey and smoked packs of cigarettes a day since he was in his early twenties...does that mean im gonna try and get away with the same thing? i can tell you for a fact, the last study i posted, not the kidney stone one, but the one before, should tell you how hard your organs are going to be working in order to keep your plasma levels of that vitamin at a certain level...and brother, THAT IS NOT GOOD! regardless of any other benefit, as long as your diet is clean, and maybe supplemented with a good Multi, i GUARANTEE your gains are not going to eclipse another bro who's training/eating/supplementing just as hard, simply cuz your OVERdosing yourself with a vitamin...so sorry, i guess im retracting my earlier statements, i really dont think megadoses of vitamins and minerals can be beneficial...but at least it will give me something to do, playing devil's advocate to all your posts oh, and another thing, ive personally known many bros get down to that kind of bf%, WITHOUT MEGADOSING VITAMINS, and i'm sure Swole knows a few as well...

    good luck, and peace...

    AM

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    lol belive me Im not saying it is required and I know of enough respected scientist and docs that say its safe. No where in your studie do they hint of organ damage. There is practicly no stress on the body by adding extra vitamin c.

    what do you think of poliquin and his oppinion. I mean he does afterall coach OLYMPIC ATHLETHES in another article by him he states that he feels vitamin c theraypy gives a 30% advantage over those that doesnt do it. I have posted that one in this forum as well.

    I wouldnt be so pro vitamin c if I didnt firmly belive its totaly safe and very benifical. Thats why I am experimenting with myself, since I know its safe.

    Sure one could get cut without it. So can you without clen , t-3, steroids , ephedra ect. But one other addition to the arselan is always good.

    Notice how poliquin got down from 6%bf to 2,8% bf without diet change simply because of vitamin c.

  31. #71
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    btw hooker thinks that vitamin c is as good as cytadren at lowering cortisol(read his cytadre profile) so Im not the only nutcase thinking it can be benifical

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    Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1993;67(5):426-30. Related Articles, Links


    Effect of antioxidant vitamin supplementation on muscle function after eccentric exercise.

    Jakeman P, Maxwell S.

    Applied Physiology Research Unit, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, UK.

    This study investigated the effects of antioxidant vitamin supplementation upon muscle contractile function following eccentric exercise and was performed double blind. Twenty-four physically active young subjects ingested either placebo (400 mg; n = 8), vitamin E (400 mg; n = 8) or vitamin C (400 mg; n = 8) for 21 days prior to and for 7 days after performing 60 min of box-stepping exercise. Contractile function of the triceps surae was assessed by the measurement of maximal voluntary contraction (MVC) and the ratio of the force generated at 20 Hz and 50 Hz tetanic stimulation before and after eccentric exercise and for 7 days during recovery. Following eccentric exercise, MVC decreased to 75 (4)% [mean (SE); n = 24; P < 0.05] of the preexercise values and the 20/50 Hz ratio of tetanic tension from 0.76 (0.01) to 0.49 (0.03) [mean (SE); n = 24; P < 0.05). Compared to the placebo group no significant changes in MVC were observed immediately post-exercise, though recovery of MVC in the first 24 h post-exercise was greater in the group supplemented with vitamin C. The decrease in 20/50 Hz ratio of tetanic tension was significantly less (P < 0.05) post-exercise and in the initial phase of recovery in subjects supplemented with vitamin C but not with vitamin E. These data suggest that prior vitamin C supplementation may exert a protective effect against eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 8299614 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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    Pain. 1992 Sep;50(3):317-21. Related Articles, Links


    An effect of ascorbic acid on delayed-onset muscle soreness.

    Kaminski M, Boal R.

    Division of Basic Sciences, Western States Chiropractic College, Portland, OR 97230.

    Delayed-onset muscle soreness following strenuous use of the posterior calf muscles was studied to determine if ascorbic acid might have an effect on the appearance of this familiar pain. A double-blind, randomized, crossover study compared the soreness in subjects taking ascorbic acid against those taking a lactose placebo. Visual analog scales were used in conjunction with a variety of pain-challenging methods, and the results indicated a significant difference between experimental and placebo groups at the height of soreness. Typical soreness abatement scores of 25-44% were observed. A sample size of 19, lack of an untreated control group as well as the singular nature of the exercise and its intensity were considered limitations of the study.

    Publication Types:
    Clinical Trial
    Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 1280803 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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    please, you know that last study is crap...but do me a favor, post, for me, the polquin studies PROVING that he went from 6% to 3% JUST by adding Vitamin C...sorry, but i call total bullshit on that...and that study for Vitamin C and MVC, dood, they were only taking 500mg, certainly not a megadose, and certainly an amount you can get from a healthy diet, and again, maximal voluntary contraction doesnt take anything such as previous workout history, current strength/conditioning, etc. into account, so honestly, i think that study is crap too...and as far as Hooker goes, i dont always count his word as automatic gold either, as he's well aware, and that study, again, was with marathon runners, not bodybuilders, and common sense leads me to believe that there is a difference...i dont think any LONGTERM studies have been done on the effects of megadoses on our organs, and that is the most important factor here...your liver or kidney just doesnt stop working over night my friend...

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    I have no clue why you are so dead set against this. Do a google search for Dr kleener and polio. Read Dr levy's books. Read Linus Paulings books. Nothing I say hold as much weight as the word of someone that has won not only one but 2 nobel prizes!!

    Read why Linus Pauling and Levy thinks we need WAY more vitamin c then the RDI. Today atleast I dont have the energy do debate this.

    Almost NO studies have been done on mega dosing. Only one I am familiar with is a studie mentioned in Paulings book where a doctor put alot of people on 5 or 10grams/Day for 4 years to se if they would get sic less often then the control group. go to the librabry and pic upp "vitamin c and the comon cold"

  36. #76
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    also the simpel fact that this is something not yet scientificly explored is what makes it fun. Megadosing of vitamin c is more or less unknown except by the few pioneers. I am trying to find out if it has any benifit for us bodybuilders. Poliquin seems to think so and atleast for me his words mean ALOT considering who he is and what he do for a living.

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    did you read that link I gave you in this thread to the first chapter of Dr Levy's book?

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    calm down guy, i'm just playing the oppostie side of the coin here...i'm not dead set against it, it's just that i havent seen any proof yet, at least nothing substantial...all i asked was if you could post Polquin's studies/articles for me, but i guess i'll do it myself...i thought, in a way, i was helping you, since you were thinking of posting about these things, i was under the impression you didnt want to be one-sided, and fail to present all aspects of it's usage...

  39. #79
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    lol sorry bro Im in a very bad mood today. Dont know why Im just pissed at everything and everyone today and have a horrible headaches. Its very fun debating I guess today just isnt a good day.

    apologies bro.


    Poliquin hasnt realy done any medicaly verified studie as far as I know. I have only read when he mentions his methods. I will dig upp the other one

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    here is the other article where he mentions vitamin c

    if there is anything else by him I havent found it either. Hooker mentions some other article but I cant find it.

    http://www.bodyofscience.com/issues/...5_poliquin.pdf

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