Experiment begins(ascorbic acid)

[Kärnfysikern]

btw you are helping me. This discussion today have show other things to me about vit c that I didnt even know about before

[Alpha-Male]

yeah, i just found that interview, i must admit, it sounds very intriguing, but until this guy publishes some hard evidence in a medical journal, i really have to call bullshit...but i'm going to continue to research as much as i can, to "assist" you in your posts...

[Kärnfysikern]

lol plz do btw thrower on this forum has seen this done and he can testify about the fat reductiuon from it. Check the anabolic lab forum and my thread "anyone comment on this page"

[Alpha-Male]

dood, didnt Poliquin use IVs for his studies? that's the difference here bro, cuz when you megadose orally, your plasma levels are never going to reach levels anywhere near to those of an IV administration...very interesting indeed!

[Alpha-Male]

i just found this...

Megadose of vitamin C delays insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults
CS Johnston and MF Yen
Department of Family Resources and Human Development, Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-2502.

The effect of a megadose of ascorbic acid (AA) on glucose and insulin responses after an oral-glucose-tolerance test (OGTT) is unknown. With a double-blind, placebo-controlled design, nine normoglycemic subjects (22 +/- 1 y, mean +/- SEM) consumed AA (2 g/d) or placebo for 2 wk after a 2-wk washout period with placebo, and an OGTT was performed after an overnight fast. This 4-wk protocol was repeated in a crossover fashion. Plasma glucose was significantly elevated 1-h postprandial in vitamin C-saturated subjects vs those taking a placebo. The plasma insulin response curve was shifted rightward in vitamin C-saturated subjects relative to baseline: plasma insulin was significantly depressed at 0.5 h postprandial but significantly elevated at 2 h postprandial. These data indicate that elevated plasma AA delays the insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults, thereby prolonging the postprandial hyperglycemia. These effects might be partially explained by the competitive inhibition of glucose transfer into pancreatic beta cells by high concentrations of circulating AA.

now after a workout, arent we trying to spike insulin levels? so wouldnt this be a negative?

[Kärnfysikern]

yes that does look/sound negative. hmmm

[Kärnfysikern]

I am begining to think that post workout isnt a good time to take ascorbic acid. Maby its better to spread it out over the rest of the day

[Kärnfysikern]

here is by the way a studie about vitamin c and flu that I like

The effectiveness of vitamin C in preventing and relieving the symptoms of virus-induced respiratory infections.

Gorton HC, Jarvis K.

BACKGROUND: An ever increasing demand to evaluate the effect of dietary supplements on specific health conditions by use of a "significant scientific" standard has prompted the publication of this study. OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of megadose Vitamin C in preventing and relieving cold and flu symptoms in a test group compared with a control group. DESIGN: Prospective, controlled study of students in a technical training facility. SUBJECTS: A total of 463 students ranging in age from 18 to 32 years made up the control group. A total of 252 students ranging in age from 18 to 30 years made up the experimental or test group. METHOD: Investigators tracked the number of reports of cold and flu symptoms among the 1991 test population of the facility compared with the reports of like symptoms among the 1990 control population. Those in the control population reporting symptoms were treated with pain relievers and decongestants, whereas those in the test population reporting symptoms were treated with hourly doses of 1000 mg of Vitamin C for the first 6 hours and then 3 times daily thereafter. Those not reporting symptoms in the test group were also administered 1000-mg doses 3 times daily. RESULTS: Overall, reported flu and cold symptoms in the test group decreased 85% compared with the control group after the administration of megadose Vitamin C. CONCLUSION: Vitamin C in megadoses administered before or after the appearance of cold and flu symptoms relieved and prevented the symptoms in the test population compared with the control group.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 10543583 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Kärnfysikern]

Its strange that the insulin peak was delayed. I mean how the **** can that happen? Dont understand the mechanism.

I know vit c increases insulin sensitivity. But that shouldnt delay the peak

Taehan Kanho Hakhoe Chi. 2003 Apr;33(2):170-8. Related Articles, Links


[Effect of vitamin C supplementation on blood sugar and antioxidative status in types II diabetes mellitus patients]

[Article in Korean]

Park HS, Lee YM.

Department of Nursing, College of Medicine, Pusan National University, Korea.

PURPOSE: This study was to determine the effect of oral vitamin C supplements on blood sugar and antioxidative status in Types II diabetes mellitus patients. METHOD: Data for the study were collected from June 24 to August 31, 2001. Participants(31) took 1 g/day vitamin C for 4 weeks, after a 1 - week taking no Vitamin C, followed by Vitamin C 3 g/day for 4 weeks. A baseline blood sample was obtained following a 12 hour overnight fast and at the end of each 4 week Vitamin C administration. Blood samples were taken for plasma vitamin C concentration, fasting blood sugar, HbA1c, superoxide scavenging activity and hydrogen peroxide scavenging activity. The data were analyzed by SPSS for repeated measures ANOVA. RESULT: Plasma vitamin C concentration was significantly increased over dose(F=3.316, p=.043). Fasting blood sugar and HbA1c was significantly decreased over dose(F=13.192, p=.000; F=11.995, p=.000). Superoxide scavenging activity and hydrogen peroxide scavenging activity was significantly increased over dose(F=486.138, p=.000; F=177.704, p=.000). CONCLUSION: The results suggest that megadose vitamin C supplementation may have a beneficial effect in diabetes mellitus patients on both glycemic control and antioxidant status. Thus dietary measures to increase plasma vitamin C may be an important health strategy for reducing the compliance of diabetic patients.

PMID: 15314445 [PubMed]

[Alpha-Male]

Its strange that the insulin peak was delayed. I mean how the **** can that happen? Dont understand the mechanism.

I know vit c increases insulin sensitivity. But that shouldnt delay the peak

Taehan Kanho Hakhoe Chi. 2003 Apr;33(2):170-8. Related Articles, Links


[Effect of vitamin C supplementation on blood sugar and antioxidative status in types II diabetes mellitus patients]

[Article in Korean]

Park HS, Lee YM.

Department of Nursing, College of Medicine, Pusan National University, Korea.

PURPOSE: This study was to determine the effect of oral vitamin C supplements on blood sugar and antioxidative status in Types II diabetes mellitus patients. METHOD: Data for the study were collected from June 24 to August 31, 2001. Participants(31) took 1 g/day vitamin C for 4 weeks, after a 1 - week taking no Vitamin C, followed by Vitamin C 3 g/day for 4 weeks. A baseline blood sample was obtained following a 12 hour overnight fast and at the end of each 4 week Vitamin C administration. Blood samples were taken for plasma vitamin C concentration, fasting blood sugar, HbA1c, superoxide scavenging activity and hydrogen peroxide scavenging activity. The data were analyzed by SPSS for repeated measures ANOVA. RESULT: Plasma vitamin C concentration was significantly increased over dose(F=3.316, p=.043). Fasting blood sugar and HbA1c was significantly decreased over dose(F=13.192, p=.000; F=11.995, p=.000). Superoxide scavenging activity and hydrogen peroxide scavenging activity was significantly increased over dose(F=486.138, p=.000; F=177.704, p=.000). CONCLUSION: The results suggest that megadose vitamin C supplementation may have a beneficial effect in diabetes mellitus patients on both glycemic control and antioxidant status. Thus dietary measures to increase plasma vitamin C may be an important health strategy for reducing the compliance of diabetic patients.

PMID: 15314445 [PubMed]

well, it lowered blood glucose in a type II diabetic (who is hypreglycemic and whose pancreas is working overtime to produce more and more insulin), so wouldnt that suggest that i would lower insulin as well?

[Kärnfysikern]

yes but so does R-ala, cinnamon, metformin to mention a few. I dont think it would delay the insulin peak just make the peak lower.

Lowering insulin isnt a bad thing aslong as insulin sensitivity is going upp. But delaying the peak I cant figure that out

[Alpha-Male]

[QUOTE=johan]. I dont think it would delay the insulin peak just make the peak lower.

QUOTE]

exactly, so taking any of those post workout wouldnt be recommended, right?

[Kärnfysikern]

are you talking about things that increases insulin sensitivity? In that case they are benificial since they increase the cells ability to respond to insulin so less insulin is needed for the same effect?

if you mean the delayed peak Im guessing it would be a bad thing pwo but maby some mechanism is at work here that I dont understand. I would have to know if other slin sensitivity boosters also delay insulin peaks.

[Alpha-Male]

increased insulin sensitivity = less insulin needed = suppression/delay???

[Kärnfysikern]

if insulin sensitivity becomes higher the body will release less insulin yes. Thats why metformin works to keep non insulin dependant diabetes at check since it lowers the stress on the pancrea by allowing it to lower production. But is this what you are asking?

I dont think the peak will be delayed by increase insulin sensitivity. Not as far as I know. It must be something happening only with vitamin c.

[Kärnfysikern]

this one doesnt deal with megadosage of vitamin c but shows how important good levels of vitamin c is for us

J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Jun;24(3):158-65. Related Articles, Links


Strategies for healthy weight loss: from vitamin C to the glycemic response.

Johnston CS.

Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University East, 7001 E. Williams Field Rd., Mesa, AZ 85212, USA. [email protected]

America is experiencing a major obesity epidemic. The ramifications of this epidemic are immense since obesity is associated with chronic metabolic abnormalities such as insulin resistance, dyslipidemia, and heart disease. Reduced physical activity and/or increased energy intakes are important factors in this epidemic. Additionally, a genetic susceptibility to obesity is associated with gene polymorphisms affecting biochemical pathways that regulate fat oxidation, energy expenditure, or energy intake. However, these pathways are also impacted by specific foods and nutrients. Vitamin C status is inversely related to body mass. Individuals with adequate vitamin C status oxidize 30% more fat during a moderate exercise bout than individuals with low vitamin C status; thus, vitamin C depleted individuals may be more resistant to fat mass loss. Food choices can impact post-meal satiety and hunger. High-protein foods promote postprandial thermogenesis and greater satiety as compared to high-carbohydrate, low-fat foods; thus, diet regimens high in protein foods may improve diet compliance and diet effectiveness. Vinegar and peanut ingestion can reduce the glycemic effect of a meal, a phenomenon that has been related to satiety and reduced food consumption. Thus, the effectiveness of regular exercise and a prudent diet for weight loss may be enhanced by attention to specific diet details.

PMID: 15930480 [PubMed - in process]

[Alpha-Male]

yeah, i'm sure that low status of any vitamin can be detrimental to anyone, especially those of us looking to stay healthy and build muscle...damn, all this research is giving me a headache...i must admit, ive only taken A&P I and II, so i'm def. no expert on metabolism/endocrinology, so i dont have a very firm grasp on alot of this stuff either...but i do enjoy learning...keep it up bro...

[Kärnfysikern]

lol my head is hurting to. Im learning all these terms as we are talking. GLUT-4, ROS, **** all those things I had no clue what they where before today

[Kärnfysikern]

Did a chest/delt/tri/back today. I am the most self critical person in existance but today I looked "denser" then usual. I cant explain it any other way. Not more ripped, not more vascular just a harder, denser more solid look. Might be in my head also. Anyway was a good workout. Hopefully I will be able to hit the iron good again after all the injuries. My damn tailbone is still a bit ****ed upp though.

[Kärnfysikern]

migth imagine the look though I guess

[IronFreakX]

how much are u using rite now?

[Kärnfysikern]

15grams day. Gonna take 20grams today and se if it exceeds bowel tollerance. zipping on 5 grams right now

[IronFreakX]

Ive been taking bout 10 grams a day the last week....I feel fvcking good!!! wanna up it to 20-30 grams
and theyre gonna be getting the IM or IV soon im gonna try 30g like the poliquin dude!!

[Kärnfysikern]

with oral use increase slowely. sooner or later you will get to the point where you get diharrea and anything above that (oraly) is a waste.

[Kärnfysikern]

and plz when you do the im or iv tell someone to keep an eye for you. you can go hyploglycemic. Make sure to ask them what ph the solution is. If its below 5 I wouldnt use it to be honest.

[IronFreakX]

Im not sure theyll know what to do
what should they do?? if i faint or smth....??

[Kärnfysikern]

well you should make sure to zip on some kind of juice or a dextrose drink or something like that all the time so you have a steady flow of carbs. If you do faint I have no ****ing clue. a glucagon shot would be used by pharamedics along with a glucose drip. Not that I think it can cause that severe and rapid hypoglycemia but since I dont know much about this I dont dare to give any advice realy.

[Kärnfysikern]

I can now to 100% verify that its possible to go a bit hypo with vitamin c.

I have taken 20grams of vitamin c today. 5grams during breakfast, 5grams in a shake as my third meal, 5grams 1 hour before workout and 5 grams 45 minutes post workout. I am now slightely hypo but just took a bit of dextrose to compensate. I didnt eat any carbs pre workout but took 100g dextrose post workout and 30grams of oatmeal ppwo. Doesnt seem like that is enough for me.

Vitamin c at these dosages must boost insulin sensitivity ALOT. I have tried metformin, r-ala, cinnamon, vanadyl. All those things that boost slin sensitivity often in combination and neither of them gives me hypo signs like vitamin c at high dosage.

If I wasnt living alone I would find out if its possible to get real bad hypo from vit c but I dont want to risk it now when living alone. I feel now like I would after maby 6-7 IU of slin and beeing late for my ppwo meal.

Also for some reason I dont feel ANY hypo signs from vitamin c on rest days even when I eat less then 20g carbs/day so Im curious about 2 things now.

1. Either I need to get upp to around 20g to feel this since I havent taken more then 15 g max on a rest day

OR

2. Somehow workingout makes the slin sensitivity bosting effect of vitamin c alot more pronounced. But why and how in that case?

I will find out by taking 20+grams on my next rest day.

If writing odd or anything now its because of the hypo it always makes me nervous, jittery and gives me a headache.

[dazbo]

I am begining to think that post workout isnt a good time to take ascorbic acid. Maby its better to spread it out over the rest of the day

Hmmmmm.............Did I not say this in post number 25 and number 28 ???

[Kärnfysikern]

yes but the later studies where more convincing I just dont trust fully those kinds of articles anymore

But I am still not convinced and I am not sure if the cortisol lowering effect would be greater and still make it more anabolic then catabolic. Something I will have to find out by experimenting with myself. To bad Dr Levy never answered my e-mail.

[Alpha-Male]

Megadose of vitamin C delays insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults
CS Johnston and MF Yen
Department of Family Resources and Human Development, Arizona State University, Tempe 85287-2502.

The effect of a megadose of ascorbic acid (AA) on glucose and insulin responses after an oral-glucose-tolerance test (OGTT) is unknown. With a double-blind, placebo-controlled design, nine normoglycemic subjects (22 +/- 1 y, mean +/- SEM) consumed AA (2 g/d) or placebo for 2 wk after a 2-wk washout period with placebo, and an OGTT was performed after an overnight fast. This 4-wk protocol was repeated in a crossover fashion. Plasma glucose was significantly elevated 1-h postprandial in vitamin C-saturated subjects vs those taking a placebo. The plasma insulin response curve was shifted rightward in vitamin C-saturated subjects relative to baseline: plasma insulin was significantly depressed at 0.5 h postprandial but significantly elevated at 2 h postprandial. These data indicate that elevated plasma AA delays the insulin response to a glucose challenge in normoglycemic adults, thereby prolonging the postprandial hyperglycemia. These effects might be partially explained by the competitive inhibition of glucose transfer into pancreatic beta cells by high concentrations of circulating AA.

this is a previous post, but is in response to the low blood sugar...as far as spreading it out, i dont think that matters, at least according to this study...

[Kärnfysikern]

Yupp remember that one from our discussion.
That studie realy doesnt mention any increase in insulin sensitivity if I read it right. Just a delay of the insulin peak.
I have read other stuff about its effect on insulin sensitivity though. I just didnt think it would be THAT noticable at 20grams/Day.

But it makes sense that aa can compete with glucose on receptor sites since a high carb diet is known to do the same with aa. Glucose and aa is very closely related chemicaly and aa is even transported by the different glut's if I understand most of what I have read so far.

[Alpha-Male]

i've pulled some studies that mention it's insulin sensitivity-increasing effects, but i cannot view the full-text of the article without paying...and that aint gonna happen...guess i'll keep searchin'

[Kärnfysikern]

let me se the abstracts. I can probably get them through the university

[Alpha-Male]

naw, there just small excerpts when i google (scholar)...i cant even see the abstracts...just type in "megadoses ascorbic acid insulin sensitivity" and see if you can view more...

[Kärnfysikern]

weill have to ask the uni library first how to acess all that and if the uni pays or if I have to pay(since Im not doing anything medicin related maby they wont allow me to se everything).

I atleast have axess to a IMENSE volume of book through the uni library internet service its like thousdans of books about nutrition, medicin ect. A gold mine.

[Kärnfysikern]

morning weight today 89kg. I have lost one kg(2,2ibs) compered to the begining of last week

My tailbones is still ****ed so no leg training for me god damn it.

[co2boi]

Right now Im chugging down around 2 grams of askorbic acid in 1,5 liters of water and then Il head for the gym(on a empty stomach). I now have 2 post workout shakes

That's pretty hardcore bro. Askorbic acid is used for developing photos

[IronFreakX]

took 4 grams b4 bed...effervecent tabs
took 6grams 2day
3 with first meal 3 with second
going to the gym in a little over an hour
feeling pumped.....
also took 1000mcg b-12 IM on saturday
will probably take another one real soon
VITAMINS ARE THE SHIT!!!!!

[dazbo]

Just wondering, what are your oppinions on using a lot of Vit C (say above 3g daily) whilst taking orals in order to protect the liver and kidneys ?? After all, thats one of the positives about it - how it flushs them out and all the other anti-oxidant effects. What do you think is better - milk thistle, or vit c at this job ??

The reason why I ask, is, Ive seen a study stating that milk thistle did little help in protecting the liver, although I cant find this now!!!