clean bulking question

[lc1987]

aight i am finishing up cutting this week. i am currently started at around 14-15% i think 3 weeks ago and now i am 12% bf i beleive, and i would like to start clean bulking. the question is, if i do everything right, no cheat days, would i still be cutting fat because i am adding lean body mass?

[ascendant]

whoa bro, you still got more to lose. before bulking, you gotta at least drop below the double digits on bf%. why are you stopping your cutting at 12%?

as far as cutting while adding lean body mass, most likely not gonna happen. not sure of your training experience, mainly cause you haven't filled out your profile *hint hint*, but you need to know exactly how many calories you'd need daily based on your weight and bf% and go just high enough that you can gain lean mass but not gain fat.

it's a very individualized thing, so nobody can give you those numbers. you have to experiment, which means numerous bulking and cutting phases before you learn what works for you. i've also learned personally though that when trying to bulk, if you try to keep from putting on fat, it also makes it much harder to gain the lean mass and it will build slower. that's why i drop my fat significantly when cutting. gives me a lot of "space" to work with when i bulk, so i put on some bf%, but i make very fast gains as well from all the extra nutrients i'm getting.

if i were you, i'd keep cutting up for at least a few more weeks and try to get down to at least 8-9%bf. once there, then very gradually increase your calories till you're getting the results you want. again, no one can give you the answers as to how many calories, but there is a calculator tool for a generalized amount (and trust me, it's very generalized) that you can find in one of the stickies in here.

[lc1987]

whoa bro, you still got more to lose. before bulking, you gotta at least drop below the double digits on bf%. why are you stopping your cutting at 12%?

as far as cutting while adding lean body mass, most likely not gonna happen. not sure of your training experience, mainly cause you haven't filled out your profile *hint hint*, but you need to know exactly how many calories you'd need daily based on your weight and bf% and go just high enough that you can gain lean mass but not gain fat.

it's a very individualized thing, so nobody can give you those numbers. you have to experiment, which means numerous bulking and cutting phases before you learn what works for you. i've also learned personally though that when trying to bulk, if you try to keep from putting on fat, it also makes it much harder to gain the lean mass and it will build slower. that's why i drop my fat significantly when cutting. gives me a lot of "space" to work with when i bulk, so i put on some bf%, but i make very fast gains as well from all the extra nutrients i'm getting.

if i were you, i'd keep cutting up for at least a few more weeks and try to get down to at least 8-9%bf. once there, then very gradually increase your calories till you're getting the results you want. again, no one can give you the answers as to how many calories, but there is a calculator tool for a generalized amount (and trust me, it's very generalized) that you can find in one of the stickies in here.

well, i had a cutting journal and i posted some pics up. a lot of people suggested that i should just clean bulk because i need some more mass. last winter was the first time i bulk ever. i added some bf but at least i added definition and size. so some people said that i am not holding a lot of fat so i should just start clean bulking to add more size while decreasing bf because of adding lbm. i'll try to dig my log because i abandoned it because no one was actually reading it lol.

[ascendant]

well if you could fill out your stats, that's much easier to find than a log in a thread somewhere. filling in your stats will help others to help you. until i saw where you're at age wise, weight, height, etc, there's not much else i can do for you at this point.

[lc1987]

well i'll just post my pic here so you could see where i'm at. this is last weeks pic
my parents went on a vacation with the camera so i don't have current ones.

this is the first time i bulk ever and i don't think i did bad at all. i use to have no definition what so ever it was just plain ugly. the duration of the bulk was like i think 2 1/2 to 3 months something like that. well here it is

[lc1987]

and oh yeah when i said i was 12% that was a total guess. i just asked my friend of what he thought where i was at and he said somewhere around 12% but i seriously started at around 14-15% though. i'll try to get the real bf by friday when i come over to my buddy's house because he has the calipers.

[Undecided09]

I'd like to see ur before pics, not a ton of LEAN BODY MASS and MUSCLE DEVELOPMENT...When you cut was it mostly cardio? forgive me if uve gone over this I didnt read the long ass post...

[ascendant]

bro, you're much lower than 12%. i'd guess more around 8% or so. yea, you're good to start bulking up. you have all the info you need above, just go to the sticky with the calorie calculator to get you started and whatever your maintenance amount for caloric intake is, boost up over that by about 500 calories to start, then gradually increase from there depending on your results.

you do definitely need to focus on bulking now rather than cutting up. good luck man and let the force-feeding begin!

[lc1987]

yeah man i will fill in that profile i didn't really pay attention to that.

[lc1987]

so if i clean bulk and do it right, would i stay at the same bf or decrease a lil? i don't wanna gain any more fat because of the summer and everything you know.

[lc1987]

I'd like to see ur before pics, not a ton of LEAN BODY MASS and MUSCLE DEVELOPMENT...When you cut was it mostly cardio? forgive me if uve gone over this I didnt read the long ass post...

yeah but i ran instead of the 60-70% heart rate rule because i needed to keep on running for the seals. so i guess i lost a lot of muscles as well but i need to train for the seal man. and yeah i know i need to build up mass that's why i wanted to clean bulk.....

[Undecided09]

well to answer ur BF question, yes ur BF is going to go back up, anytime carbs are brought back into the equation, despite what kind of carbs they are, your bf is going to go up because some fat will be retained...And carbs will be brought back to clean bulk because you can't bulk without getitng your calories high, and you can't get ur cals high without carbs...But the clean bulk will be determined by the kind of carbs you take in, amount of carbs, amount of fat, quality of fat, cardio done, and total cals (however I'm not as big on calorie counting as I am with type of calories taken in...that to me determines what kind of training you are doing, and when you cut carbs/increase carbs, as well as fat, the amount of calories takes care of itself)..

[lc1987]

well to answer ur BF question, yes ur BF is going to go back up, anytime carbs are brought back into the equation, despite what kind of carbs they are, your bf is going to go up because some fat will be retained...And carbs will be brought back to clean bulk because you can't bulk without getitng your calories high, and you can't get ur cals high without carbs...But the clean bulk will be determined by the kind of carbs you take in, amount of carbs, amount of fat, quality of fat, cardio done, and total cals (however I'm not as big on calorie counting as I am with type of calories taken in...that to me determines what kind of training you are doing, and when you cut carbs/increase carbs, as well as fat, the amount of calories takes care of itself)..

aight here's the thing, i am planning on cusouming about 220g of carbs coming strictly from oats and wheat bagel. also about 70g of fat coming from flax and natty pb and about 250-270 grams of pro. i am 5'6 about 160 and according to ascendant i am about 8% or so bf. im not sure if i should do a high intensity cardio or the 60-75 max heart rate rule. but i am planning on doing cardio at least 3x a week though.

[1buffsob]

well to answer ur BF question, yes ur BF is going to go back up, anytime carbs are brought back into the equation, despite what kind of carbs they are, your bf is going to go up because some fat will be retained...And carbs will be brought back to clean bulk because you can't bulk without getitng your calories high, and you can't get ur cals high without carbs...But the clean bulk will be determined by the kind of carbs you take in, amount of carbs, amount of fat, quality of fat, cardio done, and total cals (however I'm not as big on calorie counting as I am with type of calories taken in...that to me determines what kind of training you are doing, and when you cut carbs/increase carbs, as well as fat, the amount of calories takes care of itself)..

Where do you get off saying something like that? You sound like Dr. Atkins.

Carbs are your friend. Forget all the public, low-carb BS. You need high quality carbs to grow, it's that simple. It's typical to gain some fat when bulking, however there are exceptions. If your diet is on point, you can keep bf% from increasing (notice I say bf%, not fat in general). Of course, the introduction of aas, makes for more exceptions. But we're discussing a natty bulk.

lc1987, if your diet is perfect, you should have nothing to worry about. But it's going to take some trial and error on your part to figure out what's perfect for you. If you find fat gains are coming, put in some a.m. cardio. If it's still a problem, play around with the macros.

1buffsob

[Undecided09]

BF is going to go up when Bulking period...And I'm not Dr. Atkins...I'm just saying that carbs are converted to glycogen and if unused during the day or exercise, then get stored as fat, very easy for this to happen, so thus when bulking, even if it is a clean bulk, when the carbs are higher than normal this is much more likely...

[lc1987]

Where do you get off saying something like that? You sound like Dr. Atkins.

Carbs are your friend. Forget all the public, low-carb BS. You need high quality carbs to grow, it's that simple. It's typical to gain some fat when bulking, however there are exceptions. If your diet is on point, you can keep bf% from increasing (notice I say bf%, not fat in general). Of course, the introduction of aas, makes for more exceptions. But we're discussing a natty bulk.

lc1987, if your diet is perfect, you should have nothing to worry about. But it's going to take some trial and error on your part to figure out what's perfect for you. If you find fat gains are coming, put in some a.m. cardio. If it's still a problem, play around with the macros.

1buffsob

thanks bro. yeah i really don't wanna gain a lot of fat or better yet no fat at all. i don't care if it's like a slow gain it's summer anyways and i shouldn't be bulking.i am gonna shoot for 220g of carbs

[1buffsob]

That's a good amount to start with. Like I said, it'll take some trial and error on your part. I too prefer somewhat of slow gains, as long as they're lean. Personally, I'd rather be lean bulking for 5 months than cutting for 3.

1buffsob

[Undecided09]

Keep the Carbs Complex Too!!! Post Lift some Sugar is ok, and a lil in the morning, other than that spread em out throughout the day and keep em complex!! that should minimize fat gains and maximize a "lean bulk"

[lc1987]

the carbs that i'm gonna be getting is strictly from oats and wheat bagel. wheat bagel is used pwo but oats throughout the day cuz i just love oats. i could eat it for the rest of the day!

[lc1987]

oh and some skim milk for the oats but not a lot maybe a cup or 2 a day

[lc1987]

That's a good amount to start with. Like I said, it'll take some trial and error on your part. I too prefer somewhat of slow gains, as long as they're lean. Personally, I'd rather be lean bulking for 5 months than cutting for 3.

1buffsob

yeah man i really dislike cutting. i always feel hungry for some reason.

[1buffsob]

Finally, Giants11 is here to set the carb debate straight

1buffsob

[Undecided09]

the carbs that i'm gonna be getting is strictly from oats and wheat bagel. wheat bagel is used pwo but oats throughout the day cuz i just love oats. i could eat it for the rest of the day!

I like oats alot too!!! I could eat em all day, Regular flavor oats are pretty brutal though! IF you can get your hands on "Muscle Milk 'n' Oats" I would..30 grams of protein 34 grams of carbs, 4 GRAMS OF SUGAR!! Not to bad... Whole Wheat bread too!!

[lc1987]

I like oats alot too!!! I could eat em all day, Regular flavor oats are pretty brutal though! IF you can get your hands on "Muscle Milk 'n' Oats" I would..30 grams of protein 34 grams of carbs, 4 GRAMS OF SUGAR!! Not to bad... Whole Wheat bread too!!

dude i love regular oats that's what i eat!!!! here's what i do, oats skim milk splenda and then eat it straight up without cooking and and it's the best food while cutting or bulking.

[Undecided09]

No shit, well ur one step ahead of the game if u like to eat that shit!!! hahaha, more power to ya, if you can keep that going and increase the intake of those complex carbs during bulking I think you should see nice results, obviously along with some healthy fat, high protein intake, and some solid lifting...

[Venum]

why does someone have to be under 10% bf to do a clean bulk?

[Superballer]

^^^ curious as to this as well.... I'm down to about 13-14% and am thinking of clean bulking again... I hate muscle loss and feeling little.