The "post workout window" myth

[Kärnfysikern]

Most mags seems to always claim that eating RIGHT after your workout is crucial otherwise you will somehow miss out on alot of muscle building or possibly not gain anything at all.

Well here is something that dismantles that idea..This also shows the importance of pre workout meal!!

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/10/3219S

In the experiments described above the amino acids ± glucose were given after exercise. No difference in response was observed when EAA + glucose were given at 1 versus 3 h after exercise (24 ). Similarly, when the same mixture was given immediately after exercise the response of MPS was the same as when given 1 h after exercise (25 ). However, when the EAA/glucose mixture was given immediately before exercise the response was greatly amplified. Not only was the increase during exercise approximately fourfold above the basal value, the response in the first hour after exercise was just as large as the response over the same time interval when the supplement was given immediately after exercise (Fig. 5 ). When total area under the curve was calculated, the response was approximately threefold greater when the drink was given after exercise than at rest, and approximately double the response as when ingested after exercise (25 ).

Offcourse giantz has been preaching for this for quite some time . Just chimming in some more info

[Kärnfysikern]

more. Cant give a link since it is a pay to view article that I can acess through my university.

It might be expected that ingesting amino acids prior to exercise would be beneficial because the uptake of amino acids by muscle is proportionate to delivery, and the proportion of blood flow to muscle increases during exercise. An increased net uptake of EAAs translates to increased muscle protein synthesis. We found this to be the case, because a mixture of 6 g EAAs + 35 g glucose given immediately before exercise resulted in a greater stimulation of net muscle protein balance than when it was given either immediately or 1 h after exercise (15). Interestingly, not only was the net uptake of amino acids greater during the exercise period (when only the group given amino acids before exercise had received anything), but the response was also greater in the first hour after exercise than was the first hour response of subjects who were given the supplement immediately after exercise.

[slimsc]

wow... cant wait to read the follow ups...

[gymrat12345]

both pre and post are equally important imo

[Kärnfysikern]

I still recomend eating quickly pwo offcourse because it makes it easier to squese in several meals that day. But if you happen to forget your shake the workout is surely not ruined in anyway. The workout itself lowers catabolism.

[Giants11]

That study is a good one. However it does not reflect the effect of cortisol. Which is why you need food I believe at least within one hour.

However my main point or myth so to speak is that you need to spike insulin to drive nutrients into cells and stop cortisol. Cortisol is reduced rather easily by just eating so that is moot point IMO. Also insulin does not elevate MPS in physilogical ranges in the PWO timeframe. However I'm done with debating with people, people are gonna believe what they want to believe.

If someone would like to debate this isse its fine by me.

[novastepp]

i have a large article written by either Dave Tate or Ian King... i can't remember. it's a great read completely and of course a few things he says some don't practice or believe, but i highlighted in blue the part that would correlate to this thread and i will also copy and paste the highlighted part for those who are too lazy to skim the article to find it

"Stimulation of protein synthetic pathway - Below, I've listed values for protein synthesis under different treatment conditions. Each percent increase is relative to fasting baseline values.

Insulin Treatment - 50% higher
Amino Acid Infusion - 150% higher
24 Hours Post-Exercise - 100% higher
Amino Acids Immediately Post-Exercise - 200% higher
Amino Acids and Carbohydrate Immediately Post-Exercise - 350% higher
Amino Acids and Carbohydrate Given Immediately Pre-Exercise - 400% higher

It should be obvious that pre- and post-workout drinks dramatically stimulate protein synthesis."

[Kärnfysikern]

That study is a good one. However it does not reflect the effect of cortisol. Which is why you need food I believe at least within one hour.

However my main point or myth so to speak is that you need to spike insulin to drive nutrients into cells and stop cortisol. Cortisol is reduced rather easily by just eating so that is moot point IMO. Also insulin does not elevate MPS in physilogical ranges in the PWO timeframe. However I'm done with debating with people, people are gonna believe what they want to believe.

If someone would like to debate this isse its fine by me.

Yeah within a hour defenetly. I just hate it when people run around thinking they have ruined there workout if they dont get a shake within 15 minutes. A myth that most major mags seems all to anxious to keep alive.

How would the effects of the cortisol show itself? as a decrease in protein synthesis or a increase in muscle protein breakdown??

[Kärnfysikern]

i have a large article written by either Dave Tate or Ian King... i can't remember. it's a great read completely and of course a few things he says some don't practice or believe, but i highlighted in blue the part that would correlate to this thread and i will also copy and paste the highlighted part for those who are too lazy to skim the article to find it

"Stimulation of protein synthetic pathway - Below, I've listed values for protein synthesis under different treatment conditions. Each percent increase is relative to fasting baseline values.

Insulin Treatment - 50% higher
Amino Acid Infusion - 150% higher
24 Hours Post-Exercise - 100% higher
Amino Acids Immediately Post-Exercise - 200% higher
Amino Acids and Carbohydrate Immediately Post-Exercise - 350% higher
Amino Acids and Carbohydrate Given Immediately Pre-Exercise - 400% higher

It should be obvious that pre- and post-workout drinks dramatically stimulate protein synthesis."

Looks good Il try to read it tomorrow

[Giants11]

Yeah within a hour defenetly. I just hate it when people run around thinking they have ruined there workout if they dont get a shake within 15 minutes. A myth that most major mags seems all to anxious to keep alive.

How would the effects of the cortisol show itself? as a decrease in protein synthesis or a increase in muscle protein breakdown??

Cortisol in this case would basically just be proteolysis.

[novastepp]

Giants11, could that protein ever be taken back and reapsorbed by the muscle? or is it gone?

[MatrixGuy]

I usually have a pro/fat meal pre workout. Should i be changing to pro/carb?

[spittin' 'n cussin']

what the hell does "response" mean? how is this "response" measured? does response mean muscles getting bigger and stronger? how do they know? what kind of genetics do the test subjects have? if a pro/dex shake doesnt do anything why does almost EVERYONE do it? just wondering this stuff.

[novastepp]

what the hell does "response" mean? how is this "response" measured? does response mean muscles getting bigger and stronger? how do they know? what kind of genetics do the test subjects have? if a pro/dex shake doesnt do anything why does almost EVERYONE do it? just wondering this stuff.

if you read the article it tells you what they mean and how they did everything.

[novastepp]

Johan, wouldn't it depend on the kind of carbohydrate used? i would think the absorption would be different if dextrose were used instead of say oats or potatoes... just a thought.

[chest6]

Interesting...thats why I love my preworkout pro/carb meals. I've noticed a huge difference since I starting doing it. On days I do PWO cardio more than 30mins..I see a shake pointless..at that point I'd just eat when I got home..

[DNoMac]

What amounts of aminos and carbs are proposed? Would it be wise to split it up evenly before and after? Or maybe a 2:1 ratio before to after. Seems like it is def more beneficial (as far as MPS) to have the aminos and glucose before, but to blunt the effects of cortisol afterwards seems equally important.

I will definitely experiment with this theory a little more. Typically, I've been consuming an apple or oats, and lean protein source prior, but nothing like a pro/dextrose shake.

[slimsc]

i think on non cardio days i will drink half my pro/carb drink before and half after w/o... My bulk "bcaa" should be here today, and i will be adding that pre w/o too...

[Kärnfysikern]

what the hell does "response" mean? how is this "response" measured? does response mean muscles getting bigger and stronger? how do they know? what kind of genetics do the test subjects have? if a pro/dex shake doesnt do anything why does almost EVERYONE do it? just wondering this stuff.

Respons on MPS means the respons on muscle protein synthesis. The response in this case is a increase,

The response is measured by phenylalanine levels.

Individual genetics doesnt realy make a difference. All our bodies respond is just about the same way to things like this fortunaly.

The things I have posted acctualy do show that a pro/dex shake does alot. It just doesnt matter that much if you hit it imidietly pwo or say 2 hours after your workout. The effect it has on protein synthesis is the same regardles of timing(disregarding cortisol like giantz mentioned).
It also shows that having the same drink pre workout gives both a increase in muscle protein synthesis during the workout AND the same increase post workout as if you had had the shake pwo. So you get synthesis during workout+synthesis pwo with that one shake.

Hope that answeres the questions

[Kärnfysikern]

I usually have a pro/fat meal pre workout. Should i be changing to pro/carb?

Yeah defenetly.

Johan, wouldn't it depend on the kind of carbohydrate used? i would think the absorption would be different if dextrose were used instead of say oats or potatoes... just a thought.

Im sure it matters but in what ways I dont know. Since it has been shown that low gi carbs work as good pwo as high gi carbs I assume the same might hold for pre workout carbs aswell. The study only concern itself with dextrose though so its hard to know if there would have been a difference with some other carb source.

I use the same shake pwo as pre workout. 1 banana, half a liter of milk and whey.

What amounts of aminos and carbs are proposed? Would it be wise to split it up evenly before and after? Or maybe a 2:1 ratio before to after. Seems like it is def more beneficial (as far as MPS) to have the aminos and glucose before, but to blunt the effects of cortisol afterwards seems equally important.

I will definitely experiment with this theory a little more. Typically, I've been consuming an apple or oats, and lean protein source prior, but nothing like a pro/dextrose shake.

The essential amino acids are the most important thing pre-wo so a decent serving of whey seems to be the most important. I think you can add any carb of your chooise and imo a 1:1 ratio is plenty unless you want more carbs in your diet. What you have been consuming so far seems like a good chooise.

[ph34rsh4ck]

would a pre workout shake follow the same guidelines as a post workout shake?

[Giants11]

would a pre workout shake follow the same guidelines as a post workout shake?

You would def want a lower GI carb to prevent a blood sugar crash.

[chest6]

Yeah, I've been doing a whey/oats preworkout shake for awhile now..and I've done 10 fold better than I did last time I cut. I would burn out 10 minutes in last time when I had pro/fat before..

[Giants11]

Yeah, I've been doing a whey/oats preworkout shake for awhile now..and I've done 10 fold better than I did last time I cut. I would burn out 10 minutes in last time when I had pro/fat before..

It just makes sense......

[towtheline]

so what do you guys feel is the better option when it comes to pwo? Adding something like vitargo or high carb/protein/bcaa's? I have been slamming vitargo immediately pwo and then like 30 mins later the bccaa/carb/protein. It seems to be effective, but is it correct for anabolism?

[spittin' 'n cussin']

Respons on MPS means the respons on muscle protein synthesis. The response in this case is a increase,

The response is measured by phenylalanine levels.

Individual genetics doesnt realy make a difference. All our bodies respond is just about the same way to things like this fortunaly.

The things I have posted acctualy do show that a pro/dex shake does alot. It just doesnt matter that much if you hit it imidietly pwo or say 2 hours after your workout. The effect it has on protein synthesis is the same regardles of timing(disregarding cortisol like giantz mentioned).
It also shows that having the same drink pre workout gives both a increase in muscle protein synthesis during the workout AND the same increase post workout as if you had had the shake pwo. So you get synthesis during workout+synthesis pwo with that one shake.

Hope that answeres the questions

its an interesting experiment but seems a little shoddy in that they just go by phenylalanine levels which is their "tracer." not that i REALLY know what im talking about but that doesnt say to me that it makes me bigger, cuz in the end thats what we are looking for no matter how you say it. i have always agreed with a good preworkout meal, dont get me wrong, but i have never heard of measuring your phenylalanine levels to see if youre making progress. couldnt i drink a diet mt dew and raise my phenylalanine levels?

i think genetics would make a difference, especially since the metabolic disorder Phenylketonuria is in fact genetic....

[ascendant]

seems like an easy way to incorporate this into a routine is simply take a swig of your PWO shake right before your workout. after all, most of us use whey with malto and dex PWO, so a small swig of that stuff right before our workout should be adequate. that way, there's no need to change things around in your diet to add this in, as you're still getting the same amount of calories.

now, what about taking some in during the middle of a workout? what i usually do is train 2 bodyparts per workout, and i take a 5 minute break in between bodyparts. so, maybe a small swig in that 5min break period might be a good idea as well? i used to do it but stopped because i figured all the blood is in my muscles and there's not much blood in the intestinal tract to absorb whatever i take in at that point. however, this study seems to indicate otherwise.

[Giants11]

Most studies indicate that amino's during a workout has little to no effect its all about pre and post. And I believe you will need more than a swing. Its best to have a nice pre-workout meal about 30 min before training, so amino blood concentration peaks. Or perhaps some BCAA's pre WO.

[Giants11]

its an interesting experiment but seems a little shoddy in that they just go by phenylalanine levels which is their "tracer." not that i REALLY know what im talking about but that doesnt say to me that it makes me bigger, cuz in the end thats what we are looking for no matter how you say it. i have always agreed with a good preworkout meal, dont get me wrong, but i have never heard of measuring your phenylalanine levels to see if youre making progress. couldnt i drink a diet mt dew and raise my phenylalanine levels?

i think genetics would make a difference, especially since the metabolic disorder Phenylketonuria is in fact genetic....

Dude you are going about this the wrong way.

This is not a study on genetics, rather the study of the interaction of Amino's and exercise.

They use a phenylalanine tracer method to determine MPS rates and or proteolysis. In any experiment/study you will need some form of a tracer to determine your results. Sorry but that just the way it is.

[ascendant]

Most studies indicate that amino's during a workout has little to no effect its all about pre and post. And I believe you will need more than a swing. Its best to have a nice pre-workout meal about 30 min before training, so amino blood concentration peaks. Or perhaps some BCAA's pre WO.

thanks for clearing that up for me.

i typically wait an hour till after i'm done eating to go lift. so maybe about 30 mins before like you suggested, i can take in a small portion of my PWO shake? i'd add in BCAAs, but just don't really have the extra cash right now to start shelling out for another supplement.

[Giants11]

thanks for clearing that up for me.

i typically wait an hour till after i'm done eating to go lift. so maybe about 30 mins before like you suggested, i can take in a small portion of my PWO shake? i'd add in BCAAs, but just don't really have the extra cash right now to start shelling out for another supplement.

An hour should be fine bro.

So long as your Pre-WO is a solid meal.

[spittin' 'n cussin']

Dude you are going about this the wrong way.

This is not a study on genetics, rather the study of the interaction of Amino's and exercise.

They use a phenylalanine tracer method to determine MPS rates and or proteolysis. In any experiment/study you will need some form of a tracer to determine your results. Sorry but that just the way it is.

youre wrong jk dude

well why dont they speak american and give us arm and chest measurement increases instead of protyoluphenylotronics? i mean dang, i wear a sleeveless shirt, not a white lab coat

[Kärnfysikern]

its an interesting experiment but seems a little shoddy in that they just go by phenylalanine levels which is their "tracer." not that i REALLY know what im talking about but that doesnt say to me that it makes me bigger, cuz in the end thats what we are looking for no matter how you say it. i have always agreed with a good preworkout meal, dont get me wrong, but i have never heard of measuring your phenylalanine levels to see if youre making progress. couldnt i drink a diet mt dew and raise my phenylalanine levels?

i think genetics would make a difference, especially since the metabolic disorder Phenylketonuria is in fact genetic....

Like giantz said that is just the way they measure protein synthesis and protein synthesis is what determines your lean body mass gain. So it does say you gain muscle....

To measure something you need a tracer. If you by earlier experiments have shown that substance x is always elevated this and that much when process b is increased it means you can always use substance x as a measure of process b.
Phenylalanine is the substance that is used to measure the process in this instance.

It is a direct measure of protein synthesis so there is realy nothing wierd about it.

Genetic makes no difference because human physiology is basicly the same for all individuals(otherwise no medical study would be reliable for instance) and several individuals where used in this study.

If 15grams of essential amino acids raise protein synthesis in me it will do the same for everyone because the basic responses of our bodies are the same.

Using a tracer is nothing just specific for nutrition/medicine research.
There is very limited cases where you can directly measure something.
You almost always need to measure something indirectly by its effect on other things. This is comon practice for all branches of science.
Think about carbon dating for age determination for instance. You cant even directly measure such a basic thing as how much sunlight is falling onto a patch of ground. You instead have to let the light fall on a semi conductor and measure the change in resistance and from that calculate the light intensity. Doesnt mean any of those methods are unreliable. Not if we know the exact relation betwen resistance and light or the exact relation betwen phenylalanine and muscle protein synthesis...

Hope that makes sense?

[Kärnfysikern]

youre wrong jk dude

well why dont they speak american and give us arm and chest measurement increases instead of protyoluphenylotronics? i mean dang, i wear a sleeveless shirt, not a white lab coat

because those things are imensly much harder to measure exactly having just that one tracer of MPS means it makes it extremely easy to measure it.
Also a increase in protein synthesis doesnt have to mean a increase in lean body mass since the former is a transient effect while the later is a long term effect...The relation betwen the two might not be very simple.

But a increase in protein synthesis is always benifical for our purposes Thats how steroids work its magic...

[chest6]

An hour should be fine bro.

So long as your Pre-WO is a solid meal.

so yuou think I should replace my whey/oats preworkout shake with a solid pro/carb meal?

[Giants11]

so yuou think I should replace my whey/oats preworkout shake with a solid pro/carb meal?

Na you're fins bro. Maybe just throw some Skim in there.

[Giants11]

youre wrong jk dude

well why dont they speak american and give us arm and chest measurement increases instead of protyoluphenylotronics? i mean dang, i wear a sleeveless shirt, not a white lab coat

Bro, nothing more badass than having your arms rip through a white lab coat tearing it to shreds.

[ascendant]

An hour should be fine bro.

So long as your Pre-WO is a solid meal.

great, thanks again. typically i do chicken breast with red potatoes, so i think i'm good to go on that.

[bor]

How long before my workout can I have the preworkout meal for it to coun't as an PREworkout meal? 2 hours, less?

[Kärnfysikern]

How long before my workout can I have the preworkout meal for it to coun't as an PREworkout meal? 2 hours, less?

if we want to stay true to the particular study I posted it should be as close as comfortable...