Are carbs needed for growth

**KingMike** · 08-19-2006, 10:48 AM

If pwo is the most important meals and since my strength increases without carbs I though about running a bulk like this. Anyone ever try this.

P/F
P/F
P/F
P/F
P/F
Surge during workout (50-60 carbs)
dextrose/whey after (100 grams of carbs)
Chicken and white rice 1 hour later (100 grams of carbs)

Calories are in check and strength levels stay the same with or wothout carbs

**1buffsob** · 08-19-2006, 12:22 PM

The idea of only consuming three consecutive high carb meals a day screams trouble to me. I seriously doubt you'll see much growth, if any. Carbs (glycogen) are a must for muscle growth. And although you're consuming 250g+, which isn't that small of an amount, I doubt your body can utilize much of it in that short of a time frame.

It might be possible with insulin , but I wouldn't do it.

1buffsob

**steve0** · 08-19-2006, 12:56 PM

a steady release of insulin is adaquate for building muscle and burning fat.

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-19-2006, 06:20 PM

Much better to have a pro/carb meal pre workout and skip the ppwo meal imo. No point in drinking carbs during the workout.

I gain well from only having carbs in one meal pre and one meal post workout.

**steve0** · 08-19-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by johan

Much better to have a pro/carb meal pre workout and skip the ppwo meal imo. No point in drinking carbs during the workout.

I gain well from only having carbs in one meal pre and one meal post workout.

you are the only one i i know that can do this, i mean i love my carbs im hittin around 250-300 cutting my low day in cutting is 180, have you ever checked to see if you are inslin resistance?? i kinew this guy and his body couldnt process carbs for some reason ??

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-20-2006, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by steve0

you are the only one i i know that can do this, i mean i love my carbs im hittin around 250-300 cutting my low day in cutting is 180, have you ever checked to see if you are inslin resistance?? i kinew this guy and his body couldnt process carbs for some reason ??

defenetly dont have insulin resistance

I have very good insulin sensitivity and my blood sugar is naturaly a bit on the low side.

I just feel alot better when I dont consume much carbs. More energy and I feel more fresh in some way. I have plenty of energy even if I do pure keto.

Offcourse I almost exclusivly do low rep work. My high rep strenght is never as good when cutting as when bulking.

**KingMike** · 08-20-2006, 11:29 AM

I took away the workout carbs and now do only pwo and ppwo.

That is crazy to say you need carbs all day and before to build muscle. Maybe one carb meal 2 hours prior to working out would be best but some are different. There is a certain person VERY prominent who has tons of people on his program and most take in only carbs pwo and ppwo and alot of testimonials I have read stated that they lose fat and keep or gain some mass while cutting. So for someone eating 400 grams of protein, 100 grams of fat and 175-200 grams of carbs in the pwo time frame in one day can add mass. Maybe not as fast as eating 2-3 carb meals through the day but I think it all goes back to how you feel and if you are gaining strength.

If you gain strength, have proper pwo nutrtion, feed your body enough calories to slowly put on weight, you will gain muscle I feel.

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-20-2006, 11:48 AM

king you realy should have pre workout carbs. pre workout carbs are much more important than post workout carbs.
Its not a matter of energy its just more anabolic to have carbs pre workout.

pwo nutrition is WAY WAY overrated. Simply because repleneshing glycogen stores quickly has no positive impact on protein synthesis at all. The only thing important pwo is to get some carbs(doesnt need to be much carbs or high gi) and essential amino acids.

Read this thread to se the reason for pre workout carbs
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=249518

This quote says it all

a mixture of 6 g EAAs + 35 g glucose given immediately before exercise resulted in a greater stimulation of net muscle protein balance than when it was given either immediately or 1 h after exercise (15). Interestingly, not only was the net uptake of amino acids greater during the exercise period (when only the group given amino acids before exercise had received anything), but the response was also greater in the first hour after exercise than was the first hour response of subjects who were given the supplement immediately after exercise.

So if you want to limit carbs as much as you can, then a pro/carb meal pre workout is the single most important meal of the day.

**audis4** · 08-20-2006, 11:51 AM

The idea of only consuming three consecutive high carb meals a day screams trouble to me. I seriously doubt you'll see much growth, if any. Carbs (glycogen) are a must for muscle growth. And although you're consuming 250g+, which isn't that small of an amount, I doubt your body can utilize much of it in that short of a time frame.

It might be possible with insulin , but I wouldn't do it.

1buffsob

I totally agree with 1buff's comment.

**KingMike** · 08-20-2006, 12:36 PM

Thanks for the advice,I will try it.Are complex (oats, brown rice) carbs the best a few hours prior to working out or should I try something like whey and honey about 30-40 minutes prior? I will also try just eating a whole meal of medium glycemic carbs and protein after working out rather than dextrose.

If carbs are important at these 2 times of the day, what about days off. SHould I just eat protein and fat all day? I am a 4mer fatboy and really a hardcore endo.

Also, after my postworkout carb meal, how long should I wait to eat my P/F meal? I am SO hungry after working out it is not funny. I usually wait 1 1/2 hours cause I figure that insulin levels are lowered by then, atleast they feel lower.

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-20-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by KingMike

Thanks for the advice,I will try it.Are complex (oats, brown rice) carbs the best a few hours prior to working out or should I try something like whey and honey about 30-40 minutes prior? I will also try just eating a whole meal of medium glycemic carbs and protein after working out rather than dextrose.

If carbs are important at these 2 times of the day, what about days off. SHould I just eat protein and fat all day? I am a 4mer fatboy and really a hardcore endo.

Also, after my postworkout carb meal, how long should I wait to eat my P/F meal? I am SO hungry after working out it is not funny. I usually wait 1 1/2 hours cause I figure that insulin levels are lowered by then, atleast they feel lower.

Id say whey and honey 30 minutes before should be as good as lower gi 60 minutes before. Having the whey close before a workout might give some advantage since you will have some extra essential amino acids running around in your blood when hitting the weights. So either way a whey shake 20-30 minutes before should be benificial.

If your pwo meal is a meal with low to medium gi carbs you can probably eat the pro/fat meal within 60-90 minutes after your pwo meal without any need to worry.

On days you need to experiment. I can get away with no carbs at all on those days while others become sluggish when doing so. You can try both ways for a while and se how your body responds

A couple of fruits is probably enough if you start to feel very sluggish.
But this is just my oppinion and my oppinion when it comes to carb consumption is truly a minority oppinion

**KingMike** · 08-20-2006, 03:12 PM

Thanks so much. I am always afraid of honey preworkout becasue I will be going P/F all day and always read that honey goes to your liver, and the whole point )for me) to have preworkout carbs is to get some water in my muscles, not for energy from my liver. I muster energy just fine without carb pre workout but I want to have every advantage I can in gaining mass with little fat.

If I am doing 1 pwo meal of med. gi carbs, should I have whey right when I come in becasue it will take me atleast 20 minutes to get my food prepared and gobble it down. I also read that whey only after a workout is a no no but I think that is BS.

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-20-2006, 03:16 PM

well even if it goes to the liver it is later released from the liver into the blood during the workout. Since you are not eating carbs during the rest of the day its unlikely the livers carb storage is filled so there is no danger of the fructose in the honey converting into fat either.

Having the whey as soon as possible sure wont hurt. Its the essential amino acids in the whey that are responsible for increasing protein synthesis. there is nothing wrong with having whey alone but some carbs with it is good in order to blunt catabolic hormones post workout.

**KingMike** · 08-20-2006, 03:24 PM

What if I choose the oats/fruit and egg white road, will that be avalible for muscle energy 1 hour later?

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-20-2006, 04:25 PM

do you mean as pre workout meal? sure it will work. Just have the meal no earlier than 60 minutes pre workout and it should be cool

I have my pre workout meal as close to the workout as I can without it hampering my workout.

***Narkissos*** · 08-20-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by KingMike

That is crazy to say you need carbs all day and before to build muscle.

Why?

I don't think it is.

**Superballer** · 08-20-2006, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by johan

king you realy should have pre workout carbs. pre workout carbs are much more important than post workout carbs.
Its not a matter of energy its just more anabolic to have carbs pre workout.

pwo nutrition is WAY WAY overrated. Simply because repleneshing glycogen stores quickly has no positive impact on protein synthesis at all. The only thing important pwo is to get some carbs(doesnt need to be much carbs or high gi) and essential amino acids.

Read this thread to se the reason for pre workout carbs
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=249518

This quote says it all

So if you want to limit carbs as much as you can, then a pro/carb meal pre workout is the single most important meal of the day.

Regarding this idea:

If you were to eat carbs say aprox. 4 hours before workout (i.e. pro/carb, pro/fat then workout)... are the carbs you've eaten going to help at all, as compared to if you ate them 1 hour before workout, as in this study?

**jef** · 08-21-2006, 02:42 AM

i've been experimenting and pro/carb with every meal is helping me stay leaner, burning more fat and having a much better mental attitude. I recently finished something like you have above and it's not something i will do again. find what works for you...give it a shot for 60 days and see what you think.

**jef** · 08-21-2006, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by KingMike

What if I choose the oats/fruit and egg white road, will that be avalible for muscle energy 1 hour later?

yes. mine is at 1.5 hours.

**Kärnfysikern** · 08-21-2006, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Superballer

Regarding this idea:

If you were to eat carbs say aprox. 4 hours before workout (i.e. pro/carb, pro/fat then workout)... are the carbs you've eaten going to help at all, as compared to if you ate them 1 hour before workout, as in this study?

To be honest I can not answere that. In the studies showing the huge benifits of a pre workout pro/carb meal they gave the participants carbs and protein imidietly pre workout. I dont know enough about nutrition to be able to extrapolate that much. So I would try to get a pro/carb meal as close as possible to the workout. Maby even preferably a shake like 15 minutes pre workout.

The carbs you eat 4 hours before will fill your glycogen stores and give you energy during the workout though.

**AleX-69** · 08-21-2006, 03:11 AM

I don't need much carbs either to build muscle. I even built muscle on a calorie restriced diet eating approx 100g carbs a day.. (AAS assisted of course).

**Superballer** · 08-21-2006, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by johan

To be honest I can not answere that. In the studies showing the huge benifits of a pre workout pro/carb meal they gave the participants carbs and protein imidietly pre workout. I dont know enough about nutrition to be able to extrapolate that much. So I would try to get a pro/carb meal as close as possible to the workout. Maby even preferably a shake like 15 minutes pre workout.

The carbs you eat 4 hours before will fill your glycogen stores and give you energy during the workout though.

Honest answer... thanks again.

**Jakt** · 08-21-2006, 09:02 AM

if your a natural bb, then hell yeah, need carbs, taking AS then some people can get away w/ very low carbs,,, (i've see this b4, but everyone is diff)

**steve0** · 08-21-2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jakt

if your a natural bb, then hell yeah, need carbs, taking AS then some people can get away w/ very low carbs,,, (i've see this b4, but everyone is diff)

IMO this makes sense

**1buffsob** · 08-21-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jakt

if your a natural bb, then hell yeah, need carbs, taking AS then some people can get away w/ very low carbs,,, (i've see this b4, but everyone is diff)

True. But those people usually A)Aren't past their genetic limit, and B) Don't make as good of gains if carbs were higher.

I think Johan is the only exception. Freak of ****ing nature if you ask me.

1buffsob

**spittin' 'n cussin'** · 08-21-2006, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by KingMike

If pwo is the most important meals and since my strength increases without carbs I though about running a bulk like this. Anyone ever try this.

P/F
P/F
P/F
P/F
P/F
Surge during workout (50-60 carbs)
dextrose/whey after (100 grams of carbs)
Chicken and white rice 1 hour later (100 grams of carbs)

Calories are in check and strength levels stay the same with or wothout carbs

ok first off i wanna know where the hell you can still buy surge.

and i think its the last thing u should drink during or before a workout. its sugar so u may crash during workout and i recently read caffiene slows blood flow and u dont want that. just chop up some niacin and snort it before workout

**Jakt** · 08-22-2006, 02:12 PM

i wish we could hook up to a computer and it would let use know exactly what are individual carb, pro, fat, calorie needs are, that would be amazing, this is such a mental game as well! maybe in a couple yrrs!

**audis4** · 08-22-2006, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jakt

i wish we could hook up to a computer and it would let use know exactly what are individual carb, pro, fat, calorie needs are, that would be amazing, this is such a mental game as well! maybe in a couple yrrs!

Wow! That would be a GREAT invention. Doesn't seem impossible...

**rtpassionz** · 08-23-2006, 11:24 AM

During my cycle I wasn't gaining the weight I had expected, so I jumped up my carbs by another 100 and the LBS started flying on. I really feel it's very important to have plenty of carbs, don't underestimate them

**timtim** · 08-23-2006, 03:13 PM

and i think its the last thing u should drink during or before a workout. its sugar so u may crash

actually the use of these carbs preworkout has a much better effect than postworkout. check the post where johan explains it all, its in the link posted by johan on this thread.