30 WEEKS OF CUTTING - What is wrong with me?

[CoreyTampa09]

Ok guys Ive been an avid member of this board and with all your knowledge and info I finally decided to get my diet in check around march and incorporate a strong cutting diet to incorporate my love for lifting.

Quick Bio: Been fat since I was 16, 5'7 220. Dropped the weight through running and pretty much starvation...salads..veggies...chicken...didnt know much about nutrition and dropped to a scrawny, soft and disgusting 160 5'10. In February of my senior year I started lifting and learning as much as I can when it came to workouts, splits and technique. My diet was clean but nothing like it is now with the seperation of macros. By The summer upon entering college i was 170ish at 5'11. In college I did it, continued lifting but gained that freshman 15 and was at my peak of 188 and was very unhappy when I finally found your site. I started the cutting program in the sticky and by may I was down to 174ish, losing 1 pound a week. From the beginning of my freshman year I gained alot of muscle mass, and alot of my strenghth nearly doubled. Just one thing still doesnt match up, strength to size.

Over the summer I continued trying to get leaner and leaner and the complete opposite occured. As the more clean and better my diet became the more weight I was putting on, clean granted but still lbs. Im sitting here weighing in at 186, 12 pounds up from the summer, with alot more size, strength but still that annoying problematic fat that has been with me since the beginning of 05'.

Medical History: Recently when I got my physcial I was diagnosed with low test, levels around 250 and after many tests my doctor decided to put me on Test Enthanate a 200mg every 2 weeks to help bring my natural test levels up near 500.

Supplement History: Over the course of my 30 week cut Ive gone through 3 cycles of ECA, lipo 6 and Redline. The ECA makes me feel the best, after am cardio I feel real tight and lean, but towards the end of the day my stomach is enormous. Ive been on CEE for the past 3 weeks and Like it alot. ON's whey ive been with for 1.5 years and I just introduced cyto gainer as part of my PWO nutrition.

Considering: Ive read alot about colon cleansing on people with that constant bloat look and pertruding stomach issue. Since I ate like crap as a kid im sure theres some blockage of the damage I did with 16 years of poor eating. Its funny around 7pm. I maybe have a pinch ful of fat on my stomach and sides that covers my abs but around that time my stomach is a good 2-3 inches over my pants and its hard, almost like im pregnant.

Heres my diet - Rip it apart if you like

A.M Cardio - Upon Waking up 35-45min elliptical at a heartrate of 135-150

Meal 1 10:00 - 1/2 cup of oats, sugar free jam, 8 egg whites

Meal 2 1:00 - Salad with vinegar, veggies, 8 egg whites, 2 tbsp natural pb.

Meal 3 PWO 4:00 - 1/2 cup of oats, 1 scoop of whey mixed in

Workout 4:45 - Split of - Chest/shoulder raises, back/bis, legs, rest, shoulder press/traps, bis/tri, rest, repeat (On bi's days, I do 6 sets with 1 set of 21's)20min pwo cardio

PWO shake 6:00 - 1 scoop of On's Whey, 2 scoops of Cytogainer, 1/4 banana 40:60 breakdown.

Meal 5 7:30 - Salad with veggies and vinegar, mixed veggies, 4 slices of turkey, 1 slice of swiss, 6 egg whites.

Meal 6 Usuallly 1-2 hours before bed - 6 hard boiled eggs 2 tbsp Natural PB or 1 scoop of why blended with cottage cheese.

NOW WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP MYSELF, BECUASE QUITE FRANKLY IM GOING INSANE. Well not really, im very happy with my size this days but still with just barely an outline of abs im getting quite dissapointed and ready to just bulk and see what happens. Although I know if I bulk im going to be sorely depressed considering I know I will be 210 before I know it. If I gaine weight at 2400 calories a day, I cant even imagine how my body would react at 4000.

So anything you guys can suggest, supplements, a better split with better workouts, meals, meat cleaver to my love handles perhaps?! Thank you for whoever gives me advice.

[audis4]

Congrats on the major weight loss.

List macros if you want your diet critiqued.

[CoreyTampa09]

Well its not really I want my diet critiqued as this has worked for me in building LBM and decrease BF%. What I essentially would like is, from everything ive told you anything I can change or add or take out to help me reduce more BF% or other tactics for getting leaner.

[GUnit33]

Please list macros for each meal as well as your maintence cals and such. Other than that, have you had a darn cheat meal? Or day for that matter? If I was cutting for that long with out a cheat meal, I wouldn't have success, that's for sure.

[audis4]

Well its not really I want my diet critiqued as this has worked for me in building LBM and decrease BF%. What I essentially would like is, from everything ive told you anything I can change or add or take out to help me reduce more BF% or other tactics for getting leaner.

Oh I see, maybe do a cheat meal or a carb up day to restart your metabolism.

[audis4]

recheck your macros....your diets not very good (I know you don't want it critiqued etc.) but it wouldn't hurt bro. and you aren't gaining fat off 2400 cals, you might be taking in more than you think.

Also, up your am cardio to 45min-1hour.

[CoreyTampa09]

Macros aright.

Meal 1 - 3 fat 35 carbs 30 pro

Meal 2 - 20 fat 8 carbs 33 pro

Meal 3 - 3 fat 35 carbs 30 pro

Meal 4 - 4 fat 60 carb 40 pro

Meal 5 - 10 fat 7 carb 35 pro

Meal 6 - 20 fat 4 carbs 35 pro

Fat - 50 450
Carbs - 150 600
Pro - 203 812

Cals total 1860 - I add on an extra 200-400 based on the extra veggies I eat over the day that really cant be calculated due to the fact im not making nor measuring it. With all my Pro/Fat meals I consume a large amt of veggies. I also add those calories due to mis-measuring.

I mean I am due for a cheat meal I think. I mean two weekend I did a very small amt of drinking as my cheat which then I consumed about 6-8 serving of peanut butter at night which definitely consistutes as a cheat in my book. Maybe next week I ll actually have a real cheat of all real foods...Crazy Buffet in Tampa maybe...

I was thinking maybe for some reason I should try detoxifying my liver. After reading and learning more into my nutrition and anatomy class the Liver has a lot to do with the storage of fats considering it metabolizes the bile in your system. To go along with my constant bloat I think A colon cleanse could potentially help me out.

[Giants11]

Bro 30 weeks.

That is to long to be hypocaloric. You need to increa your cals for a month or more and then cut again.

Your body will fight you very very hard to not keep losing weight.

[CoreyTampa09]

Intersting...Maybe this is what Ill do talk me through this guys to see if it will potentiall work...

Im at 2200 now. Every week I will increase 100 cals until Dec when Ill eventually hit 3500. From Dec to end of Feb ill continue with 3500 thats a solid 8 weeks. Then Ill bring it back down to 2200 and see what happens.

[audis4]

Intersting...Maybe this is what Ill do talk me through this guys to see if it will potentiall work...

Im at 2200 now. Every week I will increase 100 cals until Dec when Ill eventually hit 3500. From Dec to end of Feb ill continue with 3500 thats a solid 8 weeks. Then Ill bring it back down to 2200 and see what happens.

What are your maintenance cals?

[audis4]

If your not happy where your at, just do a carb load day and continue cutting.

[FromFleshtoSteel]

its gonna take more than 1 carb load day to reset after 30 weeks of hypocaloric. bump nice, clean, healthy carbs for 2-4 weeks then hit it again

on the next try I would center carbs only around my workout and go as close to no-carb during the day as possible, also, all in some ***** 3's whether it be by flaxseed oil or fish oil

PWO - 2:1 ratio carbs to protein

before bed I would do a pro/fat meal using flax or fish oil in order to stimulate more FFA release and usage during the fasting hours of sleep

[CoreyTampa09]

What do you mean bump nice,clean,healthy carbs for 2-4 weeks.

[305GUY]

What do you mean bump nice,clean,healthy carbs for 2-4 weeks.

pretty sure he means bump up the sweet potatos, brown rice, oats, wheat bread.. not to go stuff your face with mcdonalds.

[305GUY]

and after 30 weeks of cutting white bread, white rice, white potatos, are all good to go also IMO.. throw in a couple of all out cheat meals also to keep your body guessing.

[CoreyTampa09]

Dude my body is so horrible...i eat a cheat meal and i put on 6 pounds and it takes a week to get back to where I was prior to the cheat meal. I mean maybe if i just keep throwing in cheat meal more frequent my body could adjust kind of like how it adjusted to the lifestyle I live now. When I say cheat meal I dont mean Hooters wings..but just not hardboiled eggs left and right.

[Kärnfysikern]

I have sometimes been cutting for almost that long and I can tell you one thing. It just doesnt work. After 20 weeks or so the body say "**** you" and you stop losing weight no matter what.

Your body seems similar to mine.

What you need is a good 6-8 weeks of maintanance kcal. Look at the big picture because in the long run that will mean more fat loss. Bump upp kcal to 2500 or so, focus on growing for those 6-8 weeks and then get back to cutting with a refreshed mind and body.

[FromFleshtoSteel]

Dude my body is so horrible...i eat a cheat meal and i put on 6 pounds and it takes a week to get back to where I was prior to the cheat meal. I mean maybe if i just keep throwing in cheat meal more frequent my body could adjust kind of like how it adjusted to the lifestyle I live now. When I say cheat meal I dont mean Hooters wings..but just not hardboiled eggs left and right.

6 lbs. sounds a little unreasonable...don't forget that it takes some time for the bloat to go away. It may look at and feel like 6 lbs. sometimes though

My guess is that you are probably just very burned out from cutting for so long. Mix up your food intake, increase your carbs and cals for awhile, and take a break from cardio. Its going to drive you crazy to see yourself put a little weight back on, but remember, its part of the plan and probably needs to be done in order to reach your long term goal. When you cut again, remember to incorporate some more small cheats or refeeds in order to keep your metabolism fired up.

[CoreyTampa09]

Ok. So how about with a regime something like this. I can easily get in another 200 a day by switching pro/fat with 3 pro/carb meals.... i.e 10 grams of fat 4 meals 360 - 40carbsx 4 meals 160x4= 640....actually thats nearly 300. If I do that for my first 4 meals of the day...probally including PWO shake...and then make my laast 3 meals pro/fat with a combined fat total in those 3 meals 50 consiting of natural peanut butter, cheese, and flax. That will give me a total of:

210 pro 840
180 carbs(+20 for pwo) 720
50 fat 450

Dang that still puts me in a deficit....Hmm maybe 70 fat and 230 protein?

[FromFleshtoSteel]

40 carbs x 4 = 160.... still too low man. That's about what you are consuming already. You need to jack it up! Don't be afraid to eat some extra carbs, just make sure you aren't stuffing your face with chips and cookies. Don't be afraid to go over maintenance cals...you will put on some weight at first and prob. freak out a bit but then you will even out with water gain and weight gain and things will slow down a bit, your metabolism will come back to normal, and you'll be ready to go.

keep working on that plan and try again

[CoreyTampa09]

What do you guys think about a colon cleanser as well. I think the member ascendant really said it did alot for him when he claimed he had the same symptoms i had. Pertruding stomach, constant bloat, lethargy, being backed up alot. Whats your take and what do you reccomend.

[FromFleshtoSteel]

I'd worry about cutting fat down to where you can see abs before you decide on a colon cleanse.

Are you eating lots of fiber, leafy green veggies, bran, whole grains, etc....this will all help with the "backed up" part. Exactly what kind of colon cleanse are you thinking of doing? Colonic? Some sort of pill or supplement? Strange diet for a few days?

Also, have you cut dairy out of your diet...obv. not with all of the cheese...try that for a week or two and watch some bloat disappear

[CoreyTampa09]

I was thinking of that 7 or 9 day drink that you take while eating...dr nutura I heard was excellent. And yes I take sugar free metamucil a few times a day with my pro/carb meals, oatmeal twice a day, and brocolli with 2 meals a day.

[usualsuspect]

First, it is a journey. A five pound difference in weight lost is noticiable, but it is only a small step in a lifetime of healthy living. Ten years down the road none of this will mean much.

Second, focusing on progress can be counter productive. If it isn't fast enough, you may do too much or do things that get you hurt. Or, become frustrated and quit. Or, you will start taking various subtances that are pretty much worthless and just put on fat rather than athletic muscle.

Third, eating 5 or 6 or more times a day (to stay in positive nitrogen balance) is plain dumb (JUST FOR YOUR STATED GOALS - DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE HERE!!!!). You will build less, not more muscle, because you turn down gene expression and you sabotage your insulin sensitivity.

Besides, eating 4-6 meals a day is just so time consuming that you are always rushing meals. This gives you no leisure at your meal time to enjoy the meal or your company. Usually, you have no company when you eat like this (Am I right?).

Not to mention you will probably eat poor foods as a result. It is too demanding to do otherwise. You will end up eating protein drinks and bars and all manner of other half-ass meals. Too little fiber, too few plant-based phytochemicals, and your meals will have a rather high glycemic index (without you even realizing).

[CoreyTampa09]

I dont know if your asking me something or telling me something suspect. I dont know if advice is being given here but my meals are stated above for you to see. I think there all fairly healthy without high GI foods. I dont eat for enjoyment, I eat to live. When I want to eat for enjoyment I go out for a cheat meal to hooters with the guys. So what are you suggesting?

[audis4]

don't like the advice which was given from usualsuspect.
6 meals minimum is a must!!
Why would he eat poorly as a result??!!

poor advice IMO!

[usualsuspect]

Audis4,
Two questions for you:

1.) Have you ever tried eating 3-4 healthy, nutrient (antioxidant) packed meals a day? if so, for how long?

2.) How is this bad advice if his current approach was not working and he never even tried this (alternative approach) before?

[HighVoltage]

I'll bet your biggest problem is eggs. Your pigging out on them, 28 eggs a day! There is no way you need that many.
your other problem is meal 6. Meal 6 is making you fat you dont need it but your probably addicted to it. If you just have to have 6 meals then eat a bananna or somthing like that right when you wake up.

Dont cheat if you dont have to, For me I've found that i just cant cheat a little, Its harder to take just one bite of chocolate than to eliminate it all together, you know what i mean?

If you just change a these little things you will have impressive results beginning in a few days

[brutesinme]

tampa, slowly ramp up your carb intake for 4 weeks, say 50 g more per week, then start cutting again.

[brutesinme]

what is wrong with eggs? high quality protein source and good fats in the yolk.

[CoreyTampa09]

Yeah, I only eat the whites of the hardboiled egg. If my information is correct I thought that it was 3.4 pro per egg and somewhere near 17 cals per egg. If I consume 8-10 with my pro/fat meals thats my 35 grams right there.

[usualsuspect]

Keep in mind this is what worked for me. I'm not asking you to endorse it or critique it for that matter. I used to eat 6-7 small meals a day like you and followed the standard bodybuilding diet for the longest time. In fact, I wrote an essay which sums up most of the dieting principles practiced here (I'd be more than happy to email it to you for nothing....its too large to attach). Grant it, I learned a lot from the boards and I'm very grateful for that. Especially the people I meet here and exchanged advice with. You can read my old posts for a complete history. At any rate, here's my advice today:
Take it for what its worth. If your happy with what you're currently doing please by all means stick to it. If you're not happy with your current status and willing to try out something new you may be surprised with the results. To start:

Drop the protein shakes. They are worse than useless. Cut the wheat based carbs too.

You are clearly still insulin resistant and it will take some time to regain your sensitivity and drop your insulin levels.


Get outside, play and walk. Have a 15 hour fast between dinner and breakfast.

Eat from 2 to 4 meals a day, but vary the number randomly and according to your hunger. Skip dinner at least twice a month.

I dont know if your asking me something or telling me something suspect. I dont know if advice is being given here but my meals are stated above for you to see. I think there all fairly healthy without high GI foods. I dont eat for enjoyment, I eat to live. When I want to eat for enjoyment I go out for a cheat meal to hooters with the guys. So what are you suggesting?

[audis4]

Audis4,
Two questions for you:

1.) Have you ever tried eating 3-4 healthy, nutrient (antioxidant) packed meals a day? if so, for how long?

2.) How is this bad advice if his current approach was not working and he never even tried this (alternative approach) before?

uh, ya I have. If he ate 3-4 meals is metabolism would undoubtably slow. His current approach may not have worked because his meals/macros etc. were not in the right timing/amount.

[CoreyTampa09]

yeah id be interested in reading that paper you wrote. With this 2-4 meals though...did each meal vary in cals or did you try to keep them from anywhere from 500-800

[usualsuspect]

His metabolism would slow down from eating 3-4 meals a day? Wow, can't say I heard that one before. Are you basing this off of personal experience or do you have scientific research/studies to back it up? I'm guessing neither.

Let's keep this a mature debate about nutrition too. That way we can all come out as winners here. If you make a blanket statement (or fire of an opinion) as such, please back it up with anything to give it an ounce of validity. And not just, "Well, swolecat and Mr. Bubblehead on Big Guns.com (10 time Mr. Olympia) eats 6-7 meals a day and look at them." I'm referring to something we can bite our teeth into. For example, did you ever measure your metabolic rate when eating 6 meals a day (everything else being constant....which is impossible by the way) compared to eating 3-4 meals per day? I'm guessing not.

At any rate, please tell us how 4 meals a day slows down one's metabolism.


I'm all ears.

[CoreyTampa09]

does this 3 or 4 meals a day include both the meal you eat before you train (oats and whey for me) as well as after you lift, 2 scoops of whey,oatmeal and fruit. If thats the case than your only eating twice a day besides that, probally breakfast and dinner.

[usualsuspect]

3 meals include everything. Assuming you workout in the morning. you'd preced to eat b,l, and d. If you workout in the evening, you'd eat b, l, and d (after your workout). Sometimes you eat 4 meals a day. Sometimes you skip breakfast. You see the pattern.

As in life nothing should be predicted. Everything happens randomly (chaos).

Basically, our brains and bodies are dynamic objects that thrive on challenge and movement; intermittent intensity brings key adaptations in hormone drives, neurological function, and body composition.

[CoreyTampa09]

That all may be true, but cant you just not argue with a few things in the world of nutrition and bodybuilding. One pound equals 3500 calories so the basic principle remaing to gain weight you have to increase and to lose weight you should create a deficit?

[brutesinme]

of course you have to have a calorie deficit to lose weight. I think that's the only thing that isn't up for debate.

[CoreyTampa09]

So guys what do you think the verdict should be for me. Since im around 15% I assume I could bulk and probally end up around 18-20% at 210-215.(Gaining weight for me isn;t hard). Then I guess I could cut back down to a hopefull 12-14% probally utilizing a clen cycle and more EFA;s.