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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by zodiac666
    i am just interested in what the best nutrients to have PWO are. as you know there have been an insane amount of articles over the years that told people to spike their insulin PWO. it does help replentish glycogen faster and some articles say that it does increase protein synthesis. all of these articles are probably the main reason why so many people spike their insulin.

    i really dont know what the best way is, i go with dex because all the articles i have read in the past have said to spike your insulin PWO. if you have scientific articles that prove that another way is more benificial for bodybuilders PLEASE POST THEM. i cant go by word of mouth, i need to see studies that show why one way is better than another.
    First, because its mentioned in a magazine or by a certain nutrition "expert" or "guru" does not mean that its good for you. They don't always have your best interest in mind. I won't mention any names but some "guru's" are only interested in helping their clients to maintain a specific look (putting them on highly restrictive calorie diets so they lose weight while ingesting certain carbs at certain times to maintain that muscular look) BUT on one hand you can't blame them either as thats what some people want. " I want to look just like him" Of course all this comes at an expense. Not only financially but to your health as well. Without going on further here let me reiterent this point I made in a previous post. And that is some body builders often do stupid, high risk things to themselves. Contrary to popular belief some are not a good models of healthy practice and when in fact have bad health themselves. As the age old saying goes, "you can't judge a book by its cover." The same when looking at a new car...you have to check under the hood and not just the exterior to determine the health and well-being of the car. Dig?

    As for studies...here is an abstract of a little experiment from the journal Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise that finds that high CHO drinks alter mood and focus.

    POST-EXERCISE CHO DRINKS MIGHT HAVE ADVERSE PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS

    Bloomer, R. J., Baldewicz, I. I., Keller, H. A., Vukovich, M. D., & Sforzo, G. A. (2000). Alterations in mood following acute post-exercise feeding with variance in macronutrient mix. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 32(5), Supplement abstract 121.

    The role of post-exercise feeding patterns on mood state were investigated in resistance-trained men (N = 10). Two to four hours following a standardized exercise routine, Ss were given: whole food (35 g protein, 75 g CHO, 7 g fat), a supplemental drink, an isocaloric CHO beverage, or a placebo. The POMS was used to measure mood states.

    Results suggested that excessive liquid CHO consumption following resistance exercise night cause acute feelings of fatigue, irritability, and mental dullness.

    Implication. Following resistance exercise, the consumption of a balanced mixed meal might be psychologically more beneficial than a CHO drink.

    Here is just another one showing what happens when you ingest a high carb meal or drink after your workout. You basically shut down this enhanced sensitivity and diminished insulin sensitivity (as meaured by GLUT 4).

    J Nutr Biochem. 2005 May;16(5):267-71. Related Articles, Links

    Effect of postexercise carbohydrate supplementation on glucose uptake-associated gene expression in the human skeletal muscle.

    Cheng IS, Lee NY, Liu KL, Liao SF, Huang CH, Kuo CH.

    Department of Nutrition and Food Sciences, Fu-Jen Catholic University, Taipei, Taiwan 242, ROC; Chungtai Institute of Health Sciences and Technology, Taipei, Taiwan 406, ROC.

    We previously found that the exercise-induced elevation in GLUT4 mRNA of rat muscle can be rapidly down-regulated when glucose is given immediately following exercise. The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of postexercise carbohydrate diet on GLUT4 and hexokinase (HK) II mRNA levels in the human skeletal muscle. Eight untrained male subjects (age, 20.7+/-3.1 years) exercised for 60 min on a cycle ergometer at a 70-75% maximal oxygen consumption. The postexercise dietary treatment was performed in a crossover design. Immediately after the exercise, a diet with 70% carbohydrate content (1 g per kilogram of body weight; 356+/-19.8 kcal) was given to half of the subjects (eaten in 10 min) followed by a 3-h recovery, while the control subjects remained unfed for 3 h. Biopsies were performed on the deep portion of the vastus lateralis muscle of all subjects immediately after the exercise and 3 h after the carbohydrate ingestion. Blood glucose and serum insulin concentrations were measured every 30 min for 3 h. At the end of the 3-h recovery, blood glucose and serum insulin levels were not different from control levels, indicating that the oral carbohydrate was mostly disposed in the body within 3 h. In addition, GLUT4 and HK II mRNA levels were significantly lowered in the exercised human skeletal muscle in subjects receiving the carbohydrate diet. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that GLUT4 mRNA and HK II mRNA in the exercised human skeletal muscle were significantly lowered by a high-carbohydrate diet.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zodiac666
    i am just interested in what the best nutrients to have PWO are. as you know there have been an insane amount of articles over the years that told people to spike their insulin PWO. it does help replentish glycogen faster and some articles say that it does increase protein synthesis. all of these articles are probably the main reason why so many people spike their insulin.

    i really dont know what the best way is, i go with dex because all the articles i have read in the past have said to spike your insulin PWO. if you have scientific articles that prove that another way is more benificial for bodybuilders PLEASE POST THEM. i cant go by word of mouth, i need to see studies that show why one way is better than another.

    I have posted many studies regarding this matter. Just do a search within this forum and you will come up with tons. This subject has been raging for about a year now. I switched from dex about a a year and a half ago and haven't looked back. Losing weight is easier and I feel better. Not to mention I put on muscle just the same. If you really can't find any via Search let me know and I'll point you in the right direction.
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  3. #43
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    Ppl really like their dextrose lol.. don't wanna give it up eh?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by I**mfkr
    Ppl really like their dextrose lol.. don't wanna give it up eh?
    the only thing i care about is what is the best thing to take PWO in order to help build muscle. its not like i dont want to give up dextrose because of political reasons. if someone can show me proof that another way is more effective at building muscle then i will switch in a heartbeat.

    Giants11-

    i did search a little bit and didnt find much (i might not have gone back far enough). if you can find them without much trouble could you please repost them or point me in their direction. as you know there are still plenty of people who take dextrose, and if you have studies that show that slow carbs are more effective to take PWO i would really like to see them.

  5. #45
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    I could post my pic compared to someone who used dextrose lol..

    In reality it really doesn't make that big of a noticable difference whether you take dextrose or not, there are MANY other factors which make the use of dextrose seem obsolete, Keep using your sugar if you'd like but it's not going to make or break you nor would you even probably notice a difference if you dropped it or not.

    Since I only train 2-3times/wk even if I used dextrose that is only 80-100carbs of dextrose I'd take per week, Do you really think 100 carbs is going to make a bit of difference unless I'm coming in for a show.

  6. #46
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    I B D what I dont understand is why you couldnt be paid to take dextrose yet you say you take maltodextrin. There really isnta big difference, sure malto is labeled as a complex carb rather than simple because its a glucose polymer and not just a mirror image of glucose like dextrose is. But the glycemix response in your body is almost IDENITCAL between the two. The only study I have seen which makes maltodextrin better is the fact that is keeps muscle glycogen stores elevated at higher rates than dextrose over a given time period. But even there the difference is minimal.

    If you could shed some extra light on this I would love to hear it, may help me to change some things in my nutritional gameplan.

  7. #47
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    Dextrose is sugar plain and simple whereas like you stated maltodextrin is similar but I don't believe it is processed the same.
    I know you already know Bino but for the others out there for a better explanation I'll go into it a bit further.

    Dextrose is classified as a Monosaccharide, also called Glucose. Fructose is also in this category but has recently been found to enter the bloodstream slower and doesn't cause the rapid spike in bloodsugar levels as glucose(dextrose) does.

    Maltodextrin on the other hand is categorized as a Complex carbohydrate also known as a Polysaccharide (made up of chains of glucose). Being that it isn't technically a simple sugar and is bound to more than one sugar-molecule I feel as if the spike in bloodsugar is lower than dextrose (as I don't get the immediate spike and then the lack of energy shortly after ingestion).. Also keep in mind that I'm only doing a very minimal amount of Maltodextrin (25grams) mixed with Vitargo (15grams) totally 40grams of mixed carbohydrates Post Workout, unlike some other guys doing straight dextrose at well over 50-75grams.
    Something else to keep in mind is that fact that I use Insulin PWO which I didn't really want to mention but will to make my reasoning more clear.. As well as reading studies that show that 30-40grams of simple carbs actually help with the absorbtion and transportation of BCAA's.

    I've done all three ways; Dextrose PWO, complex carbs (oats/b.rice/pasta) PWO, and now a mixture of carbs PWO and all three work well but I didn't enjoy the crash from dextrose, can't take regular complex carbs PWO with insulin so I'm stuck using the mixture of carbs to keep from going hypo.
    Before I started the slin I would do 15g's liquid aminos with 10g's BCAA's followed by a PWO Meal 30mins later and it worked very well.

    Sorry for the length, just wanted to get a full explanation.. All ways work, just find which works best for You.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by I**mfkr
    I could post my pic compared to someone who used dextrose lol..

    In reality it really doesn't make that big of a noticable difference whether you take dextrose or not, there are MANY other factors which make the use of dextrose seem obsolete, Keep using your sugar if you'd like but it's not going to make or break you nor would you even probably notice a difference if you dropped it or not.

    Since I only train 2-3times/wk even if I used dextrose that is only 80-100carbs of dextrose I'd take per week, Do you really think 100 carbs is going to make a bit of difference unless I'm coming in for a show.
    You don't wanna go there brutha.....trust me...not a flame and you do look good, but there are some heavy hitters that SWEAR by Dextrose...I am not one of them, but I know quite a few............

  9. #49
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    Columbus,
    You are always welcome to question and debate but your behavior has bordered on that of a Troll. You remark yet provide no logic or explanation to your post, merely shifting gears to launch another attack at the status quo. Classic Troll behavior.

    You have also criticized people in various threads with a level of arrogance that is frankly stunning to observe. In simple terms you need to conduct yourself with some class, kindness and decorum or you are going to get bumped down the information superhighway. I'd seen it many happen times before.

    Just a friendly FYI.
    Last edited by usualsuspect; 10-04-2006 at 05:58 AM.

  10. #50
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    Thanks for the advice but I in no way mean to berate or belittle ANYONE....not my objective. Only stating that there are many who subscribe by both or either theory. No disrespect intended.

  11. #51
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    Good stuff Columbus! Just didn't want to see you head down that road...it can be very dark and lonely at times.

    Now back to the regular scheduled program.
    Last edited by usualsuspect; 10-04-2006 at 07:19 AM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect
    Good stuff Columbus! Just didn't want to see you head down that road...it can be very dark and lonely at times.

    Now back to the regular scheduled program.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by I**mfkr
    Dextrose is sugar plain and simple whereas like you stated maltodextrin is similar but I don't believe it is processed the same.
    I know you already know Bino but for the others out there for a better explanation I'll go into it a bit further.

    Dextrose is classified as a Monosaccharide, also called Glucose. Fructose is also in this category but has recently been found to enter the bloodstream slower and doesn't cause the rapid spike in bloodsugar levels as glucose(dextrose) does.

    Maltodextrin on the other hand is categorized as a Complex carbohydrate also known as a Polysaccharide (made up of chains of glucose). Being that it isn't technically a simple sugar and is bound to more than one sugar-molecule I feel as if the spike in bloodsugar is lower than dextrose (as I don't get the immediate spike and then the lack of energy shortly after ingestion).. Also keep in mind that I'm only doing a very minimal amount of Maltodextrin (25grams) mixed with Vitargo (15grams) totally 40grams of mixed carbohydrates Post Workout, unlike some other guys doing straight dextrose at well over 50-75grams.
    Something else to keep in mind is that fact that I use Insulin PWO which I didn't really want to mention but will to make my reasoning more clear.. As well as reading studies that show that 30-40grams of simple carbs actually help with the absorbtion and transportation of BCAA's.

    I've done all three ways; Dextrose PWO, complex carbs (oats/b.rice/pasta) PWO, and now a mixture of carbs PWO and all three work well but I didn't enjoy the crash from dextrose, can't take regular complex carbs PWO with insulin so I'm stuck using the mixture of carbs to keep from going hypo.
    Before I started the slin I would do 15g's liquid aminos with 10g's BCAA's followed by a PWO Meal 30mins later and it worked very well.

    Sorry for the length, just wanted to get a full explanation.. All ways work, just find which works best for You.

    Tru but Malto has a higher GI rating than Dex, 105 compared to 100 for dexrose. Meaning that even though it is complex it elevates blood sugar levels faster than Dex.

    http://www.wellnessgalaxy.com/glycemic.htm
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by zodiac666
    the only thing i care about is what is the best thing to take PWO in order to help build muscle. its not like i dont want to give up dextrose because of political reasons. if someone can show me proof that another way is more effective at building muscle then i will switch in a heartbeat.

    Giants11-

    i did search a little bit and didnt find much (i might not have gone back far enough). if you can find them without much trouble could you please repost them or point me in their direction. as you know there are still plenty of people who take dextrose, and if you have studies that show that slow carbs are more effective to take PWO i would really like to see them.

    No problem give me a few, I'll post what I have.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbus
    You don't wanna go there brutha.....trust me...not a flame and you do look good, but there are some heavy hitters that SWEAR by Dextrose...I am not one of them, but I know quite a few............
    It was an analogy, there will be guys that eat poodle shit and look great and swear by it, one supplement or meal isn't going to make or break a bodybuilder is the point.. People put too much emphasis on the small things, again genetics play a huge role also in how much someone can get away with. You'd just have to tinker with it and see, if dextrose works for you Great, take it.. but obviously you'd have to try both ways for a prolonged period of time and observe every aspect of your training/rest/diet to tell which chain was weak on the link.. Most people never really learn their bodies well enough to tell anyhow so they just speculate.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by I**mfkr
    It was an analogy, there will be guys that eat poodle shit and look great and swear by it, one supplement or meal isn't going to make or break a bodybuilder is the point.. People put too much emphasis on the small things, again genetics play a huge role also in how much someone can get away with. You'd just have to tinker with it and see, if dextrose works for you Great, take it.. but obviously you'd have to try both ways for a prolonged period of time and observe every aspect of your training/rest/diet to tell which chain was weak on the link.. Most people never really learn their bodies well enough to tell anyhow so they just speculate.

    Yeah and those same Monster just may be taking slin....hmmmm

    You wanna try Oats and Slin, me thinks not. I agree with I**mfkr, your diet can be shit and you can still look huge, genetics and drugs can take care of most things.
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  17. #57
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    Insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I enhance human skeletal muscle protein anabolism during hyperaminoacidemia by different mechanisms.

    Fryburg DA, Jahn LA, Hill SA, Oliveras DM, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908, USA.

    Insulin inhibits proteolysis in human muscle thereby increasing protein anabolism. In contrast, IGF-I promotes muscle protein anabolism principally by stimulating protein synthesis. As increases or decreases of plasma amino acids may affect protein turnover in muscle and also alter the muscle's response to insulin and/or IGF-I, this study was designed to examine the effects of insulin and IGF-I on human muscle protein turnover during hyperaminoacidemia. We measured phenylalanine balance and [3H]-phenylalanine kinetics in both forearms of 22 postabsorptive adults during a continuous [3H] phenylalanine infusion. Measurements were made basally and at 3 and 6 h after beginning a systemic infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture that raised arterial phenylalanine concentration about twofold. Throughout the 6 h, 10 subjects received insulin locally (0.035 mU/min per kg) into one brachial artery while 12 other subjects were given intraaterial IGF-I (100 ng/min per kg) to raise insulin or IGF-I concentrations, respectively, in the infused arm. The contralateral arm in each study served as a simultaneous control for the effects of amino acids (aa) alone. Glucose uptake and lactate release increased in the insulin- and IGF-I-infused forearms (P < 0.01) but did not change in the contralateral (aa alone) forearm in either study. In the aa alone arm in both studies, hyperaminoacidemia reversed the postabsorptive net phenylalanine release by muscle to a net uptake (P < 0.025, for each) due to a stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In the hormone-infused arms, the addition of either insulin or IGF-I promoted greater positive shifts in phenylalanine balance than the aa alone arm (P < 0.01). With insulin, the enhanced anabolism was due to inhibition of protein degradation (P < 0.02), whereas IGF-I augmented anabolism by a further stimulation of protein synthesis above aa alone (P < 0.02). We conclude that: (a) hyperaminoacidemia specifically stimulates muscle protein synthesis; (b) insulin, even with hyperaminoacidemia, improves muscle protein balance solely by inhibiting proteolysis; and (c) hyperaminoacidemia combined with IGF-I enhances protein synthesis more than either alone
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  18. #58
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    I am with you and hope you didnt take my post the wrong way......I can't stqand the feeling of taking dext.....I am getting nice results off of a cold organic cereal and a whey shake (40g pro, 60 carbs) and some rice cakes....followed by 1 cup oats and 6oz meat 45 minutes later...too each his own bro

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by I**mfkr
    It was an analogy, there will be guys that eat poodle shit and look great and swear by it, one supplement or meal isn't going to make or break a bodybuilder is the point.. People put too much emphasis on the small things, again genetics play a huge role also in how much someone can get away with. You'd just have to tinker with it and see, if dextrose works for you Great, take it.. but obviously you'd have to try both ways for a prolonged period of time and observe every aspect of your training/rest/diet to tell which chain was weak on the link.. Most people never really learn their bodies well enough to tell anyhow so they just speculate.
    I eat poodle shit.

  20. #60
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    Insulin sensitivity of protein and glucose metabolism in human forearm skeletal muscle.

    Louard RJ, Fryburg DA, Gelfand RA, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.

    Physiologic increases of insulin promote net amino acid uptake and protein anabolism in forearm skeletal muscle by restraining protein degradation. The sensitivity of this process to insulin is not known. Using the forearm perfusion method, we infused insulin locally in the brachial artery at rates of 0.00 (saline control), 0.01, 0.02, 0.035, or 0.05 mU/min per kg for 150 min to increase local forearm plasma insulin concentration by 0, approximately 20, approximately 35, approximately 60, and approximately 120 microU/ml (n = 35). L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine and L-[1-14C]leucine were infused systemically, and the net forearm balance, rate of appearance (Ra) and rate of disposal (R(d)) of phenylalanine and leucine, and forearm glucose balance were measured basally and in response to insulin infusion. Compared to saline, increasing rates of insulin infusion progressively increased net forearm glucose uptake from 0.9 mumol/min per 100 ml (saline) to 1.0, 1.8, 2.4, and 4.7 mumol/min per 100 ml forearm, respectively. Net forearm balance for phenylalanine and leucine was significantly less negative than basal (P < 0.01 for each) in response to the lowest dose insulin infusion, 0.01 mU/min per kg, and all higher rates of insulin infusion. Phenylalanine and leucine R(a) declined by approximately 38 and 40% with the lowest dose insulin infusion. Higher doses of insulin produced no greater effect (decline in R(a) varied between 26 and 42% for phenylalanine and 30-50% for leucine). In contrast, R(d) for phenylalanine and leucine did not change with insulin. We conclude that even modest increases of plasma insulin can markedly suppress proteolysis, measured by phenylalanine R(a), in human forearm skeletal muscle. Further increments of insulin within the physiologic range augment glucose uptake but have little additional effect on phenylalanine R(a) or balance. These results suggest that proteolysis in human skeletal muscle is more sensitive than glucose uptake to physiologic increments in insulin.
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  21. #61
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    Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance exercise.

    Biolo G, Williams **, Fleming RY, Wolfe RR.

    Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, and the Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston, USA.

    We have determined the individual and combined effects of insulin and prior exercise on leg muscle protein synthesis and degradation, amino acid transport, glucose uptake, and alanine metabolism. Normal volunteers were studied in the postabsorptive state at rest and about 3 h after a heavy leg resistance exercise routine. The leg arteriovenous balance technique was used in combination with stable isotopic tracers of amino acids and biopsies of the vastus lateralis muscle. Insulin was infused into a femoral artery to increase the leg insulin concentrations to high physiologic levels without substantively affecting the whole-body level. Protein synthesis and degradation were determined as rates of intramuscular phenylalanine utilization and appearance, and muscle fractional synthetic rate (FSR) was also determined. Leg blood flow was greater after exercise than at rest (P<0.05). Insulin accelerated blood flow at rest but not after exercise (P<0.05). The rates of protein synthesis and degradation were greater during the postexercise recovery (65+/-10 and 74+/-10 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively) than at rest (30+/-7 and 46+/-8 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively; P<0.05). Insulin infusion increased protein synthesis at rest (51+/-4 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) but not during the postexercise recovery (64+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume; P<0.05). Insulin infusion at rest did not change the rate of protein degradation (48+/-3 nmol x min(-1) 100 ml(-1) leg volume). In contrast, insulin infusion after exercise significantly decreased the rate of protein degradation (52+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume). The insulin stimulatory effects on inward alanine transport and glucose uptake were three times greater during the postexercise recovery than at rest (P<0.05). In contrast, the insulin effects on phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine transport were similar at rest and after exercise. In conclusion, the ability of insulin to stimulate glucose uptake and alanine transport and to suppress protein degradation in skeletal muscle is increased after resistance exercise. Decreased amino acid availability may limit the stimulatory effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.

    In this study we see that insulin "infusion" does nothin in the Post workout timeframe in regards to Protein Sythesis (Muscle Building).

    However it does increase the prevention of protein breakdown. But as you can see in the stuides above the amount of insulin need to suppress proteolysis is "Modest".
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    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise
    Scot R. Kimball1, Peter A. Farrell2, and Leonard S. Jefferson1

    1 Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey 17033; and 2 Noll Physiology Research Center, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802

    Protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is modulated in response to a variety of stimuli. Two stimuli receiving a great deal of recent attention are increased amino acid availability and exercise. Both of these effectors stimulate protein synthesis in part through activation of translation initiation. However, the full response of translation initiation and protein synthesis to either effector is not observed in the absence of a minimal concentration of insulin. The combination of insulin and either increased amino acid availability or endurance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis in part through activation of the ribosomal protein S6 protein kinase S6K1 as well as through enhanced association of eukaryotic initiation factor eIF4G with eIF4E, an event that promotes binding of mRNA to the ribosome. In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation. This review summarizes the results of a number of recent studies that have helped to establish our present understanding of the interactions of insulin, amino acids, and exercise in the regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle
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    BCAA intake affects protein metabolism in muscle after but not during exercise in humans.

    Blomstrand E, Saltin B.

    Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Rigshospitalet, DK-2200 Copenhagen N, Denmark. [email protected]

    Branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) or a placebo was given to seven subjects during 1 h of ergometer cycle exercise and a 2-h recovery period. Intake of BCAA did not influence the rate of exchange of the aromatic amino acids, tyrosine and phenylalanine, in the legs during exercise or the increase in their concentration in muscle. The increase was approximately 30% in both conditions. On the other hand, in the recovery period after exercise, a faster decrease in the muscle concentration of aromatic amino acids was found in the BCAA experiment (46% compared with 25% in the placebo condition). There was also a tendency to a smaller release (an average of 32%) of these amino acids from the legs during the 2-h recovery. The results suggest that BCAA have a protein-sparing effect during the recovery after exercise, either that protein synthesis has been stimulated and/or protein degradation has decreased, but the data during exercise are too variable to make any conclusions about the effects during exercise. The effect in the recovery period does not seem to be mediated by insulin.
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  24. #64
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    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
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  25. #65
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    Giants-
    Nice findings bro. I will keep them in my arsenal

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by usualsuspect
    Giants-
    Nice findings bro. I will keep them in my arsenal

    I'm locked and loaded dude.

    Sometimes I think I carry these wherever I go.
    "without your word you're a shell of a man" - Tupac

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giants11
    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
    Hyperinsulenemia alone is only anti-catabolic, not anabolic .

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anssi Manninen
    Hyperinsulenemia alone is only anti-catabolic, not anabolic.

    No question, I def agree there. And hyperaminoacidemia is anabolic . So combined the two and you get protein synthesis.

    My point is that a massive insulin spike is not needed. Not sure where you stand on that but swithcing from Hi GI to Low GI has had nothing but positive effects from me. And I base much of my choice to go with Low on the research presented.
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    I just found this. I have been reading tons of currant posts were people are taking dextrose, this bump is for them.

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    If anyone has an actual scientific journal entry that states eating dextrose as part of a PWO meal causes insulin sensitivity, please share it. I've never heard anything about insulin sensitivity unless you're the lucky victim of some disease or you're eating enough carbs to supply a herd of rhinos.

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    I'm for dex/malto.

    It could be that some individuals don't agree with dex/malto - that goes for everything else. Or it also could be the delivery system that some are using.

    For myself, I take 2/3 malto, 1/3 dex for a total of about 60g. I take it with whey iso. Everything gets mixed in about 1l of water and sipped over 1/2 hour. Maybe the key is the delivery system...

    Edit: On another note, don't think there is much difference between malto and dex. One extra carbon separates the two, but their behaviour is the same. Still, some people argue that dex can make you fat where as malto won't.

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68ss

    Did you not just read through this thread?? Then you should see that your article proves nothing in regards to muscle growth.

    However it is clear that oats are more nutritional than pure sugar.

    I am not trying to fight with you, just present the facts as some have done to me. I guess it is just harder for some people to acknowledge that they have been doing it all wrong and that they need to alter there view and practices for there own sake.

    For me even when I was downing dex shakes the back of my mind said, “this can’t be good for me” but I did it anyways, even though it made me feel like $hit afterwards. So it was easy for me to accept the “myth” of dextrose building muscle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrowingMuscle
    However it is clear that oats are more nutritional than pure sugar.
    Now, wait a minute. No one is even disputing the fact that oats are more nutritional than dex - that's a fact. But, PWO and its function, it's another story - I know, this will probably be debated forever...

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    Thanks finny. Finally, rational thought, how refreshing.

    Tunnelvision must suck.

    Quite honestly, Growingpainsinmyass, you have ZERO evidence that malto/dex PWO ( in the proper amounts) is WRONG!

    Oh wait, you have your Copy and Paste Evidence. My bad.
    Last edited by Kristofer68ss; 03-23-2007 at 05:21 PM.

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBdmfkr
    Dextrose is sugar plain and simple whereas like you stated maltodextrin is similar but I don't believe it is processed the same.
    I know you already know Bino but for the others out there for a better explanation I'll go into it a bit further.

    Dextrose is classified as a Monosaccharide, also called Glucose. Fructose is also in this category but has recently been found to enter the bloodstream slower and doesn't cause the rapid spike in bloodsugar levels as glucose(dextrose) does.

    Maltodextrin on the other hand is categorized as a Complex carbohydrate also known as a Polysaccharide (made up of chains of glucose). Being that it isn't technically a simple sugar and is bound to more than one sugar-molecule I feel as if the spike in bloodsugar is lower than dextrose (as I don't get the immediate spike and then the lack of energy shortly after ingestion).. Also keep in mind that I'm only doing a very minimal amount of Maltodextrin (25grams) mixed with Vitargo (15grams) totally 40grams of mixed carbohydrates Post Workout, unlike some other guys doing straight dextrose at well over 50-75grams.
    Something else to keep in mind is that fact that I use Insulin PWO which I didn't really want to mention but will to make my reasoning more clear.. As well as reading studies that show that 30-40grams of simple carbs actually help with the absorbtion and transportation of BCAA's.

    I've done all three ways; Dextrose PWO, complex carbs (oats/b.rice/pasta) PWO, and now a mixture of carbs PWO and all three work well but I didn't enjoy the crash from dextrose, can't take regular complex carbs PWO with insulin so I'm stuck using the mixture of carbs to keep from going hypo.
    Before I started the slin I would do 15g's liquid aminos with 10g's BCAA's followed by a PWO Meal 30mins later and it worked very well.

    Sorry for the length, just wanted to get a full explanation.. All ways work, just find which works best for You.
    I never noticed this thread but nonetheless...

    I-b-d What you stated is what my understanding is as well and inclusive to what Giants11 added:"Tru but Malto has a higher GI rating than Dex, 105 compared to 100 for dexrose. Meaning that even though it is complex it elevates blood sugar levels faster than Dex."

    If your goal is to increase the speed of nutrient aborpstion, would the following be false?

    The goal post workout is to digest nutrients (PWO shake) quickly so they are transported to our muscles. This process slows when the ingested fluid contains a high osmolarity concentration. The shorter chain length a carbohydrate has, the higher it raises the solution's osmolarity. A pure glucose (dextrose) solution induces very high concentrations of solute. A combination of dextrose and maltodextrin gives a solution with a decreased osmolarity so glucose will enter the blood as a faster rate.
    However, using only maltodextrine for this reason isn't optimal. A solution containing two substrates (in this case maltodexrin and dextrose) stimulates the activation of more transport mechanisms in the intestinal lumen, as opposed to just maltodextrin or dextrose alone. This way more carbohydrates are transported out of the small intestine and absorbed into the blood, leading to faster and greater circulation of carbohydrates.

    In my experience, in either case or side of the argument, I still need a meal within and 1 to 1.5 hours post workout since I feel the "crash" coming.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68ss
    Thanks finny. Finally, rational thought, how refreshing.

    Tunnelvision must suck.

    Quite honestly, Growingpainsinmyass, you have ZERO evidence that malto/dex PWO ( in the proper amounts) is WRONG!

    Oh wait, you have your Copy and Paste Evidence. My bad.
    Don’t take it so personal bro. We are all here to learn.

  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giants11
    Actually fella's its quite simple.

    You do not want to spike insulin sky high, ever. Esp. since elevated insulin within physiological levels does not stimulate protein synthesis.

    Spikin your insulin is not very good for you and consuming whole grains over processed sugar is an obvious health benefit. If you were to argue against that, I'd label you retarded.
    thank god someone knows what their talking bout.
    yesssss clap clap.

  39. #79
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    eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek this is a very old thread, who got this going again.

    dear god now we look stupid, who posted in this thread today.

    damn it!

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by collar
    eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek this is a very old thread, who got this going again.

    dear god now we look stupid, who posted in this thread today.

    damn it!
    i feel 100x better just sippin on bcass no pw shakes.....meal hour later

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