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An ok meal to have when in a pinch? Wouldn't you agree?
Better then whey with water since the milk slows down the digestion, and the kcals in 1 small glass off low fat milk are not that high to be concerned about...
I also see it as a meal to down in the middle of the night while I'm taking a piss...
Thoughts?
:)
This would make for a great PWO meal.
Whey and skim milk make a good substitute for a meal when you're in a bind and without food. As for the middle of the night, why not unless you're cutting. :) It'd be much better if it was casein protein though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bor
Yup I agree, can't get the d@mn thing over here though, and I'm too lazy to order it over the netQuote:
Originally Posted by 1buffsob
I still like something that digests a bit faster for PWO...like dex whey, its a time to keep things simple IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by audis4
milk is low gi anyway so go ahead :) I prefer doing whey with unflavored yoghurt though and some frozen berries. Damn thats good.
First, despite its low glycemic index, milk paradoxically has an exteme high insulin index similar to white bread. So in regard to insulin metabolism, milk is no better than high gi load carbs like bread, pizza, bagels, potatoes and almost all processed food.
Overall, I think dairy, like all neolithic foods, can be problematic for certian individuals. If you have a history of autoimmunity in your family for example would certianly limit its consumption.
I'm dairy free and can tell a big difference. Feel lighter, digestion seems to work better. I notice a very real bloated feeling if I eat dairy products now. I cut it out somewhat slowly until I was down to only milk in coffee and whatever was in the protein powder but finally eliminated those sources as well. Don't miss or crave it at all now.
but it doesnt cause hyperglycemia so its not as harmfull as high GI food.
I think some groups of people have almost fully adjusted to diary. For instance among scandinavians lactose intolerance is rare. I dont remember any exact figures, but its like less than 5% or so. But among africans I seem to remember its as high as 50%.
So it seems to be a individual thing. I have (thank god for that) never noticed any difference when I use diary and when I avoid it :) I love my whey and yoghurt shakes. Yum yum :D
You might be interested in this one btw. About the diary it might very well be the protein in diary that causes the extra insulin release.
abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/5/1264
whole thing
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/66/5/1264.pdf (takes a while to load)
Im anoyed that they didnt test unflavored yoghurt, beans that are not baked and a few other things...
more
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
Whole thingQuote:
BACKGROUND: Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low GI. The insulinotropic mechanism of milk has not been elucidated. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to evaluate the effect of common dietary sources of animal or vegetable proteins on concentrations of postprandial blood glucose, insulin, amino acids, and incretin hormones [glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1] in healthy subjects. DESIGN: Twelve healthy volunteers were served test meals consisting of reconstituted milk, cheese, whey, cod, and wheat gluten with equivalent amounts of lactose. An equicarbohydrate load of white-wheat bread was used as a reference meal. RESULTS: A correlation was found between postprandial insulin responses and early increments in plasma amino acids; the strongest correlations were seen for leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. A correlation was also obtained between responses of insulin and GIP concentrations. Reconstituted milk powder and whey had substantially lower postprandial glucose areas under the curve (AUCs) than did the bread reference (-62% and -57%, respectively). Whey meal was accompanied by higher AUCs for insulin (90%) and GIP (54%). CONCLUSIONS: It can be concluded that food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids. Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/80/5/1246.pdf
So in essence it seems like drinking milk causes the same insulin release as eating a low gi carb and some whey protein.
Is it an individual thing? More than 30 million Americans - including many of recent African and Asian descent-cannot digest the principal sugar in milk very long after they have been weaned from their mother's breasts. In fact, the weaning of most breast-fed children in the world may be precipitated by a gradual decline the activit of lactase, an enzyme that breaks down the lactose into easily digestable glucose and galactose(I googled some of this:wg:).
In any case, certain ethnic populations (strongly correlated with the distribution of ancient herding ppl in Europe, Asia Minor, and Northern Africa and more prevalant in Native American communities) suffer bloating , indigestion, and in severe cases, intestinal cramping and diarrhea if exposed to as little as four ounces of raw milk. That is pretty significant if you ask me. Whether or not you are genetically predisposed to lactase deficiency depedends upon how recently your ancestors adopted livestock and adapted to a novel set of nutritional opportunities associated with milk cows, goats, sheep or water buffalo.
I think these numbers (of ppl who are lactose intolerant) ultimately suggest that a major cultural change leading to an evolutionary, biological change has taken place.
If one buys into evolution (some do not) then we are looking at the genome of our species being virtually unchanged from the time we migrated from africa somewhere between 120-200k years ago. That sounds like a long time but the rate of evolution makes this a fairly insignificant time span.
Prior to the emergence of our species there were ~2 million years of pretty heavy carnivory with no dairy until very recently.
All that can be drawn from any of this is that certain substances have a higher probability of causing pathology than others. For example comercially farmed, grain fed meat has unfortunately little in common with the meat obtained from free range animals. There are constituents found in conventional meat that can raise the probability of say heart disease if one agrees with Loren Cordain and some other people on this topic. This is why Cordain and others recomend lean protein sources and supplemental n-3's to try to ballance things out.
Bottom line however is how do you feel when you eat it vs when you do not?
If you experience no problems drinking it, then by all means knock yourself dead (not literally:) Just realize most people can't drink milk (and whey) without experiencing all the nasty sides for a reason.
Last point: Become an expert on what works for you. You'll be way ahead.
Just my $0.02
Quote:
Originally Posted by johan
Forgot to mention whey is usually the cheapest form of protein available, gram for gram.
Johan,
Just because you drink a glass of milk and "feel" fine doesn't mean that it's not doing you any harm. It also may not be of any benefit either.
Our modern society has evolved to expect instantaneous results from anything and everything. If we have a headache, simply pop a pill and it goes away in 30 mins. There are people that smoke for decades and "feel" fine, actually they feel better having a cigarette than if they go without. But then they wake up one day with a hacking cough of blood and discover that they somehow got cancer.
Now I'm not saying that dairy is as bad as smoking, but we need to weigh all of the evidence both past and present and draw our own conclusions which point in favor of personal long term health and well being.
To me, it just seems down right weird that we are the only species on the planet that continues to consume milk after adolescence, not to mention that fact that countries consuming the most dairy have the highest incidences of osteoporosis (Denmark being #1).
Quote:
Originally Posted by johan
But in the nordic countries for instance and other places where diary products have been used for a long time the people continue to produce lactase all through out there lifes. This has been shown. So there must have been a fairly rapid adaption to milk. Those that continued to produce lactase through out there life probably had a big enough advantage over others I recon.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
But the genome isnt static and homogeneous. Some people all the time through out human existance could tolerate milk. So its not a matter of a genetic change, its just a trait that was there all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Well most people in scandinavia can drink it without any problem ;) Scandinavians are (and has been for a long time) huge milk consumers and we also have the longest lifespands in the world so obviously if a person isnt lactose intollerant milk is certanly not detrimental.
The benifits offcourse are the imune system enhancing and antioxidant properties of some milk proteins and the proteins itself. The probiotics in yoghurt ect. I belive diary are very good for people that can tollerate it.
Well we humans do alot of things that no other spieces does. But from the things I have read milk is not a problem unless lactose intollerant. The pro's outweight the con's in my book :)Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Johan,
Besides the fact human beings are the only animals who consume milk after infancy--there are a number of reasons, not just lactose intolerance, that milk and dairy in general are less than ideal foods for big kids, and this is why they are "bad"--and consequently why they don't have a place in my diet.
You mention above that the milk is low on the gi scale. However, based on my research I've found the opposite to be true. According to Dr. Cordain, (well-established reputation in peer reviews) "Except for cheese with an insulin score of 45, all dairy products (whole milk, skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese and fermented milk products) have been shown to have potent insulinotropic properties that have far reaching health effects, given the hypothesis that insuliniaenmia is a modulator of insulin resistance (Ludwig 2002). Our data confirms the observation that consumption of milk induces a reactive hypoglycaemia."
You can read the complete article here: http://www.thepaleodiet.com/published_research/
I just have to point out that Loren Cordain has a PhD in exercise phys. He has published papers on:
Rheumatoid arthritis, acne, auto immunity, near sighted ness and cancer to name a few topics and not in back water research journal. They are published in Acta Dermatology, Ophthalmology, British Journal of medicine, British journal of nutrition. This is UNHEARD of in science. He publishes at the top of the field in subjects he has NO specialization in. This is like a molecular biologist contributing something to solid-state physics. It�s not likely to happen. Do you know how he does this? In his words "When you know the answer it is easy to retro engineer the question".
Virtually no one else is even on the same planet with this guy. Nutritional Sciences forgot they are a science and they are mucking around with a false reductionism that doesn't produce any answers because they lack a theoretical framework from which to view it.
In my mind it is a matter of taking available information and thoery and making informed decisions (if you want to). Our genes have certainly changed a bit since agriculture but those adaptations have allowed people to tollerate certain things more than others, not thrive. I believe that is the case with dairy.
Some people tollerate it better than others, but thrive is completely different story.
PS On a side note, are you still struggling with your weight Johan? I know its been quite some time since I was a regular in the Diet Section.
I would be interested in getting more info about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
The anti milk info I have found on the net seems as biased as the anti soy info so I havent realy bothered to ever look into it more carefully since its so hard to cut through the bullshit and find the gems...
Well yeah insulinotropic yes, the things I posted earlier support this. But they are still low on the gi scale and doesnt cause hyperglycemia(or as the part you quoted points out, it even causes hypoglycemia) so they are not as harmfull as high gi food that not only cause the insulin spike but also hyperglycemia. Hyperglycemia seems to be what is most damaging to the cardiovascular system.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Insulin resistance I dont realy worry about, all my carbs except from the yoghurt+whey shake once every day or every other day comes from fruit, veggies and beans so my blood glucose is always stable :)
Im acctualy very sceptical about people publishing things in a field they have no formal education in. Its like a engineering trying to contribute to theoretical physics, it usualy ends up bad. Im defenetly not saying that is the case here :) But I dont consider it a merit. Offcourse Linus Pauling was a chemist and still contributed to the life sciences so it does happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Cant comment on that since I dont know much about nutritional science. I never have any time over to read :(Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
But since nordic people has some of the longest lifespans in the world and are huge milk consumers it atleast indicates that diary isnt detrimental to lifespan. It atleast indicates to me that diary is ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
But remeber diary is good for fat loss, yoghurt is packed with probiotics and proteins that boost imune system and acts like antioxidants, whey protects against ulcers. There are alot of benifits with diary aswell. So it would take alot to convince me that diary products are detrimental to people that are not intollerant to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
Not struggling nah. I dont have any time nowdays to focus on either training or diet so Im just keeping my weight at around 90-95 kg. Not lean but not awfully fat either. Around 14% bf I guess. My body seems to always stabilise around that point when I relax a bit with my diet.Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect
100% of my focus is on getting through classes with as good grades as possible :7up:
You should come here more often :)