Eating on OFF days

[ckyass]

Just have a question running through my head id like to throw at you guys.
Im 200 lbs, 14% bodyfat and im currently Bulking. My diet looks like this.


8:30: 50 grams pro, 100 grams of complex carbs
10:30: 50 grams pro, veggies
12:30: 50 grams pro, veggies
2:30: 50 grams pro, veggies, FLAX OIL
5:30: 50 grams pro, 75 Grams of complex carbs
7:00: WORKOUT
8:30: PWO SHAKE 50 grams Whey, 100 grams of waxy maize
9:30: PPWO Meal 50 grams protien, 75 grams of complex carbs
11:30: Milk with Casien shake, FLAX SEED OIL
12:00:SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP ZZZZZZZZZZZZ


This turns into 400 grams of protien coming from ALL lean meat, i do NOT use protien shakes to replace meals..I'm very dedicated with my eating. 350 grams of carbs.

NOW my question is..... how many grams of carbs should i eat on my OFF days. I'm thinking somewhere around 150? Maybe 100 with breakfast and 50grams midday? Obviously im doing a clean bulk and want to keep fat to a minimum, keep in mind in natural and cycle free. Hit me back with your opinions, Much appreciated dudes!

[taiboxa]

i would definetly split that 100g carbs into the other vegie meals and make it a more even distribution so that you have a trickle of carbs instead of a splash

[sorel_C]

i say lower your protein a bit and just keep cals the same day in day out,,, when you cut,, is when cycling calroies has more of a benefit

[taiboxa]

i just decrease my cals according to my change in caloric expenditure but keep my macros the same.

[ckyass]

Im not going to lower my protein, i keep my protein the same all year with either cutting or bulking and it works well for me. However CARBS change from cut to bulk. I have a desk job and i dont move at all so whats the reason for taking carbs than? I understand when you say a trickle of carbs throughout the day but why take energy when im not expanding any? This is why im asking if carbs should remain the same during OFF days or be lowered?

[taiboxa]

Im not going to lower my protein, i keep my protein the same all year with either cutting or bulking and it works well for me. However CARBS change from cut to bulk. I have a desk job and i dont move at all so whats the reason for taking carbs than? I understand when you say a trickle of carbs throughout the day but why take energy when im not expanding any? This is why im asking if carbs should remain the same during OFF days or be lowered?

so you think its better to lump 100g of carbs am than to split it into .. say 35g of carb per first 3 meals?
if you dont use that 100g carbs which.. you wont unless ur doing triathalon training in the am.. then ur going to store it regardless whether it be glycogen or fat. the ideal method for bulking w/o fat storage is to maintain an even distribution of macros through out the day so your body KNOWS what to expect and use it most efficiently.

[ckyass]

well the 100 grams for breakfast would be replacing alot of the glycogen i burned when sleeping no? Im not saying your wrong..... i appreciate any input. So you think splitting the carb meals up would lead to less fat storage? What about on OFF days.... When and how should carbs be split up than in your opinion? And how many grams? An off day for me doesnt include any major activity...i'll sit at a desk for 8 hours, go food shopping, run some errands, get laid, and thats about it.

[sorel_C]

you dont use carbs when sleeping,, and if you did you wouldt use 100 GRAMS! but yea split your daily intake evenly,,, as for how much thats up too you,, personallly if i was bulking i would't change my daily macro's,,, ive used that approach 2 years n i seem to manage pretty well staying under 12% bf

[taiboxa]

well the 100 grams for breakfast would be replacing alot of the glycogen i burned when sleeping no? Im not saying your wrong..... i appreciate any input. So you think splitting the carb meals up would lead to less fat storage? What about on OFF days.... When and how should carbs be split up than in your opinion? And how many grams? An off day for me doesnt include any major activity...i'll sit at a desk for 8 hours, go food shopping, run some errands, get laid, and thats about it.

click the link in my signature "HERE" and read away

[ckyass]

Ok i read it..... and it seems to be directed more towards people on cycle.

[taiboxa]

Ok i read it..... and it seems to be directed more towards people on cycle.

the dietary information is the same regardless of being on or off.

[perfectbeast2001]

on non workout days you will drop 100g carbs and 50g pro just due to lack of shake. I would leave it at that.

[goose]

the dietary information is the same regardless of being on or off.

tai-When you did the carb cycling cutting diet with days of no carbs,did you train on them days? Whats your synopsis of this strategy?? Results and would you use this method again? Thanks big dude..

[ckyass]

thx beast

[ckyass]

Ive reconstructed my bulking diet to look like this in regards to CARBS
Bulking Carbs-ON DAYS
8:30 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 40 grams of carbs
12:30: 25 grams of carbs
3:30: 40 grams of carbs
Pre workout- 5:30: 50 grams of carbs
Post workout shakes- 100 grams of carbs
Post workout meal - 50 carbs
355 Total

Bulking Carbs-OFF DAYS
8:30: 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 35 grams of carbs
12:30: 35 grams of carbs
3:30: 45 grams of carbs
5:30: 45 grams of carbs
7:30: 35 grams of carbs
245 Total

[Narkissos]

You're stuck in the 'more is better' rut w/ regard to protein consumption.

For your LBM (172 lbs) you're taking in way too much protein.

You're past 1 gr/lb of LBM.. even past 2gr/lb LBM

Specifically for a natural that is way too much.

You can't bump protein synthesis to support consumption of that magnitude.

At any rate the body exists in cycles...

It also responds best to cycles.

Your protein and carbs both should be cycled to make your body more responsive to either.

It's been proven that a cyclic reduction in either increases sensitivity to (and hoarding of) the specific macronutrient... upon its reintroduction.

I'd seriously rethink your entire diet.

re: off-day carb consumption.

You recover on off-days.

This requires calories.

Food is fuel for workouts... but it also supplies the building blocks for repair.

Insulin is the transporter...as well as the CBG/corticosteroid mediator.

In addition to this... you overlook glycogen replenishment...which is a continual process.

It doesn't cease because the 'pwo window' closes.

Let's see... glycogen replenishment + cortisol mediation + amino acid transport (I'll leave all the additional benefits out)

= a need for insulin release on off days.

Simply put, you need carbs on your off-day.

Or you could go the expensive route, supplementing Leucine at regular interval tru-out the day on off days.

It'd make more sense however, to rethink your diet.

Good luck

-Narkissos

[perfectbeast2001]

Hey Nark! When did you get back!!

[Narkissos]

Hey Nark! When did you get back!!

Dunno...

Woke up one morning and found myself at the keyboard typing.

Had been transported back into the AR-dimension in my sleep.

Somebody better sticky this thread... Time to shred dietary misconceptions

-CNS

[Mr Tick]

I was not around for Pinnacle but can anyone tell me why he got banned. He has a lot of really informative posts on lots of different subjects. Just wondering.

[ckyass]

Hmmm thx for the reply nark, so how much protien would you suggest? Everyone seems to have different opinions, i was under the impression that 2 grams per lb of bodyweight was ideal for someone wanting to put on the most muscle possible. Everything i've read suggested that, and its what i learned at ISSA aswell.

[Narkissos]

Hmmm thx for the reply nark, so how much protien would you suggest? Everyone seems to have different opinions, i was under the impression that 2 grams per lb of bodyweight was ideal for someone wanting to put on the most muscle possible. Everything i've read suggested that, and its what i learned at ISSA aswell.

Oh no.. not ISSA!

lol.

No offense to them personally, as I am an affiliate of their services. (long story)

Back to your questions... 2 gr/lb is a shitload of protein.

And unless you're ingesting substances which significantly bump protein synthesis, you're wasting your money.

Do some research on what the truly natural pros are doing.

Layne Norton, natural pro & Phd candidate advises no more than 1.5 gr/lb

Although his protein range is .75-1.5gr/lb ...with 1 gr/lb LBM being average.

And this is the guy with a physique that trounces a lot of juiced guys.

This is the same guy with at least one published peer-reviewed study on leucine and protein synthesis. (you might want to check that out..in case you want to invest in leucine for its potential effect on protein synthesis.. especially if you go wtih 1.5 gr per lb of LBM)

He revised a lot of his protein recommendations after he realized how wasteful we were.

I have to admit that while his writings prior were somewhat sound...I was not a fan of him until his protein suggestions came in line with my own.

lol..shameless self-plug on my part.

It's time people stop listening to supplement companies and start listening to their bodies.

Protein in excess will make you fat.

Protein in excess, in the presence of other macronutrients consumed to excess, will also influence insulin secretion... keeping you fat.

re: glucogenic amino acids

Calculate your TDEE and work backwards from that point.

There is NO reason to mindlessly pile food in.

More is not better.

Good luck

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Oh no.. not ISSA!

lol.

No offense to them personally, as I am an affiliate of their services. (long story)

Back to your questions... 2 gr/lb is a shitload of protein.

And unless you're ingesting substances which significantly bump protein synthesis, you're wasting your money.

Do some research on what the truly natural pros are doing.

Layne Norton, natural pro & Phd candidate advises no more than 1.5 gr/lb

Although his protein range is .75-1.5gr/lb ...with 1 gr/lb LBM being average.

And this is the guy with a physique that trounces a lot of juiced guys.

This is the same guy with at least one published peer-reviewed study on leucine and protein synthesis. (you might want to check that out..in case you want to invest in leucine for its potential effect on protein synthesis.. especially if you go wtih 1.5 gr per lb of LBM)

He revised a lot of his protein recommendations after he realized how wasteful we were.

I have to admit that while his writings prior were somewhat sound...I was not a fan of him until his protein suggestions came in line with my own.

lol..shameless self-plug on my part.

It's time people stop listening to supplement companies and start listening to their bodies.

Protein in excess will make you fat.

Protein in excess, in the presence of other macronutrients consumed to excess, will also influence insulin secretion... keeping you fat.

re: glucogenic amino acids

Calculate your TDEE and work backwards from that point.

There is NO reason to mindlessly pile food in.

More is not better.

Good luck

-CNS

by the way... my protein intake personally has always been .75-1 gr/lb of bodyweight (in offseason) or LBM (precontest)

I have gone higher (never lower, 'cept when carb-loading).

On higher amounts all i got was the smell of amonia to my sweat.

No additional muscle gain.

'Fast' and bodybuilding don't go together.

Adjust your diet, and be consistent in that and your training...and you will succeed.

That is my humble belief.



-CNS

[ckyass]

I am a big fan of Layne, he also suggest eating 5-6 bigger meals a day rather than 8-9 smaller ones... and HEY! if eating 1 gram of protein per lb is better, than im thrilled! I eat so much god damn food its starting to make me dread the next one. Im pretty sure Lee haney also believed in 1 gram per lb of bodyweight and he was a beast regardless of the juice. I know ISSA isnt anything special, TRUST ME...i felt like i knew more than the instructor. I am going to take what you said into consideration and lower my protein intake. I am going to still follow my bulk carb split as follows BUT will lower my protien intake from 50 grams each meal to 25. I'm going to still take 50 grams whey PWO with my waxy maize.

Bulking Carbs-ON DAYS
8:30 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 40 grams of carbs
12:30: 25 grams of carbs
3:30: 40 grams of carbs
Pre workout- 5:30: 50 grams of carbs
Post workout shakes- 100 grams of carbs
Post workout meal - 50 carbs
355 Total

Bulking Carbs-OFF DAYS
8:30: 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 35 grams of carbs
12:30: 35 grams of carbs
3:30: 45 grams of carbs
5:30: 45 grams of carbs
7:30: 35 grams of carbs
245 Total

Now i eat every 2 hours.....Do you agree with this?

[abbot138]

on non workout days you will drop 100g carbs and 50g pro just due to lack of shake. I would leave it at that.

Exactly. If anything you could up your healthy fat intake to help joint recovery and make up for some of the lost calories. I would keep calorie intake on off days at about 16cal/lb of weight. Dropping cal down on off days will help trick your body into getting bigger during the bulk.

[Narkissos]

I am a big fan of Layne, he also suggest eating 5-6 bigger meals a day rather than 8-9 smaller ones... and HEY! if eating 1 gram of protein per lb is better, than im thrilled! I eat so much god damn food its starting to make me dread the next one. Im pretty sure Lee haney also believed in 1 gram per lb of bodyweight and he was a beast regardless of the juice. I know ISSA isnt anything special, TRUST ME...i felt like i knew more than the instructor. I am going to take what you said into consideration and lower my protein intake. I am going to still follow my bulk carb split as follows BUT will lower my protien intake from 50 grams each meal to 25. I'm going to still take 50 grams whey PWO with my waxy maize.

Bulking Carbs-ON DAYS
8:30 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 40 grams of carbs
12:30: 25 grams of carbs
3:30: 40 grams of carbs
Pre workout- 5:30: 50 grams of carbs
Post workout shakes- 100 grams of carbs
Post workout meal - 50 carbs
355 Total

Bulking Carbs-OFF DAYS
8:30: 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 35 grams of carbs
12:30: 35 grams of carbs
3:30: 45 grams of carbs
5:30: 45 grams of carbs
7:30: 35 grams of carbs
245 Total

Now i eat every 2 hours.....Do you agree with this?

At your weight, the exclusion of a weight-training session will decrease calorie expenditure by 20-30%

...Erring towards 20% because you didn't state whether or not you do cardio.

Thus if you're reducing your overall kcal intake based on the reduced exertion.. and you're specifically interested in lowering carbs primarily, the 20% reduction should come from such.

Revising your diet structure... reducing from 50-25 gr of protein per meal puts you at 1 gr/lb bodyweight.

let's see... what you posted above =

200 gr pro; 355 gr carbs; unlisted fat [on training days]

200 gr pro; 245 gr carbs; unlisted fat [on non-training days]

=440 kcal reduction

which is less than a 20% drop.. but appreciable none-the-less.

My question to you would be...

Bulking Carbs-OFF DAYS
8:30: 50 grams of carbs
10:30: 35 grams of carbs
12:30: 35 grams of carbs
3:30: 45 grams of carbs
5:30: 45 grams of carbs
7:30: 35 grams of carbs
245 Total

If you're not working out...why is your carb-consumption all over the place?

Keep it equal tru-out the day.. or have it diminish.

No raising and lowering.

re: 3:30/5:30 meals v.s. preceding meals.

-CNS

[ckyass]

Ok i will diminish carbs as the day goes on, Thanks buddy.

[ckyass]

Ok so after all the great advice, here is what i have constructed for the remainder of my BULK.

ON DAY
8:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 50 grams of complex carbs
11:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
1:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
3:30: 25 grams pro, veggies, 35 grams of complex carbs, FLAX SEED OIL
5:30: 25 grams pro, Vegies , 50 Grams of complex carbs
7:00: WORKOUT
8:30: PWO SHAKE 50 grams Whey, 100 grams of waxy maize
9:30: PPWO Meal 25 grams protien, 50 grams of complex carbs
11:30: 25 grams of Casien, FLAX SEED OIL
12:00:SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
225g of protien, 355g of Carbs, 40g Grams of FAT

OFF DAY
OFF days
8:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 50 grams of complex carbs
10:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
12:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
2:30: 25 grams pro, veggies, 35 grams of complex carbs, FLAX SEED OIL
5:30: 25 grams pro, Vegies , 35 Grams of complex carbs
7:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 25 grams of complex carbs
9:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 10 grams of complex carbs
11:30: 25 grams of Casien, FLAX SEED OIL
12:00:SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
200g of protien, 225g of Carbs, 30g Grams of FAT


Hows it look?

[taiboxa]

tai-When you did the carb cycling cutting diet with days of no carbs,did you train on them days? Whats your synopsis of this strategy?? Results and would you use this method again? Thanks big dude..

normally i would only do cardio on those days and push back the resistance training to a day that actually included carbs.. i would definetly use that method again - it worked very well.

[Narkissos]

Ok so after all the great advice, here is what i have constructed for the remainder of my BULK.

ON DAY
8:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 50 grams of complex carbs
11:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
1:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
3:30: 25 grams pro, veggies, 35 grams of complex carbs, FLAX SEED OIL
5:30: 25 grams pro, Vegies , 50 Grams of complex carbs
7:00: WORKOUT
8:30: PWO SHAKE 50 grams Whey, 100 grams of waxy maize
9:30: PPWO Meal 25 grams protien, 50 grams of complex carbs
11:30: 25 grams of Casien, FLAX SEED OIL
12:00:SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
225g of protien, 355g of Carbs, 40g Grams of FAT

OFF DAY
OFF days
8:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 50 grams of complex carbs
10:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
12:30: 25 grams pro, veggies , 35 grams of complex carbs
2:30: 25 grams pro, veggies, 35 grams of complex carbs, FLAX SEED OIL
5:30: 25 grams pro, Vegies , 35 Grams of complex carbs
7:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 25 grams of complex carbs
9:30: 25 grams pro, Veggies , 10 grams of complex carbs
11:30: 25 grams of Casien, FLAX SEED OIL
12:00:SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
200g of protien, 225g of Carbs, 30g Grams of FAT


Hows it look?

Looks great

Get to work now

[ckyass]

Thanks nark ;-)

[ckyass]

just wanna comment, eating 25 grams of protein a meal is much nicer :-) im not shitting as much either now! HIGH FIVE